Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

plastic_avatar · January 2023

Break-in report

@westmassguy: Thank you for the knowledge. I appreciate it! With the cable, much better, but haven't heard them properly set up yet.

@dromunds: We're at 105'ish hours today. Even on bench, I can tell there's a difference. Will definitely do this for my 5B, too. Thank you.

@heiney9: I'll keep the extended break-in on my mind. I know the Monitor 12 have only gotten better over the past 2 years. I didn't think about it deeply until today (I'll explain more of that below). I took a step back from the bench eval until yesterday. because I was just struck by how nice they sounded

Luckily, I expect failure (which is sad, I suppose), so success is a welcome surprise. It was a coping mechanism I got stuck with. So my honeymoon phases are full of critique and skepticism [laughs]. The real test comes this week!

Break-in observations from the bench

- The Wuhans don't grate on me like the 2000s. Much smoother to my ear. Curious to see if I keep my backwave diffuser as is, or if I decide to switch to pure felt/wool. Made a super rigid new plate with 6 additional screw points. May try that, just to make it sturdier. Working on a cover that conceals the screws.

- When streaming, I hear distortion in very loud sections of music with a lot going on. Might be compression. It was less noticeable on Amazon files, compared to Spotify. It is not noticeable on CD going through rca jacks.

- The Left speaker has the pipe wrap lining the passive chamber. The Right does not. I was curious how it would perform compared to the Noico in my Monitors. It's not a perfect example, but this sounds great nearfield, to me (posted yesterday on Gardenstater's foam mod thread):

https://youtu.be/TUlij8U4oKU

- The BH5, complete Armacel, and passive chamber wall coating appear to be working as I hoped. I'll be able to tell more when they're in place, but no audible red flags on bench. Example of some oomph that isn't affected negatively:

https://youtube.com/shorts/Sk9TmIRIIGU?feature=share

- No looking forward to disconnecting the crossovers to install that resistor I didn't put on the tweeter circuit. My bracket works great, but it's a YUGE p-i-t-a to latch the crossover on when the bracket is attached to the cabinet floor. I'm going to tweak the design for outboard screws, so you can mount the board to the bracket outside, then screw it in as one unit.

- The wrap, metal, and extra plastic adds a few pounds to each speaker. My back already hates me for the upcoming journey from bench to stereo placement. I don't know how you bug SDA owners manage!

- Trying to decide how best to mount Vr3's felt tweeter pad. I have little velcro thingies to try.

My streaming setup sucks. I need help figuring out something to get... cheap... that will get me closer to what I experience on CD

I tried streaming from my phones to the analog on the big stereo. Wanted to do some proper ratings on the M12 before swapping. Nothing sounded right. Everything was concentrated in a 3-4ft wide area in the middle.

Switched to CD, compared Walking in Your Footsteps by The Police. Streaming was a narrow sound field with little depth and subdued voice. The exact opposite happened when on CD. The difference was gigantic. I want my streamed music to sound as good as my CDs. How to manage on a budget?

plastic_avatar · January 2023

About the my streaming setup thoughts:

- I have a lot of flac files of my own stuff.

- I have Macs w/ optical outs.

-Thus far, the Amazon files have less of that distortion I really pick up from Spotify. I have fiber internet. Speeds are more than adequate for streaming.

- The change in width and depth, separation and placement, between CD and streaming is night and day. Another song on my eval list is Ramble On. It is reduced to a musical smear. Where on CD, the pinpointing of all elements is easy, wide, and pleasant.

- Does a good DAC really change that?

- Showing my hifi DAC ignorance here, but is there a DDC-type interface? Like optical to digital magic restoration to optical?

xschop · January 2023

I'm not well-versed on DAC set-up either, but I get CD quality sound from my flac-recorded tracks played thru my LG-G7 or LG-V60 "quad-dac" phones. Whereas I get sub-par quality from the same Flac-recorded tracks played through a Samsung tablet or Windows micro PC.

I've dedicated my LG-G7 to the main rig when streaming most of the time.

Gardenstater · January 2023

My streaming setup is: Internet Router Gateway --> Ethernet Cable (or wifi) --> Squeezebox Touch --> USB cable --> iFi nano iDSD DAC --> RCA plug interconnects --> Amplifier. I am getting a super low noise floor that I never got when using the computer USB outputs directly into the DAC. That had all sorts of noise pollution going out even over the USB and even when I used a separate power supply to power the DAC instead of the power from the computer.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

DAC comments above = [thumbs up]

I'll do more reading today [sigh]. SO MUCH RESEARCH THIS YEAR...

Speaker/crossover burn-in technique

I found this and thought 'Why the Hazmada didn't I think of that?'

Cambridge Audio:

The most basic way to run in your speakers is to set them up with your system and use them normally. Usually the speakers will be sufficiently run in after a total of 20-30 hours of normal use and they will often continue to develop and improve for the first hundred or so hours.

There is however a slightly more convenient and quicker way to achieve the same result without having to annoy the neighbours for a whole weekend.

Firstly, position your speakers facing each other with about an inch of distance between them and connect them to the amplifier as normal. Then simply reverse the polarity on one of the speakers. This means that at one end of the speaker cable on either the left or right channel, you swap the positive or negative connections over. (See diagram)

How To Run In Speakers

Reversing the polarity and playing the speakers facing each other helps them cancel each other out, meaning you will only be able to hear the highs so you don’t have to vibrate your room with bass. This gives you the ability to increase the volume and bass thus increasing the movement in your drivers to improve the running in process. This isn’t an excuse to crank it up to 11 however, we recommend keeping the volume at only a little higher than listening level. Playing at high volumes can damage the speakers and also overheat the amp if done for an extended amount of time.

You will often read lots of disputes on the internet over how long you should run in speakers for and honestly... there isn’t a definitive answer. Our advise to run them in for approximately 36 hours.

I'll set up my 5B like this when I do them and just let them run for 100+ hours like the 1C.

skipshot12 · January 2023

I recently installed a blue node into my system and have only streamed, so far, from the wife’s iPhone.
I cannot play the system as loud as when spinning discs. At loud levels I can end up with what sounds like mild clipping thru the iphone.
Pretty sure it’s the source as I know I’m not clipping my amp.

Never notice a compression of the soundstage or imaging thru the phone source.

My wife uses one of the equalizer settings on the iPhone and would bet that’s the source of clipping sounds.

invalid · January 2023

It's definitely the source, phones are terrible as a source.

skipshot12 · January 2023

Tanks for confirmation...

plastic_avatar · January 2023

invalid wrote: »

...phones are terrible as a source.

Yeah...

That's why I hope I can optical out from a laptop into some kind of DAC magic without spending more than $500 =(

Seems the Node and the Zen One something something are good options, but the Zen doesn't have an optical out =(

invalid · January 2023

The node will blow away the phone is sound quality. I used to use the node 2 with it's internal dac it didn't sound too bad, but it's much better with my external tube dac.

heiney9 · January 2023

Laptops are terrible as well, not quite as bad as a phone. Streaming from a phone is very poor compared to what is capable from streaming.

H9

plastic_avatar · January 2023

@heiney9 and @invalid and all

So the thing to do is just have the unit access you files on a drive?

Being a tech professional as one of my hats, that this particular piece of stereo use has evaded my radar kinda makes me lose internally counted nerd points =|

I figured I would play the tunes from the laptop, push out via optical to the DAC, then have it do its processing magic. But it needs to do the playing?

(I'd Google more, but I work during the day. And we just got 2 new dogs this weekend... AND I appreciate the shortcut to knowledge from people who know waaaaaay better than I do!)

Gardenstater · January 2023

Using the laptop isn't going to get you a low noise floor, although I admit I have never tried optical output, only USB so maybe someone who has will weigh in on that.

But if that is what you want to do instead of getting a low cost streaming device like SBT, you would have to identify the DAC as your sound output device in Device Manager (Windows guy here) and you would use some sort of player software on your laptop such as foobar or other to play files on your drive(s).

If you want to use a streaming service like Qobuz (recommend for SBT), TIDAL, Spotify, Amazon, etc., then you will use their player software on your computer and will specify your DAC within that software as the output device. Never used Spotify. When I tried to use Amazon, it didn't have a way to make the output to my DAC as a bitperfect stream (Wasapi or ASIO). I complained to them about that so I'm sure they got right on it

skipshot12 · January 2023

From above I want to make something clear.
The compression I was getting thru my speakers was from the iPhone and had nothing to do with the node 2.
Don’t want anyone to think otherwise as I haven’t done any streaming services thru the node yet…

heiney9 · January 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

@heiney9 and @invalid and all

So the thing to do is just have the unit access you files on a drive?

Being a tech professional as one of my hats, that this particular piece of stereo use has evaded my radar kinda makes me lose internally counted nerd points =|

I figured I would play the tunes from the laptop, push out via optical to the DAC, then have it do its processing magic. But it needs to do the playing?

(I'd Google more, but I work during the day. And we just got 2 new dogs this weekend... AND I appreciate the shortcut to knowledge from people who know waaaaaay better than I do!)

Optical out is a little better than streaming over bluetooth. What player are using? What settings are you using in the laptop player? The output from the computer needs to be optimized and you need to use something other than Windows media player. I apologize, I don't know if your a mac or pc guy. I hate Apple so I can't help with that. iTunes is not that great either if looking for the best sound quality.

Not sure what your goals are here. But streaming properly for excellent sound is not as simple or cheap to accomplish as people think. There's some thought and know how that go into it.

If you're just looking for music and really don't care about high quality, then your method will work.

H9

plastic_avatar · January 2023

@heiney9 HO NO NO NO! I want to get everything I can out of this system I've cobbled together! Bad sounding sources need not apply.

I'm going off of 13 year old info for using my Mac's optical out to feed a DAC. Hence mah frustration for having to start at zero for another piece to the stereo puzzle.

I love having Spotify and Pandora feed me things, but I can't play them on the stereo without getting a YUGE case of sad face.

I guess the last article I have bookmarked was 6'ish years ago.

https://hometheaterreview.com/turning-a-mac-into-an-audiophile-source-component/

It made sense to use my Mac to output optical to a DAC, since it shouldn't negatively affect sound quality. But these DACs are a different kind of thing nowadays, right? You use it as the player to siphon music from your HD and/or services like Amazon/etc.?

Like I said, I'm waaaaaay out of the loop on what I should shoot for. I'm putting a potential $500 cap on it, so that limits me to things like the Node2 and Zen One. But the SBT option and something like an Allo2 are curious options, too.

Edit: But this was the software I thought about using:

https://audirvana.com/

Gardenstater · January 2023

I know just enough to be dangerous, but that iFi Zen One is a pure DAC (with HD Bluetooth added) and not a streaming/home network accessing device like the Logitech Squeezebox Touch or the Bluesound Node2. I've had great experiences with all the iFi products I've used so far.

bcwsrt · January 2023

Gardenstater wrote: »

I know just enough to be dangerous, but that iFi Zen One is a pure DAC (with HD Bluetooth added) and not a streaming/home network accessing device like the Logitech Squeezebox Touch or the Bluesound Node2. I've had great experiences with all the iFi products I've used so far.

Me also. But BT receivers were a low cost way for me to get back into listening again a few months ago, so I did a fair amount of research back then. For me it came down to the iFi Zen One and the Auris bluMe Pro. I liked the looks of the Auris better, so I went with it. Been super-happy with it.

https://theauris.com/products/blume-pro

TAKE15 should get you 15% off at checkout.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

- So the Zen would be something to use with the laptop/optical thing, and the Node2/SBT are there own things without the need for the computer, correct?

- Ah! Auris! I was going to get one of the originals! But that was in the 'Pandemic Unemployment' phase... I like the Pro one. That's exciting they made an even better model. That might be a better solution than an Echo Dot for my Realistic system in the living room (I've got a little Fosi amp/BT thingie in my console in the family room. That's good enough for it. But the living room is an actual stereo where I'll care more about streaming BT sound if I put the 5B up there. Not hifi, but not Fosi level, either.)

Completed my 2 eval CDs.

Tester 1 is things I chose and some my family likes:

Tester 2 is recommended stuff from 'Net lists:

plastic_avatar · January 2023

On my disc:

- Vital signs is probably the worst recording on both discs. Almost all my Rush stuff sounds blunted (as I mentioned in the SDA playlist thread). But, it has a back and forth and some snappy drums and punctuated base, so I wanted to test it as my one Rush song.

- Walking in Your Footsteps is not my favorite Police song, but it has great width and tone. So it'll be a good comparison.

- Prison Sex will test the low end. [insert prison sex joke here]

- Ramble On and I Heard it Through the Grapevine are 2 of my favorite stereo effect songs, so they had to be included.

On the recommended disc:

Everything is from 'must use!' lists. Though, Das Spiegel was going on my personal CD at first, because I've enjoyed using it to tweak my system the past couple of years.

I don't have a massive CD collection, but I'll take suggestions for a 3rd disc of songs from my fellow Polk folk

Who knows, maybe I have what you suggest!

skipshot12 · January 2023

I definitely 2nd heiney9’s recommend on optical.
I actually take it a step further and opt for actual glass toslink over plastic. Just be careful with the bend radius.

Only time other types of connect cables surpass optical is when going to more than 2-channel (surround & the likes) stereo.

Audioquest makes some really nice glass fiber toslinks, which is what I’ve been using for years.
Not sure if it’s the AT&T patented glass fiber optic which, I heard many moons ago was the TOL.
Neat thing about the glass toslink vs plastic you’re not looking at crazy esoteric prices.

I have to say this…. I have no observations personally that the glass sounds better, it’s just one of those tweak things that make me feel better.

And fiber, whether plastic or glass, are totally immune to RFI and the like.
No shielding required there.

Gardenstater · January 2023

@plastic_avatar audirvana software is interesting to me because it might get around the shortcoming of the TIDAL app in Logitech Media Server software I use with the SBT, which is free. It doesn't have MQA capability, which is no surprise because who is going to pay their license fees when writing a free app out of the goodness of their heart for a long since discontinued streaming device lol? But I balk at the $70 annual fee which is bound to keep getting raised going forward. I'm cheap, but all these subscription fees for entertainment add up to a pretty big deal. That might not be a problem for you though.

Another issue you might have with it is that they seem to currently only support streaming from TIDAL, Qobuz, and HiResaudio at this time, although they say more are coming.

PS: Listening to some of your songlists I've never heard

Gardenstater · January 2023

@plastic_avatar If you can stream it in CD quality, try using as a test track: "Birds" by Domique Fils-Aime from "Nameless". Hat tip VR3. Great transients and imaging and vocals and deep deep bass.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

Jeezus

Mary

and Josephus

o.O

That's a heck of a thing, that SDA stuff...

[time of SDA heartbeat, 00:35]

[time of phone call from my youngest whom I didn't know was upstairs sleeping with her new dog in the family room, 01:02]

[amp off at 01:09, til tomorrow]

[01:14, possible related issue to SDA??? my tinnitus is SCREAMING! Noooooooo!!!]

Now wouldn't that be a crazy side effect?

More to fill in on my testing tonight, come tomorrow.

Thanks for all the help, gang!

THEY'RE ALIVE!!!!

xschop · January 2023

Would love to hear them on first fire-up. It's like when you build a custom ride and hit the ignition. Good times.

audioluvr · January 2023

Phones are the ultimate source for DAC quality! Everyone else is full of ship!

xschop · January 2023

Dunno about that, but Polks are the ultimate source for SDA quality.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

1C test, prologue

xschop wrote: »

Would love to hear them on first fire-up. It's like when you build a custom ride and hit the ignition. Good times.

That's an accurate comparison

And just like that, sometimes the carb needs adjusted, or you find out two of the wires are swapped on the distributor. and you spend hours tracking it down to fix...

Off the bench and onto the floor

They were in position at 17:30, and I went immediately into testing with the 2 CDs I pushed through the Monitor 12 this week.

- I have graphs of my unscientific by-ear impressions.

- Didn't get a stereo image from the 1C with cable attached. Evaluated songs with the cable and without. Without, image was there. They sounded better than the M12, either way, overall. was very pleased by everything but the stereo effect.

- Checked cable. No problem.

- Picture above is me on the floor checking wires and connections. I reversed the wires from the crossover to the plate. Terminals and SDA connections were in the right place, thankfully. Figuring that out and fixing took 90 minutes. Made a better set of passive gaskets while I had things apart.

- Immediately, after that when the music hit them, the left stereo image on Whole Lotta Love went into the wall 3 feet away. SLAM! Soundstage went nutso wide. My brain had a really hard time reconciling that. The right side caught up as the song pushed more info over.

- I can't listen again until tonight, but Killing in the Name Of, for example, was astonishing.

- The mids are much improved over the M12. In any of the 3 outputs while testing the 1C (no sda, flawed sda, full sda).

- Treble is richer than on the M12, but maybe not as sharp. I think I rated the clarity a notch lower, but with the caveat that the sound was more enjoyable. Double Wuhans do the job. I was honestly surprised how much I liked them, and was prepared to rip them out and tweak during testing.

- You'll see my initial disappointment in the stereo effect (and pinpointing sounds) while troubleshooting in the spreadsheet data (and the positives, too). If anyone cared

plastic_avatar · January 2023

.

skipshot12 · January 2023

Hmmmmm….
Any ideas?

Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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