How do the new L800 SDA compare to the Original Legend SDA-SRS 1.2TL?
Comments
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Is that Russ? -
Hard to tell from the pic, inductors and all
but is that a Cadillac? Coupe Deville or Eldorado
I’m guessing.
I did a little research and found it to be Dick Jackson’s custom 1957 T-bird.
https://kustomrama.com/wiki/Dick_Jackson's_1957_Ford_Thunderbird
Whew. At least it wasn't Dick Johnson.
OK, I actually want to talk about the new SDA's XOs!
Here's the thought I wanted to share. Passive crossovers are fundamentally simple. Not saying that the design or engineering is simple, but the components are. With fairly rare exceptions (tapped inductors and autoformers, e.g.), we're talkin' rather prosaic L, C, R (inductors, capacitors, and resistors) wired in series and/or parallel, and the wires to hook 'em together and hook the Gemisch to the drivers. Straightforward for a patient person to reverse engineer or for anyone who can read a schematic to clone (or 'improve', at least in terms of component substitution -- not talkin' about actual redesign).
Now, my point is that 'souping up' the new L800 XOs is a straightforward exercise -- but -- I wonder whether the complexity (i.e., parts count) of the board(s) might mean that souped up XOs containing boutique Cs (especially), but also Ls and maybe even Rs might take up so much space (relative to the manufacturer's stuffed XO boards) as to impact the enclosure volume and thus the tuning of the speaker system?
Not trying to be an alarmist (!) -- just musing.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »Hard to tell from the pic, inductors and all but is that a Cadillac? Coupe Deville or Eldorado
I’m guessing.
I did a little research and found it to be Dick Jackson’s custom 1957 T-bird.
https://kustomrama.com/wiki/Dick_Jackson's_1957_Ford_Thunderbird
Whew. At least it wasn't Dick Johnson.
OK, I actually want to talk about the new SDA's XOs!
Here's the thought I wanted to share. Passive crossovers are fundamentally simple. Not saying that the design or engineering is simple, but the components are. With fairly rare exceptions (tapped inductors and autoformers, e.g.), we're talkin' rather prosaic L, C, R (inductors, capacitors, and resistors) wired in series and/or parallel, and the wires to hook 'em together and hook the Gemisch to the drivers. Straightforward for a patient person to reverse engineer or for anyone who can read a schematic to clone (or 'improve', at least in terms of component substitution -- not talkin' about actual redesign).
Now, my point is that 'souping up' the new L800 XOs is a straightforward exercise -- but -- I wonder whether the complexity (i.e., parts count) of the board(s) might mean that souped up XOs containing boutique Cs (especially), but also Ls and maybe even Rs might take up so much space (relative to the manufacturer's stuffed XO boards) as to impact the enclosure volume and thus the tuning of the speaker system?
Not trying to be an alarmist (!) -- just musing.
@mhardy6647's comments, along with @DarqueKnight's and @Vr3's capture exactly my concerns that prompted my question above.
Those concerns were: 1) about the compactness of the stock circuit board, which begs the question whether a new "Gimpod" board would be needed to accommodate new "oversized" components [Ls, Cs,Rs], and 2) whether with such a redesigned printed circuit board with oversized components would require an external crossover enclosure, as @Vr3 suggested.
@Vr3 had to be extremely creative to build his top-of-the-line SDA SRS 1.2tl crossovers in a configuration that would fit into stock speaker enclosures. The pictures I have seen of the L800 crossovers and enclosures indicate to me that even Trey might not be creative enough to build very high-end crossovers that could be put in the speaker enclosures of the L800s. The crossovers appear to be very compactly designed, and it is not obvious where there would be space available in the speaker enclosures.Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.
Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One. -
Two thoughts spring to mind.
Thought the first:
It would be possible, if inelegant, to use the stock board and wire the boutique
components to it via "pigtails" (and, mind you, I am all about inelegance, as y'all know!).
Thought the second:
There's a lot to be said for outboarding XOs (IMO). If nothing else, one'll see the smoke if too much power is bein' dissipated by 'em.
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Yes ,the only limitations are your cash flow and your desire.Absolutely, changing them with a cap like the Clarity Cap CSA and the resistors to Jantzen superes would yield gains. Everything can be improved, there is truly no limit in audio. You could build an enclosure externally the size of the speakers, drop $30k in duelund caps and resistors. The world is your oyster!! haha
I see in the pics of the stock crossovers that the parts have been tested and values written on them. I wonder if this was done for the prototyping only? Or if it will be done in production? Holding crossover parts to a tight tolerance would certainly help keep frequency response consistent from sample to sample. -
Absolutely, changing them with a cap like the Clarity Cap CSA and the resistors to Jantzen superes would yield gains. Everything can be improved, there is truly no limit in audio. You could build an enclosure externally the size of the speakers, drop $30k in duelund caps and resistors. The world is your oyster!! haha
I see in the pics of the stock crossovers that the parts have been tested and values written on them. I wonder if this was done for the prototyping only? Or if it will be done in production? Holding crossover parts to a tight tolerance would certainly help keep frequency response consistent from sample to sample.
I was also wondering that same thing. I honestly couldn't see them doing it for the production models but one never knows. Although I'm sure a lot has changed since early Polk when some XO's looked like Monday morning or Friday mix and maybe somewhat matched parts. Looking at my factory SRS 2.3tl XO's they looked completely different from each other and explained why I could never get them dialed in at all. I bought them used and the owners nephew had told me his uncle always thought something was missing as the in store demo models sounded so much better. I figured it was just his gear and room interactions were so different from the store demo models. Seems he was onto something actually as he had not used them in 20 yrs. and replaced them with Legacy Whispers according to the nephew. -
I was also wondering that same thing. I honestly couldn't see them doing it for the production models but one never knows. Although I'm sure a lot has changed since early Polk when some XO's looked like Monday morning or Friday mix and maybe somewhat matched parts. Looking at my factory SRS 2.3tl XO's they looked completely different from each other and explained why I could never get them dialed in at all. I bought them used and the owners nephew had told me his uncle always thought something was missing as the in store demo models sounded so much better. I figured it was just his gear and room interactions were so different from the store demo models. Seems he was onto something actually as he had not used them in 20 yrs. and replaced them with Legacy Whispers according to the nephew.
Yeah, with that amount of complexity and the use of inexpensive ,probably wide tolerance parts. The potential for frequency response errors/differences from unit to unit is certainly possible if they don't attempt to match them.
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I heard them this past Saturday at the RMAF, and here's my 2 cents:
The imaging was VERY precise between the speakers and slightly outside the speakers. However, I didn't get near the sense of them throwing sounds outside the cabinets as I hear with my SDA-SRS's. The room wasn't exactly symmetrical though, so that probably impacted the outside imaging to some degree. They easily out-imaged speakers 2-3x their price point between the speakers though.
I was somewhat disappointed that they didn't seem to command the room as my SDA-SRS's do, but that is most likely attributed to Stu's judicious use of the volume knob. I wish they opened them up a bit more.
Compared to my SDA-SRS's, I'd say my opinion was "they're decent", bordering on "somewhat lack-luster". Having said that, I think my opinion is heavily weighed down by the poor (imo) "music" choices they chose to demo. I was hoping they would have played more actual music that showed them off, instead of odd sound samples, individual instruments, and acapella tracks.
Overall, I think people will be happy with them, but I won't be rushing to replace my SDA-SRS or 1Cs anytime soon. I'd like to hear them again in a different setting, with real music, and see if my mind can be changed... -
I haven't read through all the threads focused on the new SDA model, but I wonder if they can be pulled out into the room a bit?
The only "downside" to the older models, to ME, is the Stage is a little shallow, it would be keen if you could obtain a deeper stage with the new Series, as well as the width and imaging of the Original. -
I think the placement away from the front wall is more like a conventional speaker than the original SDA design allowed. It looks like the L800s were set up in the RMAF hotel suite about 2 to 3 feet in front of a long row of curtain covered windows. Not ideal, but such setups rarely are.
I think from what I've seen so far that the dual driver ported woofer design is intended for clean output that is not all that placement dependent relative to walls. They appear to be more like conventional speakers except that they can't be toed in and they need to have side walls to reflect sound off of and envelope a listener in the sweet spot. Side walls can't be too close nor can they be too far, but I have no idea yet what the workable distances are. -
My demo at Polk of the L800 had an extremely wide soundstage, well outside of the cabinets. In fact, I have no problem calling it huge.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I think the placement away from the front wall is more like a conventional speaker than the original SDA design allowed. It looks like the L800s were set up in the RMAF hotel suite about 2 to 3 feet in front of a long row of curtain covered windows. Not ideal, but such setups rarely are.
I think from what I've seen so far that the dual driver ported woofer design is intended for clean output that is not all that placement dependent relative to walls. They appear to be more like conventional speakers except that they can't be toed in and they need to have side walls to reflect sound off of and envelope a listener in the sweet spot. Side walls can't be too close nor can they be too far, but I have no idea yet what the workable distances are.
Then I would guess, without the set-up constraints of the old SDA, that the new version "should" throw a deeper stage. This would be the Icing for me,My demo at Polk of the L800 had an extremely wide soundstage, well outside of the cabinets. In fact, I have no problem calling it huge.
Good to know, a proper Demo is on my "Priority List". I might have to make trip to Texas if Derek can get a pair lined up.
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My demo at Polk of the L800 had an extremely wide soundstage, well outside of the cabinets. In fact, I have no problem calling it huge.
I have not heard them, want to badly, but as always got to defer to Jesse's opinion here. Can't wait! Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
My demo at Polk of the L800 had an extremely wide soundstage, well outside of the cabinets. In fact, I have no problem calling it huge.
Wow, that's a drastically different perception that what I experienced at the RMAF. I was really hoping they would blow away the old SDAs, but that's not the opinion I walked away with. Did anyone else go to RMAF and think the demo didn't do them justice? I'd guess the room and/or placement was less than ideal...
I'll definitely check them out again when they show up in a showroom floor somewhere in Denver! -
I don't care about a showroom... That is just the introduction. How they play, at home and with your gear, that is what you need to see and hear.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I'm curious to know more about the Amp limitations- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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me too...love my CRS+'s that are 4.1 TL'ed...and my SDA 2B's that I stole the crossover's from my CRS since they are the same all made by Dave as was my Dreadnaught or how ever you so choose to spell it. 2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge
HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD -
nooshinjohn wrote: »I don't care about a showroom... That is just the introduction. How they play, at home and with your gear, that is what you need to see and hear.
Good point, it's hard to argue with that, expect $6,000 is a bit steep for most average people to just try on a whim without being convinced in a showroom. Ironically, it's almost about the same amount of money you would have paid for some SRS's/1.2's back in the day (adjusted for inflation)... -
Hmmm.
Nik -
I know it's early. But my money is on modded 1.2tl's...
Nik -
stock to stock or modded 1.2's and Modded L800'S
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How ya doing Nik! Long time no see.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
To funny they always say that
if the L800S can best my 2.3tls then I wouldn't mind dropping that amount of coin on them being my last pair of Speakers I purchased. Listening to the 2.3tls today was a pleasure like always. Home Theater
Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable
2 Channel
Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+
Stuff for the Head
JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365
Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin
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So i'm looking forward to the new journey that the L800's promise. New technology, better SDA, new materials, XO's, cabinets, etc. Just plain new. Lot's of promise, and opportunity for folks to potentially mod them. Or just enjoy em right out of the box.
The vintage SDA's have a clear path toward modification. Lot's of info, experience, help and guidance, to get them to the best of their potential. But that path is already defined, and finite. Folks here that have done the full monty of mods, realizing that will be the best they'll ever be! Which btw is truly awesome.
By contrast, the L800 journey has just begun! Not yet started, really. Looking forward as many of you are of taking the plunge, and realizing them to the fullest of their potential! Who knows where that will take us? Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
Or one could just buy a speaker and enjoy it for a few years before trying to make it better.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Or one could just buy a speaker and enjoy it for a few years before trying to make it better.
Yep! Probably that'll be my path. At the beginning of course! Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
I see 2k minimum just in caps/resistors and chokes on that crossover board. My only wish not met on these speakers is they did not go DmD or ribbon on those tweets.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
So i'm looking forward to the new journey that the L800's promise.
Sounds like you already put a deposit down to secure one of the first pairs sold! Congratulations! I like early adopters.
