Spearker cables..fact or fiction?
Comments
-
OK, I think the issue is material that is not suitable for sound (IE: Glass walls and marbles) ratter than the looks. Big $$$ in sound equipment which is not optimized due to poor sound management material used for walling/ceiling/flooring. That is the point being made, NOT the looks or the expense.SolidSqual wrote: »I find criticisms such as the one described here are brought by people who may not be able to afford nicer gear, and feel someone who can afford nice gear and furthermore has the audacity to put it in a nice house . . . well, that person is a real snobby **** in their book.
Now, if you go back up in the discussion, you will notice that many don't see blind testing as an accurate mean to prove the usefullness or uselessness of the cable comparision.I used to think the same thing. Then I did an honest blind listening test. Suddenly those "huge" differences disappeared, not just for me, but for all the other participants as well.
For some reason, we could all hear the "huge" differences when we knew which cables were being used, go figure.
This subject has proven to be a very sensitive issue and there is no way to solve this issue with any technical, scientific or practical experience. Technical and scientific will say nay while the listener will say yay and your own post proves this by your own statements:
Your personal listening experience said YES while your technical experiment said NO. So, now you choose to trustt the technical/scientific testing over the listening experience while many choose to trust their listening experience instead. Thus, the entire discussion is simply subjective to ones preference, belief and/or experience.Then I did an honest blind listening test. Suddenly those "huge" differences disappeared,
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
-
OK, I think the issue is material that is not suitable for sound (IE: Glass walls and marbles) ratter than the looks. Big $$$ in sound equipment which is not optimized due to poor sound management material used for walling/ceiling/flooring. That is the point being made, NOT the looks or the expense.
Yes, I understand that. I'm just talking about the underlying motivation whether subliminal or otherwise.
EDIT: Some people like to badmouth gear they can't afford. And then, they convince themselves the gear is not worth the money so they can feel better about it. It's the "snobby audiophile" complex. -
SolidSqual wrote: »Yes, I understand that. I'm just talking about the underlying motivation whether subliminal or otherwise.
EDIT: Some people like to badmouth gear they can't afford. And then, they convince themselves the gear is not worth the money so they can feel better about it. It's the "snobby audiophile" complex.
Touche' .:D -
SolidSqual wrote: »Some people like to badmouth gear they can't afford. And then, they convince themselves the gear is not worth the money so they can feel better about it.
What? You think it's "sour grapes"?
Nahhhh...it couldn't be that. That would be wrong...and remember: naysayers are the "good" guys.;)
I absolutely HATE, HATE, HATE expensive cables.
Why? What have expensive cables...and the people who use them...ever done to you?~DK Nothing! I'm just mad because the only kind of cable that can take the heat down here is 0 gauge steel welding cable. Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
SolidSqual wrote: »Yes, I understand that. I'm just talking about the underlying motivation whether subliminal or otherwise.
EDIT: Some people like to badmouth gear they can't afford. And then, they convince themselves the gear is not worth the money so they can feel better about it. It's the "snobby audiophile" complex.
What's worse is some people like to badmouth good gear (IMO) that every one can afford cough Emotiva cough
-
The irony here is, he is an ex-Emotiva owner.What's worse is some people like to badmouth good gear (IMO) that every one can afford cough Emotiva cough"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Just received some HDMI 1.3 C.2 from Monoprice. These 24 Gauge HDMI cables with Net Jacket are awesome. They fit perfectly with my Pio gear. I tried to shake them lightly but they refused to come off . Good products for the price. Highly recommended.
Does anyone have good experience with their HDMI switcher? -
-
anhchungdoan wrote: »Just received some HDMI 1.3 C.2 from Monoprice. These 24 Gauge HDMI cables with Net Jacket are awesome. They fit perfectly with my Pio gear. I tried to shake them lightly but they refused to come off . Good products for the price. Highly recommended.
I use the Monoprice HDMI 1.3 cables in my home theater rig. I still have yet to see a performance difference in HDMI cables in my home theater system. Here is a link to an HDMI cable comparison I did a couple months ago: Tweaking Home Theater Pt. 4.
However, I don't doubt that other people, with other eyes, other televisions, other DVD and Blu-ray players, and other associated electronics and speakers DO see and hear a difference.
I am a cable cultist.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
What's worse is some people like to badmouth good gear (IMO) that every one can afford cough Emotiva cough
Eh, Emotiva isn't hated just criticized for marketing hype. I love them, just moved past them. -
Gear is a different subject than cables. I am convinced that most people that do not consider the extra expense on high end cable (not meaning garbage cable) consider that higher end gear is futile. I know I don't, there are different class of amping technology and we all know there is a price tag for this. I personnally don't think that for most the cable debate is the same as gear debate.SolidSqual wrote: »Yes, I understand that. I'm just talking about the underlying motivation whether subliminal or otherwise.
EDIT: Some people like to badmouth gear they can't afford. And then, they convince themselves the gear is not worth the money so they can feel better about it. It's the "snobby audiophile" complex.
Now, debate/beliefs/subtility are totally different than hate. No one that believe that high end cables are futile hate those cables or their users... simply a difference of opinions, simply subtle (in that specific discussion anyway).
However, I find arrogant, disrecpectfull people that jumps in discussions on the merit/evaluation/report/testing/reviews of such high end cables where people like DarqueKnight discuss such merits. If you want to read them, do so but refrain from trashing down their reviews. If you can't bear to even read their reviews, refrain from doing so. Why read some you don't believe in (maybe trying to convince your self?)? This discussion is fair for debating the pros and cons but not the discussions dedicated to the believers, who ever does such is rude and arrogant!
Cheers!
TK
Cheers!DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I use the Monoprice HDMI 1.3 cables in my home theater rig. I still have yet to see a performance difference in HDMI cables in my home theater system. Here is a link to an HDMI cable comparison I did a couple months ago: Tweaking Home Theater Pt. 4.
However, I don't doubt that other people, with other eyes, other televisions, other DVD and Blu-ray players, and other associated electronics and speakers DO see and hear a difference.
I am a cable cultist.
For abt 8 or 9 bucks a piece , these cables are too good for the price. I don't know much abt digital cable so I cannot say there is any difference or not. Judging by the way they are built, I am happy as long as they support 1080p. -
This subject has proven to be a very sensitive issue and there is no way to solve this issue with any technical, scientific or practical experience.
With the differences that people describe when listening to cables, it would be easy to settle this.Your personal listening experience said YES while your technical experiment said NO. So, now you choose to trustt the technical/scientific testing over the listening experience while many choose to trust their listening experience instead.
They were both personal listening experiences. Only difference was, one relied on the ears only. -
However, it is known that with digital signals don't require higher end cables. 0s and 1s are and will always be 0s and 1s as long as they can go throught the cables (maybe the reason in this case you didn't see subtle differencesDarqueKnight wrote: »I use the Monoprice HDMI 1.3 cables in my home theater rig. I still have yet to see a performance difference in HDMI cables in my home theater system. Here is a link to an HDMI cable comparison I did a couple months ago: Tweaking Home Theater Pt. 4.
However, I don't doubt that other people, with other eyes, other televisions, other DVD and Blu-ray players, and other associated electronics and speakers DO see and hear a difference.
I am a cable cultist.). However, you are still right some people will arguee to death that there is (Mon$$ter as an example).
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
But again, many will disagree with you or I! Who's right or wrong, can you honestly say? Do you or I have enough expertise or evidence to determine we are right? If so, this debate would have been long closedWith the differences that people describe when listening to cables, it would be easy to settle this.
They were both personal listening experiences. Only difference was, one relied on the ears only.
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I use the Monoprice HDMI 1.3 cables in my home theater rig. I still have yet to see a performance difference in HDMI cables in my home theater system. Here is a link to an HDMI cable comparison I did a couple months ago: Tweaking Home Theater Pt. 4.
However, I don't doubt that other people, with other eyes, other televisions, other DVD and Blu-ray players, and other associated electronics and speakers DO see and hear a difference.
I am a cable cultist.
Sorry to be off the subject. Since you have the BDP09, please tell me about its analog performance. I have the BDP95/bdp51/ 58 and I am quite happy with their 2 channel analog ouput. Love to upgrade to the 09 but the price bracket is way above my head. -
Very well said!Actually, you got that backwards, to some extent. Emotiva fanboys want everyone to admit several things that not everyone is prepared to accept as truth:
1) Emotiva is better than ALL expensive equipment. Those who have owned expensive equipment and are prepared to buy Emotiva and love it are invited to join the Emotiva Lounge immediately and proclaim said discovery ASAP. Just admit it: expensive equipment cannot ever sound better than Emotiva.
2) Emotiva is great. If you don't like it, you're wrong. There is no possible way you could have listened objectively and not thought it was great too.
3) Specifications are everything! They are the truth, they are the path, they are the light, they will lead you to salvation and eternal redemption! Emotiva plays the specs. game the same way receiver manufacturers have been doing for years, only they're better at it.
4) Emotiva's "free trial" is awesome, nobody has a better buying experience! Actually, it costs more than an bricks & mortar store's free trial (you don't have to pay to bring it back to a store). All Internet Direct sales models include a "free trial, just pay shipping" clause, including my own sales in the Club Polk Flea Market (no, really ... I keed U not!). They are not being "awesome" or "fantastic", they are doing what it takes to business via the internet. In fact, here's a company that many will know that really puts its money where it's mouth (mouse) is:
http://www.polkaudio.com/whypolk.phpDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Actually, you got that backwards, to some extent. Emotiva fanboys want everyone to admit several things that not everyone is prepared to accept as truth:
1) Emotiva is better than ALL expensive equipment. Those who have owned expensive equipment and are prepared to buy Emotiva and love it are invited to join the Emotiva Lounge immediately and proclaim said discovery ASAP. Just admit it: expensive equipment cannot ever sound better than Emotiva.
2) Emotiva is great. If you don't like it, you're wrong. There is no possible way you could have listened objectively and not thought it was great too.
3) Specifications are everything! They are the truth, they are the path, they are the light, they will lead you to salvation and eternal redemption! Emotiva plays the specs. game the same way receiver manufacturers have been doing for years, only they're better at it.
4) Emotiva's "free trial" costs more than an bricks & mortar store's free trial (you don't have to pay to bring it back to a store). All Internet Direct sales models include a "free trial, just pay shipping" clause, including my own sales in the Club Polk Flea Market (no, really ... I keed U not!). They are not being "awesome" or "fantastic", they are doing what it takes to business via the internet. In fact, here's a company that many will know that really puts its money where it's mouth (mouse) is:
http://www.polkaudio.com/whypolk.php
With these free trial equipments, what will these manufactures do with them once they get the merch back ? Re-box and sell them to the next unfortunate customer(s) as new, perharps . I certainly do not want that piece. -
However, it is known that with digital signals don't require higher end cables. 0s and 1s are and will always be 0s and 1s as long as they can go throught the cables (maybe the reason in this case you didn't see subtle differences). However, you are still right some people will arguee to death that there is (Mon$$ter as an example).
Cheers!
TK
I have never heard or seen a difference between any type of digital (coax, HDMI) or optical cable. I do think that cable quality might help if the jitter reduction of a digital component is marginal or poor and if data stream errors and pulse shape irregularities are aggravated by impurities and noise in a metal conductor digital cable or a glass or plastic conductor optical cable.anhchungdoan wrote: »Sorry to be off the subject. Since you have the BDP09, please tell me about its analog performance. I have the BDP95/bdp51/ 58 and I am quite happy with their 2 channel analog ouput. Love to upgrade to the 09 but the price bracket is way above my head.
That is discussed in the BDP-09FD thread.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
anhchungdoan wrote: »With these free trial equipments, what will these manufactures do with them once they get the merch back ? Re-box and sell them to the next unfortunate customer(s) as new, perharps . I certainly do not want that piece.
No scrupulous manufacturer or retailer does this. Returned items are labeled as such and are sold as "returns", "B-stock", or "open box" merchandise, usually at a very nice discount.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
How about their ebay storeanhchungdoan wrote: »With these free trial equipments, what will these manufactures do with them once they get the merch back ? Re-box and sell them to the next unfortunate customer(s) as new, perharps . I certainly do not want that piece. Polkies have claimed to be getting so called refurbished gear looking as new, could this be the returned gear? Your questions is however fair, I ask my self the same question and with much more importance whe it comes to matresses... would you buy and sleep in a matress that someone slept in and returned :eek: How do we know this isn't happening? Repackaging is fairly easy for a manufacturer and we would probably not even notice it was ever previously bought and used
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
I used to think the same thing. Then I did an honest blind listening test. Suddenly those "huge" differences disappeared, not just for me, but for all the other participants as well.
For some reason, we could all hear the "huge" differences when we knew which cables were being used, go figure.
I fully appreciate what you are saying, but in staged listening tests, I believe you react differently than when you've been typing away in a forum or contemplating data in a spreadsheet for an hour, and then suddenly exclaim. "Wow, I never heard that tambourine slap in that verse before!"
VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
How about their ebay store Polkies have claimed to be getting so called refurbished gear looking as new, could this be the returned gear? Your questions is however fair, I ask my self the same question and with much more importance whe it comes to matresses... would you buy and sleep in a matress that someone slept in and returned :eek: How do we know this isn't happening? Repackaging is fairly easy for a manufacturer and we would probably not even notice it was ever previously bought and used
Cheers!
TK
I bought the Onkyo 805 @ CC a year or year 1.2 ago, everything looked in tact but the wrapping paper showed signed of re-pack. I took it back and they neither admitted nor refused the fact.
My email of complaint to Onkyo went to a black hole somewhere in the universe of re-packaging. -
Gear is a different subject than cables. I am convinced that most people that do not consider the extra expense on high end cable (not meaning garbage cable) consider that higher end gear is futile. I know I don't, there are different class of amping technology and we all know there is a price tag for this. I personnally don't think that for most the cable debate is the same as gear debate.
Now, debate/beliefs/subtility are totally different than hate. No one that believe that high end cables are futile hate those cables or their users... simply a difference of opinions, simply subtle (in that specific discussion anyway).
However, I find arrogant, disrecpectfull people that jumps in discussions on the merit/evaluation/report/testing/reviews of such high end cables where people like DarqueKnight discuss such merits. If you want to read them, do so but refrain from trashing down their reviews. If you can't bear to even read their reviews, refrain from doing so. Why read some you don't believe in (maybe trying to convince your self?)? This discussion is fair for debating the pros and cons but not the discussions dedicated to the believers, who ever does such is rude and arrogant!
Cheers!
TK
Cheers!
A paradigm shift I reached about a year ago was: Cable IS Gear VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
I'm sorry to say Bob hasn't been following this thread. He hasn't been here since: 05-21-2009 @ 07:23 PM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
-
I'm sorry to say Bob hasn't been following this thread. He hasn't been here since: 05-21-2009 @ 07:23 PM
I'm glad civility has returned and there aren't a lot of Molotov's being tossed around like those good old days VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
SolidSqual wrote: »Eh, Emotiva isn't hated just criticized for marketing hype. I love them, just moved past them.
The marketing hype that I have seen singularly pointed out here is the word 'Reference'. Correct? -
inspiredsports wrote: »I fully appreciate what you are saying, but in staged listening tests, I believe you react differently than when you've been typing away in a forum or contemplating data in a spreadsheet for an hour, and then suddenly exclaim. "Wow, I never heard that tambourine slap in that verse before!"[/QUOTE
I would like for someone to try to listen to the first track of the Heartfelt CD by The Fourplay. Using the Kimber PBJ cables and paying attention to nothing but the sound of the cymbals. Listen to it for a week or so to the same track ( GaLaxia). While doing so, please mentally mark down what part of that track where the cymbals sound really harsh and in your face.
Now, try the same track with the Hero. Again listen to that track for a week or so and paying only attention to how the cymbals sound. Is it kind of little dull not in your face or is it the same as the PBJ?
Trying it for a few years or so then have somebody else switch the cables without let you know which cable pairs will be used. If you cannot differentiate between the PBJ and the Hero, either I am insane or something wrong with the person listening skill.
The same thing can be done with " The Love Scence" by Diana Krall with the piano sound ( either track 3 or 4).
Just my 2 cents. Cheer ! -
Actually, you got that backwards, to some extent. Emotiva fanboys want everyone to admit several things that not everyone is prepared to accept as truth:
1) Emotiva is better than ALL expensive equipment. Those who have owned expensive equipment and are prepared to buy Emotiva and love it are invited to join the Emotiva Lounge immediately and proclaim said discovery ASAP. Just admit it: expensive equipment cannot ever sound better than Emotiva.
My experience is Emo and the other gear I A/B'd sounded close. I would like to get more hands on with some higher end Edge/Pass etc...
I dislike using the word better. Bright and crisp to some may require -1.5db of padding somewhere north of 6Khz for others. I still believe cables can be made to sound 'different'. I think the toughest sell with cables vs more complex equipment is one of measurement.2) Emotiva is great. If you don't like it, you're wrong. There is no possible way you could have listened objectively and not thought it was great too.
You get un-apologetic fan boys of every manufacturer.3) Specifications are everything! They are the truth, they are the path, they are the light, they will lead you to salvation and eternal redemption! Emotiva plays the specs. game the same way receiver manufacturers have been doing for years, only they're better at it.
Specs are a good jumping off point. That is as long as they are measured the same way with all manufacturers. Agreed there has been more game playing in recent history.4) Emotiva's "free trial" is awesome, nobody has a better buying experience! Actually, it costs more than a bricks & mortar store's free trial (you don't have to pay to bring it back to a store). All Internet Direct sales models include a "free trial, just pay shipping" clause, including my own sales in the Club Polk Flea Market (no, really ... I keed U not!).
I can't get Kimber Kable or AQ to send out any thing for a free trial. In fact getting a full 5.1 or 7.1 AQ setup and then returning it with their 20% restock fee would cost MORE than sending something like an amp back!
Shotgun and Signal at least have a trial period. Kudos.
Believe it or not there are people that don't have a high end audio shop near by. It simply isn't feasible for them to go and demo in shop. -
Some people did mange to scare the witss out of him, touch skin isn't for everyoneI'm sorry to say Bob hasn't been following this thread. He hasn't been here since: 05-21-2009 @ 07:23 PM I believe he'd be mighty proud to see where his controversial discussion went
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
This discussion has been closed.