Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

skipshot12

Tanks for confirmation...

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invalid wrote: »

...phones are terrible as a source.

Yeah...

That's why I hope I can optical out from a laptop into some kind of DAC magic without spending more than $500 =(

Seems the Node and the Zen One something something are good options, but the Zen doesn't have an optical out =(

invalid

The node will blow away the phone is sound quality. I used to use the node 2 with it's internal dac it didn't sound too bad, but it's much better with my external tube dac.

heiney9

Laptops are terrible as well, not quite as bad as a phone. Streaming from a phone is very poor compared to what is capable from streaming.

H9

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@heiney9 and @invalid and all

So the thing to do is just have the unit access you files on a drive?

Being a tech professional as one of my hats, that this particular piece of stereo use has evaded my radar kinda makes me lose internally counted nerd points =|

I figured I would play the tunes from the laptop, push out via optical to the DAC, then have it do its processing magic. But it needs to do the playing?

(I'd Google more, but I work during the day. And we just got 2 new dogs this weekend... AND I appreciate the shortcut to knowledge from people who know waaaaaay better than I do!)

Gardenstater

Using the laptop isn't going to get you a low noise floor, although I admit I have never tried optical output, only USB so maybe someone who has will weigh in on that.

But if that is what you want to do instead of getting a low cost streaming device like SBT, you would have to identify the DAC as your sound output device in Device Manager (Windows guy here) and you would use some sort of player software on your laptop such as foobar or other to play files on your drive(s).

If you want to use a streaming service like Qobuz (recommend for SBT), TIDAL, Spotify, Amazon, etc., then you will use their player software on your computer and will specify your DAC within that software as the output device. Never used Spotify. When I tried to use Amazon, it didn't have a way to make the output to my DAC as a bitperfect stream (Wasapi or ASIO). I complained to them about that so I'm sure they got right on it

skipshot12

From above I want to make something clear.
The compression I was getting thru my speakers was from the iPhone and had nothing to do with the node 2.
Don’t want anyone to think otherwise as I haven’t done any streaming services thru the node yet…

heiney9

plastic_avatar wrote: »

@heiney9 and @invalid and all

So the thing to do is just have the unit access you files on a drive?

Being a tech professional as one of my hats, that this particular piece of stereo use has evaded my radar kinda makes me lose internally counted nerd points =|

I figured I would play the tunes from the laptop, push out via optical to the DAC, then have it do its processing magic. But it needs to do the playing?

(I'd Google more, but I work during the day. And we just got 2 new dogs this weekend... AND I appreciate the shortcut to knowledge from people who know waaaaaay better than I do!)

Optical out is a little better than streaming over bluetooth. What player are using? What settings are you using in the laptop player? The output from the computer needs to be optimized and you need to use something other than Windows media player. I apologize, I don't know if your a mac or pc guy. I hate Apple so I can't help with that. iTunes is not that great either if looking for the best sound quality.

Not sure what your goals are here. But streaming properly for excellent sound is not as simple or cheap to accomplish as people think. There's some thought and know how that go into it.

If you're just looking for music and really don't care about high quality, then your method will work.

H9

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@heiney9 HO NO NO NO! I want to get everything I can out of this system I've cobbled together! Bad sounding sources need not apply.

I'm going off of 13 year old info for using my Mac's optical out to feed a DAC. Hence mah frustration for having to start at zero for another piece to the stereo puzzle.

I love having Spotify and Pandora feed me things, but I can't play them on the stereo without getting a YUGE case of sad face.

I guess the last article I have bookmarked was 6'ish years ago.

https://hometheaterreview.com/turning-a-mac-into-an-audiophile-source-component/

It made sense to use my Mac to output optical to a DAC, since it shouldn't negatively affect sound quality. But these DACs are a different kind of thing nowadays, right? You use it as the player to siphon music from your HD and/or services like Amazon/etc.?

Like I said, I'm waaaaaay out of the loop on what I should shoot for. I'm putting a potential $500 cap on it, so that limits me to things like the Node2 and Zen One. But the SBT option and something like an Allo2 are curious options, too.

Edit: But this was the software I thought about using:

https://audirvana.com/

Gardenstater

I know just enough to be dangerous, but that iFi Zen One is a pure DAC (with HD Bluetooth added) and not a streaming/home network accessing device like the Logitech Squeezebox Touch or the Bluesound Node2. I've had great experiences with all the iFi products I've used so far.

bcwsrt

Gardenstater wrote: »

I know just enough to be dangerous, but that iFi Zen One is a pure DAC (with HD Bluetooth added) and not a streaming/home network accessing device like the Logitech Squeezebox Touch or the Bluesound Node2. I've had great experiences with all the iFi products I've used so far.

Me also. But BT receivers were a low cost way for me to get back into listening again a few months ago, so I did a fair amount of research back then. For me it came down to the iFi Zen One and the Auris bluMe Pro. I liked the looks of the Auris better, so I went with it. Been super-happy with it.

https://theauris.com/products/blume-pro

TAKE15 should get you 15% off at checkout.

plastic_avatar

- So the Zen would be something to use with the laptop/optical thing, and the Node2/SBT are there own things without the need for the computer, correct?

- Ah! Auris! I was going to get one of the originals! But that was in the 'Pandemic Unemployment' phase... I like the Pro one. That's exciting they made an even better model. That might be a better solution than an Echo Dot for my Realistic system in the living room (I've got a little Fosi amp/BT thingie in my console in the family room. That's good enough for it. But the living room is an actual stereo where I'll care more about streaming BT sound if I put the 5B up there. Not hifi, but not Fosi level, either.)

Completed my 2 eval CDs.

Tester 1 is things I chose and some my family likes:



Tester 2 is recommended stuff from 'Net lists:

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On my disc:

- Vital signs is probably the worst recording on both discs. Almost all my Rush stuff sounds blunted (as I mentioned in the SDA playlist thread). But, it has a back and forth and some snappy drums and punctuated base, so I wanted to test it as my one Rush song.

- Walking in Your Footsteps is not my favorite Police song, but it has great width and tone. So it'll be a good comparison.

- Prison Sex will test the low end. [insert prison sex joke here]

- Ramble On and I Heard it Through the Grapevine are 2 of my favorite stereo effect songs, so they had to be included.

On the recommended disc:

Everything is from 'must use!' lists. Though, Das Spiegel was going on my personal CD at first, because I've enjoyed using it to tweak my system the past couple of years.

---

I don't have a massive CD collection, but I'll take suggestions for a 3rd disc of songs from my fellow Polk folk

Who knows, maybe I have what you suggest!

skipshot12

I definitely 2nd heiney9’s recommend on optical.
I actually take it a step further and opt for actual glass toslink over plastic. Just be careful with the bend radius.

Only time other types of connect cables surpass optical is when going to more than 2-channel (surround & the likes) stereo.

Audioquest makes some really nice glass fiber toslinks, which is what I’ve been using for years.
Not sure if it’s the AT&T patented glass fiber optic which, I heard many moons ago was the TOL.
Neat thing about the glass toslink vs plastic you’re not looking at crazy esoteric prices.

I have to say this…. I have no observations personally that the glass sounds better, it’s just one of those tweak things that make me feel better.

And fiber, whether plastic or glass, are totally immune to RFI and the like.
No shielding required there.

Gardenstater

@plastic_avatar audirvana software is interesting to me because it might get around the shortcoming of the TIDAL app in Logitech Media Server software I use with the SBT, which is free. It doesn't have MQA capability, which is no surprise because who is going to pay their license fees when writing a free app out of the goodness of their heart for a long since discontinued streaming device lol? But I balk at the $70 annual fee which is bound to keep getting raised going forward. I'm cheap, but all these subscription fees for entertainment add up to a pretty big deal. That might not be a problem for you though.

Another issue you might have with it is that they seem to currently only support streaming from TIDAL, Qobuz, and HiResaudio at this time, although they say more are coming.

PS: Listening to some of your songlists I've never heard

Gardenstater

@plastic_avatar If you can stream it in CD quality, try using as a test track: "Birds" by Domique Fils-Aime from "Nameless". Hat tip VR3. Great transients and imaging and vocals and deep deep bass.

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Jeezus

Mary

and Josephus

o.O


That's a heck of a thing, that SDA stuff...

[time of SDA heartbeat, 00:35]

[time of phone call from my youngest whom I didn't know was upstairs sleeping with her new dog in the family room, 01:02]

[amp off at 01:09, til tomorrow]

[01:14, possible related issue to SDA??? my tinnitus is SCREAMING! Noooooooo!!!]

Now wouldn't that be a crazy side effect?

More to fill in on my testing tonight, come tomorrow.

Thanks for all the help, gang!

THEY'RE ALIVE!!!!

xschop

Would love to hear them on first fire-up. It's like when you build a custom ride and hit the ignition. Good times.

audioluvr

Phones are the ultimate source for DAC quality! Everyone else is full of ship!

xschop

Dunno about that, but Polks are the ultimate source for SDA quality.

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1C test, prologue

xschop wrote: »

Would love to hear them on first fire-up. It's like when you build a custom ride and hit the ignition. Good times.

That's an accurate comparison

And just like that, sometimes the carb needs adjusted, or you find out two of the wires are swapped on the distributor. and you spend hours tracking it down to fix...



Off the bench and onto the floor

They were in position at 17:30, and I went immediately into testing with the 2 CDs I pushed through the Monitor 12 this week.

- I have graphs of my unscientific by-ear impressions.

- Didn't get a stereo image from the 1C with cable attached. Evaluated songs with the cable and without. Without, image was there. They sounded better than the M12, either way, overall. was very pleased by everything but the stereo effect.

- Checked cable. No problem.

- Picture above is me on the floor checking wires and connections. I reversed the wires from the crossover to the plate. Terminals and SDA connections were in the right place, thankfully. Figuring that out and fixing took 90 minutes. Made a better set of passive gaskets while I had things apart.


- Immediately, after that when the music hit them, the left stereo image on Whole Lotta Love went into the wall 3 feet away. SLAM! Soundstage went nutso wide. My brain had a really hard time reconciling that. The right side caught up as the song pushed more info over.

- I can't listen again until tonight, but Killing in the Name Of, for example, was astonishing.

- The mids are much improved over the M12. In any of the 3 outputs while testing the 1C (no sda, flawed sda, full sda).

- Treble is richer than on the M12, but maybe not as sharp. I think I rated the clarity a notch lower, but with the caveat that the sound was more enjoyable. Double Wuhans do the job. I was honestly surprised how much I liked them, and was prepared to rip them out and tweak during testing.

- You'll see my initial disappointment in the stereo effect (and pinpointing sounds) while troubleshooting in the spreadsheet data (and the positives, too). If anyone cared

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skipshot12

Hmmmmm….
Any ideas?

bcwsrt

.

skipshot12

With the sda cable not connected is everything ok?
I’ll ask an obvious… did you reverse speaker, (L & R) to verify it’s not the source?

Gardenstater

So, now that you have fixed the problem (?), how does it sound when playing your test CD's?

skipshot12

Oooops, must have skipped over the part it was fixed.
Pay no attention to the man behind……

plastic_avatar

@skipshot12 Everything the past few days was written with brain drain on tap. I didn't make it 100% clear in the way I formatted the text.

@Gardenstater OH JAH. CDs ist da bomb. ZOOM! And they've made the choice for me that I need a DAC, period, for the computer & streaming stuff. And I'm looking into upgrading my phono preamp's caps, too.

I'll be ranking the 1C w/ SDA working on my eval form the next couple of days.

plastic_avatar

Bass troubleshooting

I might not have a problem, because I'm just starting the SDA-active portion of my testing, but...

Hey @heiney9, @audioluvr, @skipshot12, @Navy_Goat, and others:

Leak testing

If you do a leak test on your speakers:

- how far in and how fast do you push your passives, and

- how do you measure the time it takes for the mids to return close to their default positions, like

- do you measure time from pressing the passive in, or from when the mids reach apogee before they start going back down to the default position?

And what's the result?

I'm having trouble measuring.

If I compare cone movement between the Monitor 12 and the 1C they're within 1/4 to 1/2 second of each other as I see it. But I'm not sure if I'm pushing in hard enough, or fast enough, or measuring what to where soon enough...

Totally different gaskets and big mods, but similar cone movement. But I feel, anecdotally, before I get further, that the bass on the 1C is less forceful than the M12. Like air pressure-wise, in my ears.

So, before I dive too deeply, Gardenstater said 'Hey, check with the other guys.'

Polarity test

Plus, he and xschop have me triple-checking my polarity when I get a chance.

And I'll compare bass between SDA active and off.

AND this is with the 1C not raised like the M12. So I'll do that, too.

I do wonder if the mw models + SDA + different passive design means the M12s produce a more forceful bass experience...

And I'd love to see the leak test on new 1C owner @robosdad's pair for reference- if he's game. He just did multiple magnet fixins over on lawdogg's thread.

skipshot12

Best way I can describe the leak down test...
When pushing in the passive you'll see a point where the MW's stop excursion of coming out.
From that point hold the passive at that point
With the MW's no longer coming out any further, and holding the passive at that point, start counting seconds to where the MW's stop receding.
If you have a good seal, when the MW's stop receding while the passive is still pushed in at the same point, release the passive and you should see the MW's recede a bit more to their resting position.

Not sure my step by step is actually clear as to what you're seeing or doing.

Maybe a video of what actually should be happening on the leak down would be nice to see?