Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

Gardenstater · January 2023

I checked the manual and they do stress that the speakers will have better bass response when placed close to the rear wall. Hopefully there are no leaks and you just have your M12s closer to the wall than your 1Cs:

plastic_avatar · January 2023

Same distance. Roughly same position, but M12 were toed-in.

15.5 inches from wall.

Eventually, I'll replace the tv stand and stereo rack with shallower pieces.

I'll move the M12 out and put the 1C back 7+ inches before I do the full comparison tests this week.

They sound so frakking clear compared to the M12, the Rti10, and my homegrowns, even out from the wall and before I'm sure all is as it should be. That live Hotel California from CD is just astonishingly clear.

After I finish this phase for the 1C, and after I complete the tweaked 5B, I might re-do the M12 crossovers with Clarity caps, do the same mods, and see what they sound like then. Having 3 setups for SDA, stereo, and near(er) field would be a cool thing to have

I'll report back after tomorrow. I have an unrelated project to wrap up.

Gardenstater · January 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

They sound so frakking clear compared to the M12, the Rti10, and my homegrowns, even out from the wall and before I'm sure all is as it should be. That live Hotel California from CD is just astonishingly clear.

That's what pluggin' and foamin' do. ✌

Jazzhead · January 2023

The Hotel California cut- very clear, well recorded, and the low conga beat can shake the room even with my little 12's. Your neighbors should be looking around when you play that one.

skipshot12 · January 2023

Haven’t heard hotel California on my Polk’s yet. Need to give it a go.

^ Is the conga beat you’re talking about on the live version?

Jazzhead · January 2023

Yes. Eagles, Hell Freezes Over

invalid · January 2023

Too bad all live recordings didn't sound that good.

Jazzhead · January 2023

Also, @plastic_avatar the congas and timbales on that cut are tuned instruments. You should be able to hear a specific pitch for each. I found that the @xschop phase plugs improved my speakers ability to reproduce the pitch of percussion instruments like those mentioned above, steel drums, timpani etc.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

Closer to recommended position.

I understand objects interfere with SDA. Best I can manage at the moment.

@Jazzhead It's a beautifully recorded CD, and new to me this year. Those guitars are fantastic.

I just put The Gereg by The Hu in, as background music to celebrate the 1C getting into position, while I worked. A fair to good studio mix following that Eagles CD, @invalid, made me frown a little bit [sadface]. Note to self: Listen to lesser mixes first when in a queue...

But I know I need to adjust something... because my thump und thwack is different from bench> burn-in> realizing I had wires crossed to terminals> SDA coming to life> moving into testing position. Gardenstater and xschop have a list of things for me to diagnose =P

Initial thoughts just messing around while I figure things out before actual evaluation

- The tone, Lordy, is wonderful.
- The highs are smooth and pleasant.
- The highs probably miss a little 198 sparkle, but they're so much better to listen to (for me) than a 2000.
- The midrange fill is clear and easy to enjoy.
- Imaging and depth are pretty frakking good.
- The bass is there, just not as forceful as expected (based on M12 performance). Much testing/teardown in my future (starting tomorrow).

xschop · January 2023

I would also be curious if the M12 were easier to drive than the 1Cs.

txcoastal1 · January 2023

Are you finished?

F1nut · February 2023

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Are you finished destroying your speakers?

Fixed it for ya

plastic_avatar · February 2023

@txcoastal1 Almost! [makes whining noises]

I'm going to:

- double-check my wires from the crossover to the bass inductor

- double-check polarity on mids

- go back and seal the terminal plates from the inside completely

- check for air leaks around my custom tweeter plates

- put a bead of goop on the interior seams while I've got everything out for the final checks.

I really miss the finality and assurances of sealing with Mortite =\

I guess I can look into the gain settings on my amp, too? Hadn't thought about changes to that with different speakers. Anyone with advice on that, hit me!

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Success!

5 hour teardown.
Leak test a-o.k.
Upper SDA mid in each needed wires swapped.
Both tweeters on right out of phase.

Holy moly. There's my bass! And the right side matches the left better, duh. I thought the difference in sides was wall 'treatment' on the left. Nope.

@Jazzhead I get the skins now that I found my bass

(I know these are phone recordings in a cluttered room, but...)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x_ardtdUXxuLj6hPufTk3svVlqc0VFde/view?usp=drivesdk

And a little Rage for the wild Krankus haunting my chimney;

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-ND9EevY63ZjJnWcLtA9mtLPW1KGP6ge/view?usp=drivesdk

Failure never sounded so good.

Now to finish the eval this week, and compare the data.

xschop · February 2023

Failure is a term reserved only for those who surrender.

Great job resurrecting these gems.

Gardenstater · February 2023

Nice man I'm happy for ya! Destroying your speakers never sounded so good lol! Super clear wood knocks on Hotel California.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

I started with a Stonehenge arrangement for working on the right speaker atop the left (so I didn't have to bend over to work.

After 3 hours on that one, the last 2 were me working on the right speaker on the floor like the stubborn guy I am. I couldn't stand nor sit anymore while I worked, so laying on the floor, it was!

Eval data after this weekend, likely.

xschop · February 2023

Congrats are in order. You completely rebuilt and modded a full set of SDA's faster than F1 could install a set of tweeter plates.

skipshot12 · February 2023

Aaaaaah more better.
Bass sounded good thru my Apple earbuds plugged into the computer.
Great job.

Gardenstater · February 2023

I can definitely hear a nice tight thump on the HC. Phone mics generally not that good for bass. Bass might be more if you removed those grilles that are behind the speakers. I don't know how much they would attenuate but something to try.....

Will be interesting to compare in the future if you swap out the sub bass inductors for a larger awg one, maybe even a foil one.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

I'm more intrigued by the inductors now than I was.

I'd talked myself out of them.

Now I've listened myself back in =P

Grilles are just there to hide my wires [chuckles]. I'll remove them to match to the M12 setup.

Jazzhead · February 2023

If you can access a good quality version, crank Trombone Shorty's "Big 12" off of For True. I haven't heard it on SDA, but it's recorded with big dynamics, and excellent reproduction of brass instruments.

Gardenstater · February 2023

As someone else mentioned elsewhere, one of my go to ones for system testing is Soolaimon by Neil Diamond, preferably the hi rez version.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Anecdotal evaluation, as critical as I could manage for myself

If you want to know how I evaluated the speakers, and what the data looks like on graphs, here you go, nerds

I was surprised by my results in places. I'll talk about that in a follow-up.

All songs on CDs, burned from FLACs, played on my Nakamichi player, digital out to the Yamaha HTR-5960 I'm using as a pre, set to Direct, volume at -40 (I really don't like Yamaha's volume system), amp set to same gain levels for both speakers.

PDF has graphical representations of my scoring.

Notes

M12 is first, 1C is second:

Get Back: Recording probably has a lot to do with the refinement of the mix.

Get Back: Need to double-check speakers, but nice. Volume. Needs a little more.

Heard it through the grapevine: Vocals are recessed, like Get Back. This first listen is at 40 on my dial. Might contribute, and bass is hidden back at this volume on this mix.

Heard it from the grapevine: Volume again. I worry about treble, then something nice jumps out... like the violins at the end.

Ramble On: Better mix than Get Back and Grapevine.. Voice a little more to the surface, but still a little obscured. Sources don't exactly feel like a whole.

Ramble On: That was nice. Plant still sounds subdued, but it seems to more match the recording. Some parts were legit 3 feet outside the speakers. Volume... Like to rate turned up 5...

Anoana: Newer, better recording that absolutely wanted the low end to come through. And it does at this volume. Main voice still a little trapped in a plane between the 2 speakers, neither forward or behind.

Anoana: Voices recessed compared to the rest.. low end and mid fill very rich. wonder if volume would affect.

Prison Sex: Soundstage was from ls to rs, but pieces weren't... nice? They were just there. Sure cymbals hit different speakers, but meh for ss. Bass there, but more like a feeling than defined, except at the end. Drums sound muted.

Prison Sex: Creak at beginning was good. There's the low end. Needs volume. Pretty much background level.

Tears of a Clown: Sounds like music is missing, bass guitar, horn blurts. Too bright.

Tears of a clown: There is a piece missing in this mix... A blurt and a carnival sound... Voice is bright. Pieces aren't really a mix.

Whole Lotta Love: What a great recording. Nothing on my personal list comes close. If the 1C do better, that's a win. Vocals still on a restricted plane inbetween speakers. Drums obscured, but separation of everything else was great.

Whole lotta love: Well now. This slightly skews the 1c a little higher on all its graphs, if used. This wasn't in the original data. I left it out somehow. Wooooo, baby. Sound to the walls, and the rotating sound felt like it was both going through my head and above it. Voices on all Zep's old stuff has his voice too far back, though. Same for old Stone's recordings. Mixes of the times?

Money: Very low gain compared to other recordings. Everything was small sounding. Like a band of tiny people playing tiny instruments. Treble was pleasant, but not scintillating. Voices still a little muted.

Money: Even subdued, everything was clear.
----/
The Chain: There's info missing. Same volume as Money. Can't make out the bass.. Vocals smushed together. hard to make Stevie out until the end. But the voices are just suppressed. It almost worked, but didn't. Drums sounded like a drum machine.

The Chain: Voices still mushed. When bass hit at 3:20, you can hear the strings undulate as they vibrate. Super nice. Will likely change impact at higher volume. It's a low mix for dynamism.

When Doves Cry: I know this song. It's missing something. The richness of the guitarist's voice is missing. Highs are fine, but keyboard is muted. His bype'ing seemed low. Sounded thin, like something was missing.

When Doves Cry: Rhythm guitarist's voice sounds right! Recording is subdued. Vocals a little back from where I want them. Not a super dynamic experience. Wonder if more volume would help. Voices very pleasant, just want more.

In Bloom: Might be the grunge, but it was kind of fuzzy until the quiet parts. Voice was clear, but not as forward as I wanted. Bass guitar low.

In Bloom: It's all there, just... grungy.

Killing in the name of: Wow. This was great. Everything better than most other recordings. These speakers were made for that song?

Killing in the name of: That kicks it up a notch. Still think these need more juice to hit same volume as M12. Very full sounding.

Hotel california: Great recording. Balanced. Lead still a little recessed. But damn, what a great recording. Crowd sounds right, too.

Hotel California: Smooth. Def. needs more volume, but keeping the same. strings are gorgeous, bass is there. low end is there. Curious about added sparkle if using different dome on top tweeters...

Dad Spiegel: Excellent. Tall. Electronic music is great.

Das Spiegel: Tight, clear, pleasantly balanced. Treble sparkle not there, but treble smoothness is. Not fatiguing at all. Not as harsh as M12 throughout.

Made it through?

I appreciate the ongoing help and advice.

I'm not finished, yet, but maybe finished with the big tweaks for now.

Unless I replace the upper Wuhan domes with a couple of others that might have more sparkle. I think the transition from mids to the lower tweeter is wonderful.

Still need to see about adjusting the gain on the amp for these.

Gardenstater · February 2023

I made it through

I suggest normalizing the 1C volume to the M12s by using whitenoise and a Decibel measuring app that averages over time and has 0.1dB resolution. You can find the volume settings required for each speaker to achieve a good sPL level that is equal and good for eval.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Ah. Didn't think about that. Thank you!

One of the surprising things, to me, was how (even at a lower output) the 1C scored well. I didn't see that until I looked at the graphs. I actually thought they scored lower than they actually did, almost across the board. A benefit of days between listening to one set and then the other.

I'm going to run a cable over to the M12 and measure at some point this week. We'll see if it was lower on the 1C, or just my feeling.

Gardenstater · February 2023

One song missing above^ ? 14 songs but pdf shows 15.

Very scientific

So overall enjoyment score of 108 for the 1C vs 98 for the M12

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Walking in Your Footsteps. I messed up the notes on those. Don't know if the 2nd one is accurate. Left it out.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Fixed an error in the soundstage graph, thanks GS!

Corrected pdf for graph data:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IcAEwxkexbb97bNxvRrqhKLZXWVXdHx2/view?usp=drivesdk

Gardenstater wrote: »

So overall enjoyment score of 108 for the 1C vs 98 for the M12

I'm a harsh critic.

Infamously so.

My favorite color ink is red.

My grad work was in documentary (emphasis on diplomacy, conflict resolution, plus objective and subjective truth).

But what does that matter to this project and this thread?

I may seem skewed to bubbles and good will, but I'm honestly judging and evaluating everything, all the time [laughs]. It's one reason I dig DK's evaluations.

But, when I was a wee lad, my favorite monster in D&D was the Revenant.

Because what better way to right the wrongs against you after death, than to return as a righteous arbiter of revenge that spares the innocent and punishes the guilty?

Sooooooo!

I probably would rate the 1C even higher, if I wasn't me. I debated changing the numbers by 1 to the positive. I subtracted 1 because of the added scrutiny evaluating them after the teardowns. Thought about it while rating it on each song. Decided to leave it and see how it panned out. Since I haven't looked at the numbers, it surprises me that the 1C came out ahead.

mhardy6647 · February 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Anecdotal evaluation, as critical as I could manage for myself

If you want to know how I evaluated the speakers, and what the data looks like on graphs, here you go, nerds ...

All songs on CDs, burned from FLACs, played on my Nakamichi player, digital out to the Yamaha HTR-5960 I'm using as a pre, set to Direct, volume at -40 (I really don't like Yamaha's volume system), amp set to same gain levels for both speakers.

So...
1) any Nakamachi player in particular? E.g., an OMS-7 or something like that?
2) what are you using as a power amplifier?

Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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