Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

plastic_avatar · January 2023

@txcoastal1

That's *exactly* what I needed right now.

[snort laughs]

Ima have to record the story of my 1 time on a track a few years back for all these pros like @Navy_Goat @skipshot12 @Clipdat ...

dpowell · January 2023

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Contact Magnepan for the grill cloth. You will need to find black paint to paint the frames because the cloth is exceptionally shear. The good news is that you will never need to take the grills off and you can still see hints of the drivers in certain lighting conditions. It is the best cloth you can get. It is more expensive but worth every penny.

Agreed. I have John's former 1.2TLs with this grill cloth and it is very nice.

audioluvr · January 2023

I wish you all the best. I honestly do. My concerns with your project is, and as others here tried to get you to understand is everyone's perception of what sounds good is individually unique.
For example:
1. crossover components can add or detract to the sound signature ( removing the poly switch, replacing with a jumper or using different value/ brand resistors) to your liking.
2. Tweeters: Some people prefer the SL2000's. Some people think that the Wuhan modded tweeters suck but could be made better with modifying the resistor values
3. Driver basket mods can, to some, suck the life out of the mids or lower frequencies
4. Modifying the driver dust cap could alter the overall weight/efficiency/frequency curve in a positive OR negative way. Not to mention the cones could possibly come in contact with the grille cloth during low frequency demands.

None of these points you will ever know about because you never established a baseline or progression line. You are basically stuck with it.

IMHO you probably should have joined the DIY Audio forum rather than the Polk Audio Forum.

Just my 2 cents worth.

xschop · January 2023

#2 The Vit A doped wuhans sound better than non-doped wuhans. The jumper in lieu of Polyswitch vs. resistor there is not a deal breaker either.

#3 I have not seen or heard of anyone reporting any MW basket mod sucking life out of them... Please advise.

#4 is irredeemable... If the grill cloth makes contact with the phase plug, it will do so first by contacting the cone surround, so you would be calling out the original cabinet design.

I hope he stays and dilutes the cohort of whiners and general naysayer populace of this fine "forum".

audioluvr · January 2023

In your opinion.

xschop · January 2023

Your 2 cents must be worth more than mine due to inflationary pressures.

audioluvr · January 2023

It's just two cents!

bcwsrt · January 2023

xschop wrote: »

…

#3 I have not seen or heard of anyone reporting any MW basket mod sucking life out of them... Please advise.

…

That comment had me searching the forum for the better part of the past hour since I plan on using some leftover Dynamat-type product I have on my 15TL baskets soon.

I didn’t find anything negative.

Is there some other potentially “life-sucking” basket mod?

Toolfan66 · January 2023

xschop wrote: »

#2 The Vit A doped wuhans sound better than non-doped wuhans. The jumper in lieu of Polyswitch vs. resistor there is not a deal breaker either.

#3 I have not seen or heard of anyone reporting any MW basket mod sucking life out of them... Please advise.

#4 is irredeemable... If the grill cloth makes contact with the phase plug, it will do so first by contacting the cone surround, so you would be calling out the original cabinet design.

I hope he stays and dilutes the cohort of whiners and general naysayer populace of this fine "forum".

So anyone that disagrees is now a whiner? Might as well cancel us, that seems to be the in thing these days.

I actually don't think most of us give a shiznit, at the end of the day they are his to do as he wishes, but that doesn't mean we have to like what we see, not share an opinion, or poke a little fun with him. he actually takes it quite well, and will dish it back, I can respect that.

Nothing here in this thread is that important to take that seriously..

skipshot12 · January 2023

^ I have done the basket damping and it definitely did not suck the life out of my speakers.
That mod did exactly what others said it would do, and I research quite a bit.

I have the 3rd gen SDA SRS' and would have noticed any suck out as these are what I would call a laid back speaker.
I found the mod tightened up my midrange along with a more solid punch to drums.

Just my opinion....

Gardenstater · January 2023

bcwsrt wrote: »

xschop wrote: »

…

#3 I have not seen or heard of anyone reporting any MW basket mod sucking life out of them... Please advise.

…

That comment had me searching the forum for the better part of the past hour since I plan on using some leftover Dynamat-type product I have on my 15TL baskets soon.

I didn’t find anything negative.

Is there some other potentially “life-sucking” basket mod?

It is vaporware of the mind. Like when Siskel and Ebert got in trouble for reviewing movies they had never seen. Oh wait a minute............that never happened did it?

lightman1 · January 2023

I like hot dogs

Jstas · January 2023

lightman1 wrote: »

I like hot dogs

You would.

nooshinjohn · January 2023

Jstas wrote: »

lightman1 wrote: »

I like hot dogs

You would.

He's a sucker for a footlong...

xschop · January 2023

Toolfan66 wrote: »

xschop wrote: »

#2 The Vit A doped wuhans sound better than non-doped wuhans. The jumper in lieu of Polyswitch vs. resistor there is not a deal breaker either.

#3 I have not seen or heard of anyone reporting any MW basket mod sucking life out of them... Please advise.

#4 is irredeemable... If the grill cloth makes contact with the phase plug, it will do so first by contacting the cone surround, so you would be calling out the original cabinet design.

I hope he stays and dilutes the cohort of whiners and general naysayer populace of this fine "forum".

So anyone that disagrees is now a whiner? Might as well cancel us, that seems to be the in thing these days.

I actually don't think most of us give a shiznit, at the end of the day they are his to do as he wishes, but that doesn't mean we have to like what we see, not share an opinion, or poke a little fun with him. he actually takes it quite well, and will dish it back, I can respect that.

Nothing here in this thread is that important to take that seriously..

I reserve the term "whiner" for those regurgitating ill rhetoric about a subject or procedure they themselves haven't accomplished. Maybe the term "bandwagon echo-chamber associate" suffices.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

This isn't for anyone in particular, just a PSA

Take a step back with me, take a breath, look at all the effort I put into this with your help..

Now! We can get closer to the climax of all this collaboration:

'Will Steve and his family like these once beater 1C straight from the workbench to the stereo?'

Continue to give me some cooperative insight you brainiacs!

WARNING! THIS IS LOOOOOOOOONG!

TLDR = It's lists of mods and thoughts. Skip to the end of the next post for an unrelated video link.

To jump back in for a project refresher and do a little talking about the mods (plus their potential impact):

- Crossovers: I don't think I did anything out of the norm. Clarity caps and Mills resistors for me. But I am trying to do something that I hope will make my soldering life easier. More on that in a day or few.

- Glue magnets: A must. I haven't done the tweeters yet, but I will when I mess with them sometime this year. Did the mw before installation, to make sure they were all set and good to go.

- Dynamat on outer baskets: No problem. Pretty much standard as a must-do mod. I went generic and cheaper on this build than Noico (my preference). Aluminized butyl pipe wrap works (thanks xschop). I don't know that I'll be able to tell the difference in sound. We shall see.

- Hurricane nuts: A standard mod, though there is debate about which kind of nut head to use.

- BH5: A little goes a long way. As long as we stay with the 4x4 squares, 1 behind each mw, things should be fine. A standard mod. Made possible by the letters x, y, and skipshot12.

- Semi-rings/braces: Another 'definite gains' mod. Thanks to xschop, again.

- Custom gaskets: Standard issue mod. Some like Armacel (it was too thick for me). Some like PVA or craft foam (I really like that). Some go old school and use Mortite (I did on my Monitor 12, and they'll be fine. You might want to avoid if you are afraid the drivers will be hard to remove later).

- Foam on inner baskets: I'll be able to tell if the sound is lifeless. Even without my Monitor 12 as a comparison, I'll be able to tell. If it is a problem? I'll take it off (that'll be a lot quicker for me than putting it on). Easy. No harm to my project. Another opinion for the scoreboard either way. (The baskets are really terrible by today's hifi standards. Where Dynamat has proven benefits reducing ringing, foam may also prove beneficial for ye olde reflected sound back out through the cone. It's a mod in its infancy, and the only way to test it is to do it.)

- Wuhans: I like them better than the 2000 in the 5B. By a wide margin. I doped my domes in layers to try and get to a similar coverage as the 198 in the M12. I used that custom felt/wool piece I made, instead of just a plug of material behind the dome. My plan with the 5B is to take actual measurements of the 2000, an un-doped Wuhan with felt, and un-doped Wuhan with my printed piece, and then the same with a doped dome. I'm super curious if my preference over the 2000 is because it is better performing overall *or* if it's just because that spike is gone. Again, a no harm no foul upgrade. Easily swapped out for the 194 if I decide to this year. And the experience I gained from the work was great. Especially thankful to @VSAT88 , @xschop , @Gardenstater , and @Tony M, especially.

- Dust caps: I hadn't heard of an issue with excursion, but it very well could affect a parameter that modifies the functional capability of the speaker- pro or con. Most dust caps weight so little, and offer so little structural support, I'm not too worried about it on a 40 year old drive that didn't exactly have Lexus-level tolerances, BUT it's a valid concern.

- Phase Plugs: The SDA unknown! Using them on non-SDA Polks has, to my knowledge, been either 100% successful or close. DK's experiment with his CRS is one excellent (per his usual) test. There are a lot of things to potentially tweak and re-visit, if anyone is curious enough to do so. I dove in because, well, xschop was very generous. I'm in, whole hog. We shall see how it affects the effect. I think there are a few possibilities, and I'm willing to experiment more. I'm a fan of plugged drivers. This is the hardest of the mods to reverse *if* I decide to. I think some felt/wool will smooth out any bumps. One of my side interests is directivity and omni-directional sound, so I can see a few possibilities to watch for. And thanks to @Gardenstater for the shims. I would've pulled my hair out otherwise. After I plug my Monitor 12, they'll be available for another person who needs them. (Yes, if I like it on the 1C, I plan to phase plug my Monitor 12, but let's not worry about that right now...)

- Dynamatting the passive chamber: Yes, it's anecdotal, but people designed speakers for a long time before they had computers to measure them in lieu of ears. I prefer my Monitor 12 with Noico installed all around the passive chamber. It took the bass from boomy a exaggerated to tight and focused. At first I thought I'd rally mess up, but then the music said 'Nope, it's just more accurate.'. Dynamat is not like BH5 or Sonic Barrier or polyfill. It's more for taming resonance. And these cabinets on the big boys are made poorly. They're not braced enough. The walls aren't thick enough. The material isn't dense enough. It was fine back in the day for the money, but now we expect more. The Dynamat helps tame some of that resonant vibration in the cabinet. It's still reflective (not as much as the bare wood), but (importantly) not as conductive to sound as the bare wood. It works for me, it's anecdotal. I'm using the aluminized butyl pipe wrap this time, just to see how it fares, but actual bracing would be awesome. But you start adding that in, and that changes interior volume... This is another contentious mod, but reversible and easy.

- Terminal plates: No problem. Just a functional upgrade.

- Tweeter plates: No problem. Just a functional upgrade for the new domes. And I'll make them available to anyone who has a printer and wants to try out the Wuhan mods on their own. I'll include the file for the backwave diffuser disc for the dome, too.

- New terminals and Neutrik plugged SDA cable: Super easy. Man, the Neutrik cable build was a breeze. I had no idea. The terminals are an easy upgrade. The new cable is easy, but you have to either make/buy a custom plate *or* mod your original. I'll make my file available to anyone who wants to print their own, instead of cutting into their originals.

- Spikes/Stands: In my room, the Monitor 12 perform best on 10 inch high stands. I expect the same from the 1C. A friend will help me make stands. This is specific to my listening area. I will install spikes of some kind, either on the stands or the 1C. I can't remember who recommended a cheap spike solution... and I need one!

- Bracing: This could probably go in the next list. I might do the bare minimum and run a couple of dowels front to back (or more...) around the passive. There's just a lot of unsupported face there. This is a nothingburger mod, imo. It won't hurt, and shouldn't offset the air volume enough to matter. But, probably contentious, but easy to take back off.

What did I forget?

plastic_avatar · January 2023

Future mods for the coming year, or maybe never... depending on finances and how much I'm satisfied with these things after all this work in year 1:

- Wiring: This is a must. Those oxidized old connectors, ugh. I'm going to upgrade the wiring and solder it in at some point in year 2. No drama.

- Coils: As easy as soldering in caps. No debate. Only problem is, to get the good ones, it's between $230 and $300, depending on the exchange rate to England. Holy crap, thanks for the help figuring that out @VR3 . If any 1C owners want that list, I've got it up in my cart on the supplier.

- Grill cloth: No brainer, but need to look at budget to decide between JoAnn Fabrics or Magnepan. Thanks @Anovak and @nooshinjohn .

- THE DK DREADN(A/O)UGHT: The 800 coil is available. The 1000 coil is not. Still likely $400+ to build one with the 800 coil. Everyone who tries it likes it. I'll consider this if I decide that I'm going to chase after the big pair of SDA.

- New Wuhan domes or the 194: We'll see what I think as I live with the 1C and my current version, but I am open to whatever I need to do to be happy. All signs right now point to I'll be happy. But I like to have options.

I do appreciate everyone's help:

Apart from those I tagged above, I've gotten helpful thoughts, insight, and info from @Navy_Goat , @audioluvr , @F1nut , @DarqueKnight , @pitdogg2 , and all the people in the thread I can't think of right now.

And I hope anyone who wants to chime in does so while this continues.

And please accept that I did this project the way I did for my own valid (if unknown to you) reasons.

As a breather, if anyone wants a rewind to college nerds 22 years ago, to check out my Communications project from 2001. It's kind of related to all this forum talk... tangentially... because Interwebs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjbDIRDWMh4

plastic_avatar · January 2023

And being from WV, we have particular tastes in hotdogs.

Snicker all you want, lowlanders.

BEHOLD!

https://www.southernfoodways.org/slaw-abiding-citizens-a-quest-for-the-west-virginia-hot-dog/

txcoastal1 · January 2023

I like a good hotdog...

The problem is hotdogs usually come in a pack of 10
Damn buns come in a back of 8

Lowest common denominator is friggin' 40...seriously w t f #facepalm

So I guess Oscar Mayer was banging Mrs Bairds...they had a few drinks ...good ol' Oscar came up with this "hold my beer" idea

xschop · January 2023

Gardenstater wrote: »

bcwsrt wrote: »

xschop wrote: »

…

#3 I have not seen or heard of anyone reporting any MW basket mod sucking life out of them... Please advise.

…

That comment had me searching the forum for the better part of the past hour since I plan on using some leftover Dynamat-type product I have on my 15TL baskets soon.

I didn’t find anything negative.

Is there some other potentially “life-sucking” basket mod?

It is vaporware of the mind. Like when Siskel and Ebert got in trouble for reviewing movies they had never seen. Oh wait a minute............that never happened did it?

Kinda like the snot-nosed kid on the playground bragging about his Snickers, when his derelict parents didn't even pack him a lunch?

txcoastal1 · January 2023

https://youtu.be/3B0OpNMtfMU

invalid · January 2023

Just curious, why you need the 1C's on 10" stands are you standing when listening?

Jazzhead · January 2023

I can only speak for my old speakers and gear (6500 drivers). I can't measure anything, I only have my ears. The inner-basket foam mod noticabley increases midrange clarity, especially the understanding of lyrics and other detail in that frequency range. After experimentation/listening I found this mod works best with a corresponding reduction of BH5/Sonic Barrier. I went from 4x4 to 3x3 inches behind drivers. I noticed no loss of "life", but did notice that I had to give a bit more juice to achieve the same, pre-mod volume - therefore "something" is being absorbed (otherwise this mod would be ineffectual). There may be a loss of lower frequencies that I can't detect, but if that is the case I made the choice to trade that for the beneficial increase in midrange clarity (after you hear it, you can't go back). That said, my speakers produce tuneful low-end thunder when the recording calls for it.

Jazzhead · January 2023

noticeably...

skipshot12 · January 2023

Dang it, hotdogs...
I do miss a good dog.
In WY we're hotdog handicapped!
Miss my Sabrett dogs with red onion sauce, that's yummy goodness.

Feeling kinda taaad right now to do a search,
What's a Phase Plug poor-favor?

plastic_avatar · January 2023

invalid wrote: »

Just curious, why you need the 1C's on 10" stands are you standing when listening?

I'm 6'4. and the furniture means, for the best coverage in the whole room, the stands put the Monitors at the right level from my seat and standing behind it. I'm making the 1C stands so the mw are at the same level as the Monitors.

I know that height works for the mw hitting me just right, and since they are physically similar and will throw sound in roughly the same pattern (save for the tweets), I think it'll work the way I expect.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

Sabrett onions... I knew not of this. Now I do. I will make.

plastic_avatar · January 2023

skipshot12 wrote: »

What's a Phase Plug poor-favor?

Speaker teats.

xschop makes them out of shiny, gorgeous aluminum.

Great reports from people doing the mod on their stereo Polks.

Only report so far (I think) on an SDA is DK's test on a CRS?

I tried it with a printed plastic plug on one of my 5B. I was really pleased by the difference. (I copied xschop's design.)

So, I went all-in and went ahead and put them on all 8 of the 1C mw.

In another world, a version of me added them 1 at a time, in different combinations, to see what works best. There might be an optimal configuration for having 2 SDA drivers on one side and 2 stereo in the other. Dunno.

An experiment for another day, or person.

skipshot12 · January 2023

^ 👍

BlueBirdMusic · January 2023

Pretty entertaining so far. Let's see what happens in the coming years.

Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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