If you ask the guys that design/engineer speakers, most do not believe in the botique crossover parts route.
Yes some speakers use truly mediocre crossover parts, and can be improved, but not all..
Safe bet the engineers aren't going to use caps in the neighborhood of $200 to $1K per cap or more, especially when trying to get a series of speakers back on its feet.....throws the profit margin out the window as well as potential sales.
It's up to the consumer to take the product to that last possible 10% if they so desire....that's what makes this hobby even more fun.
If you ask the guys that design/engineer cars, most will not tell you to put a big fat turbo, higher flowing fuel injectors and fuel pump on any of their cars either.
changing XO capacitors isn't quite analogous to sticking a turbocharger on an engine.
In fact, it's not really like doing anything to an engine (i.e., anything that engine tweakers do) -- except, e.g., changing the spark plug wires.
Now, if one redesigned the XO, changed the frequencies; slopes, added (or removed) a Zobel network or changed EQ/contouring... that's more analogous, I would think.
It could, e.g., be argued that removing the Polyswitch from the ol' Polk XOs that used them for driver protection would be a non-conservative modification that might have... ahh... negative unintended consequences.
Allen Shaw is not a fan of the upgraded crossover route and didn't
think it did anything to the voicing of his speakers. (paraphrasing)
His comment was about his anniversary editions.
I'm not saying that modifications aren't useful if you know what
you are doing. I'm just saying that there are exceptions to the
Mod is better rule.
Alan Shaw also believes that amplifiers and speaker stands don’t matter. Look, I’m a Harbeth dealer, but I don’t sign off on his perception of audio. Sometimes I wonder if these ideas he spouts are simply veiled marketing to make people believe the speaker is the only thing that matters so spend all your money on those.
Thanks for the additional perspective Skip.
"So hot it burnsMice!"~DK
"Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
"Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
"Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
If you ask the guys that design/engineer speakers, most do not believe in the botique crossover parts route.
Yes some speakers use truly mediocre crossover parts, and can be improved, but not all..
Safe bet the engineers aren't going to use caps in the neighborhood of $200 to $1K per cap or more, especially when trying to get a series of speakers back on its feet.....throws the profit margin out the window as well as potential sales.
It's up to the consumer to take the product to that last possible 10% if they so desire....that's what makes this hobby even more fun.
Based on what a former speaker engineer told me (I won't say it was Polk but I am sure it happens many places), he would voice the speaker with better quality parts (film caps) but the budget guys would come in and push for more economical substitutes. He would apply measures like damping material to the PR and MW baskets that were nixed for the production product to save cost. It becomes a balancing act between what is best and what is cost effective for the production units.
Stan
Main 2ch:
Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.
If someone were to go all out with a DIY design and then stick with those speakers for the long term, then the time and money invested is totally worth it. Unfortunately, audio enthusiasts are a fickle bunch. We tend to gush all over our latest acquisition and then part with it, shortly thereafter, for the latest and greatest thing. This doesn’t apply to everyone but it does apply to the majority.
If someone were to go all out with a DIY design and then stick with those speakers for the long term, then the time and money invested is totally worth it. Unfortunately, audio enthusiasts are a fickle bunch. We tend to gush all over our latest acquisition and then part with it, shortly thereafter, for the latest and greatest thing. This doesn’t apply to everyone but it does apply to the majority.
As an amateur designer/builder of speakers, let me say: you just don't get it!
Speaker building is like eating potato chips. You can't stop with just one. It's fun and addicting. Choose drivers, then work up a design. After months of planning, build. Agonize over which veneer to use & how to finish it.
I have had much more return on my money with speaker building than I used to get from just buying a box someone else built!
And about selling them: WHAT!!! sell my babies!!! I have a house full of speakers. Then there are the ones I have given to family, friends, etc. But sell them, oh no!
If someone were to go all out with a DIY design and then stick with those speakers for the long term, then the time and money invested is totally worth it. Unfortunately, audio enthusiasts are a fickle bunch. We tend to gush all over our latest acquisition and then part with it, shortly thereafter, for the latest and greatest thing. This doesn’t apply to everyone but it does apply to the majority.
As an amateur designer/builder of speakers, let me say: you just don't get it!
Speaker building is like eating potato chips. You can't stop with just one. It's fun and addicting. Choose drivers, then work up a design. After months of planning, build. Agonize over which veneer to use & how to finish it.
I have had much more return on my money with speaker building than I used to get from just buying a box someone else built!
And about selling them: WHAT!!! sell my babies!!! I have a house full of speakers. Then there are the ones I have given to family, friends, etc. But sell them, oh no!
Cheers, Jim
For sure! Hey post some pics! Maybe start a new thread with pictures of your babies!
Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Can we please get back on topic as I'm trying to track a demo of these down in Ontario Canada.
How do the new L800 SDA compare to the Original Legend SDA-SRS 1.2TL?
Home Theater & Listening
RECEIVER Yamaha HTR6180 FRONT AMP McIntosh MC2125 THEATER AMP EMOTIVA XPA 7 FRONT Polk SDA 1B CENTER Polk CsiA4 SURROUND LR KEF Cresta 30 REAR Polk Monitor 5 SUB Tannoy TS 10 Subwoofer NAS 20 TB Raid 3 QNAP
Can we please get back on topic as I'm trying to track a demo of these down in Ontario Canada.
How do the new L800 SDA compare to the Original Legend SDA-SRS 1.2TL?
Both do SDA. The L800 doesn't go as low, is smaller and lighter than the 2.3TL. That said, the only way you will truly know what they sound like is to hear them.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
Dropping a 4 cylinder engine in a Camaro is "adequate" too, gets you around town, back and forth no problem. Who the heck wants that though. No doubt some will, but most won't.
People have to remember that a speaker company is a business, guided by profits. It's not there to swap dollars so you can afford them. The challenge is always going to be, how to put out a product, year after year, that offers improvements, in a market where your customer base has disposable income that keeps shrinking.....and the cost of doing business keeps rising.
Not as easy as one may think, to build mass produced speakers in such an environment, let alone ones that sound good to boot, and keep them reasonably affordable.
I personally think Polk has excelled in that endeavor. It's easy to see why higher end crossovers are not offered, not because they don't matter, but to keep costs and profits in line so they stay in business.
I would say WRONG!
Ask a dozen great DIY speaker engineers, who a few or more might also design for actual speaker companies, and the opinion on botique stuff is pretty well agreed on.
Has NOTHING to do with cost, but it is not seen as an improvement.
There is a small contingent in the audio community, that "believe" huge improvements are there when simply substituting parts of a higher cost, but some companies use them to pacify the ones expecting expensive caps and fancy binding posts.
A competently well designed crossover, is measure, simulated and can be improved by altering crossover slopes, high frequency attenuation and phase angles and notch filters and many other things, that will indeed alter the sound.
Money has to be put where it does the most good.
A non resonant cabinet, and decent drivers and a well designed and measured crossover.
Kind of silly to use $50.00 caps on woofers and tweeters that cost the company only a few dollars in bulk each.
Can we please get back on topic as I'm trying to track a demo of these down in Ontario Canada.
How do the new L800 SDA compare to the Original Legend SDA-SRS 1.2TL?
Both do SDA. The L800 doesn't go as low, is smaller and lighter than the 2.3TL. That said, the only way you will truly know what they sound like is to hear them.
I would say WRONG!
Ask a dozen great DIY speaker engineers, who a few or more might also design for actual speaker companies, and the opinion on botique stuff is pretty well agreed on.
The designers at Sonus faber and other high end speaker companies would disagree with this. Most speaker companies aren't going to come out and say "well, yes, our products could be improved if you replace the cheap, crappy crossover parts with higher quality parts".
Pass Laboratories is a boutique electronics manufacturer which uses boutique parts on their circuit boards. Even with that, Nelson Pass said that further improvements could be made. For example, when Nelson Pass was asked if it was possible to make a ''perfect'' X250.5 or X350.5 amplifier, he replied:
"No. The design is not perfect. When I create a perfect amplifier, I will disappear in a puff of smoke.
The X series is most easily improved by increasing the bias, which generally means better heat sinking and power supply.
There are the usual tweaks, your favorite capacitors, wire, resistors, etc, many of which work, adding some small measure of improvement.
It's not hard to form a list - unfortunately the items on it cost a lot of money. We have used all the economical approaches we know, and some that are not."
Has NOTHING to do with cost, but it is not seen as an improvement.
There is a small contingent in the audio community, that "believe" huge improvements are there when simply substituting parts of a higher cost, but some companies use them to pacify the ones expecting expensive caps and fancy binding posts.
A Polk engineer wasn't trying to pacify me when he advised me replace the electrolytic caps in my SDAs with high quality "boutique" film caps and to replace the lower quality mylar film caps with higher quality "boutique" polypropylene caps. He was quite forthright in explaining that some of their parts selections were due to cost and some were due to not being able to source higher quality components in sufficient quantities. Matthew Polk wasn't trying to pacify when he recommended replacing the stock SDA inductor with a large, high current toroidal inductor.
A competently well designed crossover, is measure, simulated and can be improved by altering crossover slopes, high frequency attenuation and phase angles and notch filters and many other things, that will indeed alter the sound.
You don't understand. The reason for using higher quality parts is not to "alter" the sound. The reason is to improve the sound by removing noise and distortions caused by lower quality parts.
"So hot it burnsMice!"~DK
"Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
"Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
"Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
Anyone not believing in high quality parts, contact @treitz3 his speakers are designed and built to change between stock and modified on the fly, two separate crossovers in one enclosure.
Dropping a 4 cylinder engine in a Camaro is "adequate" too, gets you around town, back and forth no problem. Who the heck wants that though. No doubt some will, but most won't.
People have to remember that a speaker company is a business, guided by profits. It's not there to swap dollars so you can afford them. The challenge is always going to be, how to put out a product, year after year, that offers improvements, in a market where your customer base has disposable income that keeps shrinking.....and the cost of doing business keeps rising.
Not as easy as one may think, to build mass produced speakers in such an environment, let alone ones that sound good to boot, and keep them reasonably affordable.
I personally think Polk has excelled in that endeavor. It's easy to see why higher end crossovers are not offered, not because they don't matter, but to keep costs and profits in line so they stay in business.
I would say WRONG!
Ask a dozen great DIY speaker engineers, who a few or more might also design for actual speaker companies, and the opinion on botique stuff is pretty well agreed on.
Has NOTHING to do with cost, but it is not seen as an improvement.
There is a small contingent in the audio community, that "believe" huge improvements are there when simply substituting parts of a higher cost, but some companies use them to pacify the ones expecting expensive caps and fancy binding posts.
A competently well designed crossover, is measure, simulated and can be improved by altering crossover slopes, high frequency attenuation and phase angles and notch filters and many other things, that will indeed alter the sound.
Money has to be put where it does the most good.
A non resonant cabinet, and decent drivers and a well designed and measured crossover.
Kind of silly to use $50.00 caps on woofers and tweeters that cost the company only a few dollars in bulk each.
But wait, you stated the following in this very thread.
Yes some speakers use truly mediocre crossover parts, and can be improved, but not all.
HELLO!!!
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
Feedback about crossovers is no different than anything else in audio. There will be different opinions and experiences. There are no right or wrongs. Some will say a passive with exotic components are worth it, others will say that an all active system is 100 times better, etc, etc, etc.
I think all agree that quality parts are needed for audio..... but at what cost does the point of diminishing returns begin?
Rick Craig / Selah Audio has some interesting opinion on the subject also:
CROSSOVER PARTS
January 6, 2015
One of the questions I'm often asked is something like "what crossover parts do you use or what upgrades do you offer"? Before I founded Selah Audio I worked as a component buyer in the electronics industry. Part of my responsibility included working with design engineers to find suitable parts for a variety of products.
Some of the equipment we manufactured worked at very high frequencies way beyond the audio band. Slight deviations in passive components (resistors, inductors, and capacitors) often became critical to circuit performance.
The same can be true for high end audio; however, it seems that the claims made for exotic parts often have no scientific basis and lack the documentation to show that there's an audible difference (let alone if it's even closer to the source material you're listening to). Of course there are many opinions on this subject and if you ask 99 audiophiles you might receive 100 answers. Stay tuned as I discuss my thoughts on this and other subjects in the coming year...
In my experience bypass caps make no audible improvement. Same for many of the exotic caps. If your speaker has electrolytic caps in a tweeter or midrange circuit switching to a film cap can actually change the response in a negative way. It all depends on how the circuit was designed and quality of the electrolytic parts. I have modified speakers from B&W and Wharefdale where the ESR resistance of the cap was factored into the response. in those cases I observed about 2db of increased output when replacing the caps.
Changing inductors can actually make things worse depending on how the circuit was designed - lower resistance is not always better. Resistors are pretty straightforward which is why you don't see as much snake oil with them.
One of the problems is that the cap manufacturers virtually offer no metrics to show how their parts are superior. I have participated in a few blind tests with caps and having seen (and heard) the results is why I am skeptical of most claims. There are a few companies who do some scientific testing; however, nothing has ever come out to show one type clearly superior to another.
just because a part is more expensive doesn't mean that it's automatically better.Prices can be higher for many reasons - greed, cost of manufacturing (labor, equipment, small production runs, inefficiency, government taxes/duties, etc.). None of these have any bearing on what makes the component better than a comparable part of lower cost.
Most of the parts I use are made by Clarity. In some situations I use other brands if I cannot get the same component value from Clarity. There are also situations where the case size is too large and then alternative caps are used. If customers want something different I try to accommodate their requests as much as possible. BTW, the best sounding caps I've ever heard were 30+ year-old Solens - incredible break-in! jk
FAMILY ROOM HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000 Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
You guys make it hard to ignore stupidity if you keep quoting posts ....
It's dangerous to ignore stupidity. Ask (e.g.) Boeing.
Ask the space shuttle Challenger astronauts.
Ask the crew and passengers of the Titanic.
While we are on the theme of stupidity, I, and others, have documented many times that Polk Audio's co-founder and certain members of their engineering staff have recommended higher quality crossover parts. It is the height of stupidity for someone to come along and outright claim, or insinuate, that following such performance improvement advice is foolish because of what some other manufacturer said about their own speakers.
It's like:
Ford says: "We recommend the following modification to improve brake performace.
Naysayer says: "Every other car manufacturer in the world universe says that modification is not necessary for their cars and therefore and won't do any good on Ford vehicles. Ford is lying.
Feedback about crossovers is no different than anything else in audio. There will be different opinions and experiences. There are no right or wrongs. Some will say a passive with exotic components are worth it, others will say that an all active system is 100 times better, etc, etc, etc.
It depends on the interests and goals of the individual. Most participants of a hobby are not high performance enthusiasts and therefore are not going to be interested in whatever gains can be achieved by modifying a stock item, no matter how great or small the improvement might be.
It is interesting to note that performance enthusiasts are often criticized for indulging in incremental or "diminishing returns" performance improvements, yet you rarely, if ever, see a performance enthusiast criticizing someone, or calling someone crazy, if they prefer to leave their gear in stock form.
Rick Craig / Selah Audio has some interesting opinion on the subject also:
"In my experience bypass caps make no audible improvement. Same for many of the exotic caps. If your speaker has electrolytic caps in a tweeter or midrange circuit switching to a film cap can actually change the response in a negative way. It all depends on how the circuit was designed and quality of the electrolytic parts. I have modified speakers from B&W and Wharefdale where the ESR resistance of the cap was factored into the response. in those cases I observed about 2db of increased output when replacing the caps.
Changing inductors can actually make things worse depending on how the circuit was designed - lower resistance is not always better."
This highlights why it is important to consult the manufacturer before doing modifications.
Post edited by DarqueKnight on
"So hot it burnsMice!"~DK
"Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
"Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
"Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
No, you mean you happen to agree with what he says.
MOST speaker designers or "engineers" do not believe what he claims someone told him.
The reason for not using botique caps is for the price there is very little advantage sound wise.
There are some audiophiles that believe they make a big difference but if you read several audio forums, there is NEVER a consensus, and never any proof of this.
That is why opinions are all over the place.
But gonna stand my ground, MOST speaker engineers do not believe in expensive caps.
One or two saying they do is just that.
Feedback about crossovers is no different than anything else in audio. There will be different opinions and experiences. There are no right or wrongs. Some will say a passive with exotic components are worth it, others will say that an all active system is 100 times better, etc, etc, etc.
I think all agree that quality parts are needed for audio..... but at what cost does the point of diminishing returns begin?
Rick Craig / Selah Audio has some interesting opinion on the subject also:
CROSSOVER PARTS
January 6, 2015
The same can be true for high end audio; however, it seems that the claims made for exotic parts often have no scientific basis and lack the documentation to show that there's an audible difference (let alone if it's even closer to the source material you're listening to). Of course there are many opinions on this subject and if you ask 99 audiophiles you might receive 100 answers. Stay tuned as I discuss my thoughts on this and other subjects in the coming year...
In my experience bypass caps make no audible improvement. Same for many of the exotic caps. If your speaker has electrolytic caps in a tweeter or midrange circuit switching to a film cap can actually change the response in a negative way. It all depends on how the circuit was designed and quality of the electrolytic parts. I have modified speakers from B&W and Wharefdale where the ESR resistance of the cap was factored into the response. in those cases I observed about 2db of increased output when replacing the caps.
Changing inductors can actually make things worse depending on how the circuit was designed - lower resistance is not always better. Resistors are pretty straightforward which is why you don't see as much snake oil with them.
One of the problems is that the cap manufacturers virtually offer no metrics to show how their parts are superior. I have participated in a few blind tests with caps and having seen (and heard) the results is why I am skeptical of most claims. There are a few companies who do some scientific testing; however, nothing has ever come out to show one type clearly superior to another.
just because a part is more expensive doesn't mean that it's automatically better.Prices can be higher for many reasons - greed, cost of manufacturing (labor, equipment, small production runs, inefficiency, government taxes/duties, etc.). None of these have any bearing on what makes the component better than a comparable part of lower cost.
Most of the parts I use are made by Clarity. In some situations I use other brands if I cannot get the same component value from Clarity. There are also situations where the case size is too large and then alternative caps are used. If customers want something different I try to accommodate their requests as much as possible. BTW, the best sounding caps I've ever heard were 30+ year-old Solens - incredible break-in! jk
People in this forum (in general) are never open to the possibility they are wrong, and all cling to ideas they tend to agree with, and bash on people that dare to say they are wrong, or have a different opinion, or personally have found what they say to simply be wrong.
Outside this forum (fortunately) other views are seen more regularly.
Most of the approximately 40 people either banned or that left the forum due to several jerks that try to gang up on people here, tended to not agree with those jerks.
The jerks are afraid to be told their opinion could be wrong.
So they huddle together agree with each other, and applaud each other and so on.
You ever notice, how they all tend to post literally one after the other?
The speaker designers I talk to believe you don’t need world class drivers. You can take good drivers, get the electroacoustics right and use quality capacitors and draw out incredible sound.
The reason this is even up for debate is that many don’t know how to listen for the qualities these components bring. Case in point, only roughly 10% of guys who came to my room at lsaf heard the incredible depth I was getting. Those guys who did had expletives immediately. The problem with this hobby is that if you don’t know what to listen for, you won’t get it. If you do catch what is going on, that sound doesn’t leave your register.
It is true that capacitors will have different frequency response, but they bring more to the table than just FR. they lower the noise floor and reproduce a more realistic soundstage. The biggest drawback to ALL Polk speakers are the horrendous caps they use.
In the case of speakers that use poor to mediocre capacitors, I’ve never gotten actual depth from the speakers, just a lower volume from those sounds.
Col. Paul W. Klipsch believed that his enclosure designs (and, presumably, his midrange horns) were the value-added part of his loudspeakers and that the drivers used were irrelevant. Early on, he (they) used pretty good drivers (EV, University -- that sort of thing), but by the 1970s, Klipsch was using mostly inexpensive commodity drivers (although they used the EV T35 tweeter for a long time). Some time spent listening to the "Heritage" Klipsch models of that era will, I would opine, quickly convince one of the fallacy of Klipsch's logic.
In terms of crossover design and choice of passive components used therein (capacitors, inductors and resistors), at least in the case of mass-market loudspeakers, there is simply no question that the 'bean counters' held/hold at least some sway in the choice of components based (presumably) on COGs (cost of goods sold).
Comments
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/stevenzs-diy-jeff-bagby-helix-dome-speaker-build.4818/
Seemed worth mentioning in the context of this thread.
(photos nicked from the above-mentioned thread)
Safe bet the engineers aren't going to use caps in the neighborhood of $200 to $1K per cap or more, especially when trying to get a series of speakers back on its feet.....throws the profit margin out the window as well as potential sales.
It's up to the consumer to take the product to that last possible 10% if they so desire....that's what makes this hobby even more fun.
Village Idiot of Club Polk
In fact, it's not really like doing anything to an engine (i.e., anything that engine tweakers do) -- except, e.g., changing the spark plug wires.
Now, if one redesigned the XO, changed the frequencies; slopes, added (or removed) a Zobel network or changed EQ/contouring... that's more analogous, I would think.
It could, e.g., be argued that removing the Polyswitch from the ol' Polk XOs that used them for driver protection would be a non-conservative modification that might have... ahh... negative unintended consequences.
Thanks for the additional perspective Skip.
"Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
"Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
"Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
Based on what a former speaker engineer told me (I won't say it was Polk but I am sure it happens many places), he would voice the speaker with better quality parts (film caps) but the budget guys would come in and push for more economical substitutes. He would apply measures like damping material to the PR and MW baskets that were nixed for the production product to save cost. It becomes a balancing act between what is best and what is cost effective for the production units.
Main 2ch:
Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.
HT:
Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade), Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60
Other stuff:
Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7; Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601
Vinyl: Fluance RT82 * Nagaoka MP-110 * Bottlehead Reduction + Integration Upgrade * KAB RF1
Video: Panasonic TH-50PZ850U * Panasonic DMP-UB200P-K * ROKU Premiere * Z-line Designs Elektra
As an amateur designer/builder of speakers, let me say: you just don't get it!
Speaker building is like eating potato chips. You can't stop with just one. It's fun and addicting. Choose drivers, then work up a design. After months of planning, build. Agonize over which veneer to use & how to finish it.
I have had much more return on my money with speaker building than I used to get from just buying a box someone else built!
And about selling them: WHAT!!! sell my babies!!! I have a house full of speakers. Then there are the ones I have given to family, friends, etc. But sell them, oh no!
Cheers, Jim
For sure! Hey post some pics! Maybe start a new thread with pictures of your babies!
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
How do the new L800 SDA compare to the Original Legend SDA-SRS 1.2TL?
RECEIVER Yamaha HTR6180
FRONT AMP McIntosh MC2125
THEATER AMP EMOTIVA XPA 7
FRONT Polk SDA 1B
CENTER Polk CsiA4
SURROUND LR KEF Cresta 30
REAR Polk Monitor 5
SUB Tannoy TS 10 Subwoofer
NAS 20 TB Raid 3 QNAP
Office
AMP Luxman L210
SPEAKERS Tannoy
Both do SDA. The L800 doesn't go as low, is smaller and lighter than the 2.3TL. That said, the only way you will truly know what they sound like is to hear them.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
I would say WRONG!
Ask a dozen great DIY speaker engineers, who a few or more might also design for actual speaker companies, and the opinion on botique stuff is pretty well agreed on.
Has NOTHING to do with cost, but it is not seen as an improvement.
There is a small contingent in the audio community, that "believe" huge improvements are there when simply substituting parts of a higher cost, but some companies use them to pacify the ones expecting expensive caps and fancy binding posts.
A competently well designed crossover, is measure, simulated and can be improved by altering crossover slopes, high frequency attenuation and phase angles and notch filters and many other things, that will indeed alter the sound.
Money has to be put where it does the most good.
A non resonant cabinet, and decent drivers and a well designed and measured crossover.
Kind of silly to use $50.00 caps on woofers and tweeters that cost the company only a few dollars in bulk each.
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Also the older ones are for sure more efficient!
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The designers at Sonus faber and other high end speaker companies would disagree with this. Most speaker companies aren't going to come out and say "well, yes, our products could be improved if you replace the cheap, crappy crossover parts with higher quality parts".
Pass Laboratories is a boutique electronics manufacturer which uses boutique parts on their circuit boards. Even with that, Nelson Pass said that further improvements could be made. For example, when Nelson Pass was asked if it was possible to make a ''perfect'' X250.5 or X350.5 amplifier, he replied:
"No. The design is not perfect. When I create a perfect amplifier, I will disappear in a puff of smoke.
The X series is most easily improved by increasing the bias, which generally means better heat sinking and power supply.
There are the usual tweaks, your favorite capacitors, wire, resistors, etc, many of which work, adding some small measure of improvement.
It's not hard to form a list - unfortunately the items on it cost a lot of money. We have used all the economical approaches we know, and some that are not."
A Polk engineer wasn't trying to pacify me when he advised me replace the electrolytic caps in my SDAs with high quality "boutique" film caps and to replace the lower quality mylar film caps with higher quality "boutique" polypropylene caps. He was quite forthright in explaining that some of their parts selections were due to cost and some were due to not being able to source higher quality components in sufficient quantities. Matthew Polk wasn't trying to pacify when he recommended replacing the stock SDA inductor with a large, high current toroidal inductor.
You don't understand. The reason for using higher quality parts is not to "alter" the sound. The reason is to improve the sound by removing noise and distortions caused by lower quality parts.
"Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
"Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
"Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com
"No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
But wait, you stated the following in this very thread.
HELLO!!!
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
It's dangerous to ignore stupidity. Ask (e.g.) Boeing.
I think all agree that quality parts are needed for audio..... but at what cost does the point of diminishing returns begin?
This is an interesting read on the subject.
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/crossovers
Rick Craig / Selah Audio has some interesting opinion on the subject also:
HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
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Ask the space shuttle Challenger astronauts.
Ask the crew and passengers of the Titanic.
While we are on the theme of stupidity, I, and others, have documented many times that Polk Audio's co-founder and certain members of their engineering staff have recommended higher quality crossover parts. It is the height of stupidity for someone to come along and outright claim, or insinuate, that following such performance improvement advice is foolish because of what some other manufacturer said about their own speakers.
It's like:
Ford says: "We recommend the following modification to improve brake performace.
Naysayer says: "Every other car manufacturer in the world universe says that modification is not necessary for their cars and therefore and won't do any good on Ford vehicles. Ford is lying.
It depends on the interests and goals of the individual. Most participants of a hobby are not high performance enthusiasts and therefore are not going to be interested in whatever gains can be achieved by modifying a stock item, no matter how great or small the improvement might be.
It is interesting to note that performance enthusiasts are often criticized for indulging in incremental or "diminishing returns" performance improvements, yet you rarely, if ever, see a performance enthusiast criticizing someone, or calling someone crazy, if they prefer to leave their gear in stock form.
This highlights why it is important to consult the manufacturer before doing modifications.
"Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
"Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
"Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
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Grant Fidelity tube dac
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"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
No, you mean you happen to agree with what he says.
MOST speaker designers or "engineers" do not believe what he claims someone told him.
The reason for not using botique caps is for the price there is very little advantage sound wise.
There are some audiophiles that believe they make a big difference but if you read several audio forums, there is NEVER a consensus, and never any proof of this.
That is why opinions are all over the place.
But gonna stand my ground, MOST speaker engineers do not believe in expensive caps.
One or two saying they do is just that.
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Harman Kardon HK-775
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People in this forum (in general) are never open to the possibility they are wrong, and all cling to ideas they tend to agree with, and bash on people that dare to say they are wrong, or have a different opinion, or personally have found what they say to simply be wrong.
Outside this forum (fortunately) other views are seen more regularly.
Most of the approximately 40 people either banned or that left the forum due to several jerks that try to gang up on people here, tended to not agree with those jerks.
The jerks are afraid to be told their opinion could be wrong.
So they huddle together agree with each other, and applaud each other and so on.
You ever notice, how they all tend to post literally one after the other?
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Yamaha RX-A3060
Harman Kardon Hk-350i
Harman Kardon Hk-........
Harman Kardon PM-665
Harman Kardon HK-775
Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver
The reason this is even up for debate is that many don’t know how to listen for the qualities these components bring. Case in point, only roughly 10% of guys who came to my room at lsaf heard the incredible depth I was getting. Those guys who did had expletives immediately. The problem with this hobby is that if you don’t know what to listen for, you won’t get it. If you do catch what is going on, that sound doesn’t leave your register.
It is true that capacitors will have different frequency response, but they bring more to the table than just FR. they lower the noise floor and reproduce a more realistic soundstage. The biggest drawback to ALL Polk speakers are the horrendous caps they use.
In the case of speakers that use poor to mediocre capacitors, I’ve never gotten actual depth from the speakers, just a lower volume from those sounds.
In terms of crossover design and choice of passive components used therein (capacitors, inductors and resistors), at least in the case of mass-market loudspeakers, there is simply no question that the 'bean counters' held/hold at least some sway in the choice of components based (presumably) on COGs (cost of goods sold).
Basic economics, I think.