Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

heiney9

Duell, in my experience multi strand "twisted" wire seems to sound better than straight multi-strand wire. The Star Quad I use in the office rig is a great sounding cable for not a lot of money. I made them myself (Canare bulk wire). Sound a lot better (smoother, more dynamic) than regular rip cord or M cable of the same gauge or larger.

I used to have a bunch of links about "twisted pairs" but I can't locate them, a good Google search should yield a lot of info. If I run across anything I'll PM you.

H9

P.s. I can set you up with a retailer that sells Canare Star Quad in bulk for the cheapest I've seen it. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. A very inexpensive way to get your ears on it. If I had something else to run in the office rig I'd let you borrow my homemade set to see if you like.

F1nut

Brock rocks!

inspiredsports

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

. . . still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

The problem with cable construction technology is that it's proprietary, and while the manufacturer's publish detailed white papers, they certainly aren't going to give away the farm.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

I love people who can crap on someone else but can't stand the smell of a ****! lol

Instead of b1tchin' why don't people post usefull info for the community instead of saying "A" is better than "B" because "A" cost X amount $$ and "B" only cost X amount $$? Because really itprove's nothing at all except that you spent more cash on your cable's.

I know how to google thank you Maybe i'm asking these Q's to see what you know? or DON'T know?maybe i don't want to spend 7 day's looking for info that someone could simply mention in a post!

Last time i checked you used the crapper the same way everyone else does

Narrow mindedness will be the end of us all....

inspiredsports wrote:

The problem with cable construction technology is that it's proprietary, and while the manufacturer's publish detailed white papers, they certainly aren't going to give away the farm.

Obviously, but the people who actually know about cable's could mention how/why certain style's/method's work better

LessisNevermore

heiney9 wrote: »

Duell, in my experience multi strand "twisted" wire seems to sound better than straight multi-strand wire. The Star Quad I use in the office rig is a great sounding cable for not a lot of money. I made them myself (Canare bulk wire). Sound a lot better (smoother, more dynamic) than regular rip cord or M cable of the same gauge or larger.

I used to have a bunch of links about "twisted pairs" but I can't locate them, a good Google search should yield a lot of info. If I run across anything I'll PM you.

H9

P.s. I can set you up with a retailer that sells Canare Star Quad in bulk for the cheapest I've seen it. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. A very inexpensive way to get your ears on it. If I had something else to run in the office rig I'd let you borrow my homemade set to see if you like.

I appreciate it Brock, and I'm sure I'll try it in the future. The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:p:D

heiney9

LessisNevermore wrote: »

I appreciate it Brock, and I'm sure I'll try it in the future. The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:D

Because I'm am elitist hi-fi snob and I say so!! .

So mums the word on the GDA700 you bought from my brother as well as the Dared Mp5. I've been waiting to hear a little feedback.

In general having the conductors overlapping at close to a 90 degree angle from one another cancels out EMF/RFI. Seriously, I did a lot of reading a few years ago and I just don't have the info at my finger tips, but it's out there if you have some time to do some digging.

H9

heiney9

Duell,

Google "Litz" and that should give you plenty to ponder.

Here's the Wiki to get you started. This is the principle behind Canare's Stad Quad and other "twisted" type winding patterns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire

LessisNevermore

heiney9 wrote: »

So mums the word on the GDA700 you bought from my brother as well as the Dared Mp5. I've been waiting to hear a little feedback.

Sorry 'bout that, only been off work for about a week and a half now, and been ripping cd's, more than listening.:o

The dac is good, haven't done much critical yet.

The Dared....jury's still out, until I get some speakers to drive with it. I'm not about to hook it up to the LSi9's.:D Thinking seriously about adding a set of outputs.....

F1nut

sTiLlLeArNiNg,

You are missing a very important point. Just because a cable is constructed one way or the other does not mean it will sound the best in every system. What works well with one system may not work well in another. The only way to know for sure is to try the cable in your system. Synergy is key and trumps everything else, including price.

Lesson over.

God bless and enjoy the music.

heiney9

In fact this sums it up pretty well.

What is Litz wire? The word "Litz" is derived from the German word "Litzendraht" meaning woven wire. It refers to wire consisting of a number of individually insulated magnet wires twisted or braided into a uniform pattern, so that each strand tends to take all possible positions in the cross-section of the entire conductor.

This multi-strand configuration or Litz construction is designed to minimize the power losses exhibited in solid conductors due to "skin effect". Skin effect refers to the tendency of current flow in a conductor to be confined to a layer in the conductor close to its outer surface. At low frequencies, skin effect is negligible, and current is distributed uniformly across the conductor. However, as the frequency increases, the depth to which the flow can penetrate is reduced. Litz wire constructions counteract this effect by increasing the amount of surface area without significantly increasing the size of the conductor.

Even properly constructed Litz wires will exhibit some skin effect due to the limitations of stranding. Wires intended for higher frequency ranges require more strands of a finer gauge size than Litz wires of equal cross-sectional area but composed of fewer and larger strands.

Proximity effect is the tendency for current to flow in loops or concentrated distributions due to the presence of magnetic fields generated by nearby conductors. In transformers and inductors, proximity effect losses are generally more significant than skin effect losses. In Litz wire windings, proximity effect may be sub-divided into internal proximity effect (the effect of other currents within the bundle) and outer proximity effect ( the effect of the current in other bundles). The reason for twisting or weaving Litz wire, rather than just grouping fine conductors together, is to ensure that the strand currents are equal. Simple twisted bunched conductor wire can accomplish this adequately where proximity effect would be the only significant problem with solid wire. Where skin effect would also be a problem, more complex Litz wire constructions can be used to ensure equal strand currents. Therefore, in a well-designed construction, strand currents are nearly equal.

H9

P.s. I was going to PM you this so numb nuts StILLeArNiNG would have to do his own research, but I'm not THAT vindictive. I'm sure he'll find some way to argue about it though :rolleyes:

vc69

LessisNevermore wrote: »

The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:p:D

As so many have stated, it may or may not. To me the differences in cables vary from subtle to striking. To me it's a question of economics. I have some average price transparent cables that I can't tell from good cheap no-names. I also have some extremely expensive Cardas cables that I find to be amazing. I had no idea what they cost when I listened to them and decided they were the ones I "had to have". Turns out I could never afford them (over $1k IC's, ridiculous). But I definitely like them better than any other cable I have heard in my system.

I think part of this discussion's never-ending nature is that some people just can't hear those subtle differences. I say good for them.
But the non believers never seem to be able to say to us "good for you" and be done with it.

The subtle differences are not_so_subtle when you are familiar with the system and source material. If I couldn't hear the differences, I wouldn't bother with it. I can.

/.02

sTiLlLeArNiNg

F1nut wrote: »

sTiLlLeArNiNg,

You are missing a very important point. Just because a cable is constructed one way or the other does not mean it will sound the best in every system. What works well with one system may not work well in another. The only way to know for sure is to try the cable in your system. Synergy is key and trumps everything else, including price.

Lesson over.

God bless and enjoy the music.

Actually i never missed that! Clearly you missed that i already understood that lol

@ heiney: My **** aren't numb! I'm scratchin' 'em right now! lol Thank's for the linkage :cool:

Montoya

This argument is ridonkulous!

sTiLlLeArNiNg

Montoya wrote: »

This argument is ridonkulous!

This is not an argument but rather a passionate discusion

LessisNevermore

Montoya wrote: »

This argument is ridonkulous!

I really don't think anyone is actually arguing here. (at the moment);)

LessisNevermore

vc69 wrote: »

As so many have stated, it may or may not. To me the differences in cables vary from subtle to striking. To me it's a question of economics. I have some average price transparent cables that I can't tell from good cheap no-names. I also have some extremely expensive Cardas cables that I find to be amazing. I had no idea what they cost when I listened to them and decided they were the ones I "had to have". Turns out I could never afford them (over $1k IC's, ridiculous). But I definitely like them better than any other cable I have heard in my system.

I think part of this discussion's never-ending nature is that some people just can't hear those subtle differences. I say good for them.
But the non believers never seem to be able to say to us "good for you" and be done with it.

The subtle differences are not_so_subtle when you are familiar with the system and source material. If I couldn't hear the differences, I wouldn't bother with it. I can.

/.02

Ok, let me try this another way.....but you're correct. The manufacturers want to keep their recipes a secret.

Guitar strings are available in different winds, with different materials, some are cryogenically treated, etc., etc., yada.

The traits each of them have, are known, and can aid in the selection process. There are other variables that come into play, like what kind of wood the guitar is made from, pickups, amps, etc. Variables similar to what we find in our audio gear.

No, you don't know exactly how they'll sound with your gear until you try them, but if you already have bright sounding gear, you probably don't want to add silver wires everywhere.....it would just be easier, to have an idea of a particular cable's traits ahead of time, because I'd rather spend time listening to music, than listening to wires.

F1nut

Actually i never missed that! Clearly you missed that i already understood that lol

Yeah, I guess I did as I was under the impression you knew nothing.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

F1nut wrote: »

Yeah, I guess I did as I was under the impression you knew nothing.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ROTFLMFAO

Assumption is the mother of all fak-up's don't ya know?

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

F1nut

There is a difference between an impression and an assumption. An assumption would indicate a guess based on little to no facts. An impression is based on facts and since you said you didn't know jack, my impression that you don't know jack remains accurate. However, your assumption is clearly without merit.

kawizx9r

Geez, I just went back and read some of those posts.

I'd just like to say one word to the one that thinks he's learning around here, hypocrite.

To the rest on here that have helped me out along the way to make my setup sound better than it used to, thank you.

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the music. :cool:

vc69

LessisNevermore wrote: »

Ok, let me try this another way.....but you're correct. The manufacturers want to keep their recipes a secret.

.....it would just be easier, to have an idea of a particular cable's traits ahead of time, because I'd rather spend time listening to music, than listening to wires.

I agree 100%.

Some manufacturers are more forthcoming than others. I am leery of any that are unwilling to disclose things like materials used and so on. That said, each cable company seems to have different ideas about interleave and twist, number of conductors, dielectric components, etc.
I don't really care about any of that crap. If it sounds better to me, I'd like to understand why.
Fact is, I don't have a background in physics so it escapes me. What doesn't is the result. Certain cables make my system sound a little better to me. That I know for sure.

I'm not sure there is any way to quantify this. I think that it's different for different systems. The cables I like in my setup may not be the ones you would like in yours and so on.

Guitar strings are much the same. I may like Dean Markley on my Tele and Silk on Steele Martins on my Takamine. You could have exactly the same instruments and think I was crazy. Some may be able to tell the difference in the way they sound, some may not. We could though, because we know our instruments. String players prefer certain rosins and such. I might not be able to tell a difference, but because they are intimately familiar with their instruments, they definitely can and who would I be to question their choices?

I actually think the string analogy is a good one. It's just that differences in speaker wire and in particular IC cables is quite a bit more subtle and dependent on synergy with the other components. Also, and quite unfortunately for me, the expensive ones seem to give the most pleasing results. The Cardas cables I am currently using are quite striking. I would challenge anybody NOT to hear a difference.
Not worth the over $2k retail price to me. But definitely the best I have ever heard.

In the end, it is the music that matters, but I do so love to hear it reproduced well.:)

vc69

vc69 wrote: »

Not worth the over $2k retail price to me. But definitely the best I have ever heard.

I should point out for posterity that I have two pair in play, a 2m set of Gold Standards and a set of prototype's that a friend loaned me. They are both amazing but the prototype set is just stunning between my amp and preamp. They are probably worth more than the gear they are connected to.

everpress

There is a hi-fi shop somewhat close to me that I've found on the interbuttz; before I hit just one, I'd like to see if I can hit more than one all at once. I want to audition some cable and make comparison. I can't tell **** with numbers anyway and from what I keep reading, while there could be numbers to back claims, it keeps coming to preference.

So I'll look for a bang-to-buck ratio.

I think someone posted two brands of cables in one post on here... Could've been oine of the George's or F1nut... One of them was Bluejean Cables but I can't remember the other... Both seemed reasonable in price (to me, not my wife!).

So, two prong request: 1) if anyone knows of any other hi-fi shops in the Cincinnati area, please fess up. Maybe we can make a day of comparing cable? 2)I don't remember what page the reasonably priced cable was... but if anyone as any other ideas for pure budget band-for-your-buck cabling, I'd like to look at it. I realize that 'budget' for some of you rich mo-fo's means something different than it does for some of us...

concealer404

everpress wrote: »

There is a hi-fi shop somewhat close to me that I've found on the interbuttz; before I hit just one, I'd like to see if I can hit more than one all at once. I want to audition some cable and make comparison. I can't tell **** with numbers anyway and from what I keep reading, while there could be numbers to back claims, it keeps coming to preference.

So I'll look for a bang-to-buck ratio.

I think someone posted two brands of cables in one post on here... Could've been oine of the George's or F1nut... One of them was Bluejean Cables but I can't remember the other... Both seemed reasonable in price (to me, not my wife!).

So, two prong request: 1) if anyone knows of any other hi-fi shops in the Cincinnati area, please fess up. Maybe we can make a day of comparing cable? 2)I don't remember what page the reasonably priced cable was... but if anyone as any other ideas for pure budget band-for-your-buck cabling, I'd like to look at it. I realize that 'budget' for some of you rich mo-fo's means something different than it does for some of us...

Blue Jeans, Monoprice.

I run Audioquest Sidewinders. They're very reasonable in price for what you get. I love them. They pop up from time to time here for VERY cheap. I have 4 pairs of them, i can usually get my local shop to give them to me for $40 a 1m pair if i buy more than one pair at a time.

jinjuku

Kex wrote: »

You totally missed the point I was making. You drew a comparison earlier to people criticizing expensive gear, just because it was expensive, with those that criticize Emotiva's "affordable" gear, just because it's Emotiva and not an expensive, established brand such as X, Y, or Z.

If one listens to Emotiva gear, and finds it lacking, and then reports one's findings on an internet forum such as C.P., one is not bashing Emotiva. The person reporting did not like it, when compared to other equipment within that person's experience, and it's as simple as that. Many Emotiva owners (and they seem to be large majority) have difficulty in taking negative evaluations at face value. In their opinion, the person reporting must have some axe to grind, or some other reason that explains this ridiculous (perceived) hatred for Emotiva.

I don't know if its that. What my perception at PF has been is more blanket recommendations of get a 'real' amp (used if you have to). Usually involving Adcom/Rotel/Parasound/B&K etc... Instead of more sage advice of try it out and use your ears.

There is another thread here that goes to proving my point.

bikezappa

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I do love them. I really do.

I did not see in this case, and never have seen, an example of a cable enthusiast insulting or mocking someone only because they chose not to use a higher performance power cord.

You have mocked me and many others for not buying into your fuse testing.

everpress

concealer404 wrote: »

Blue Jeans, Monoprice.

I run Audioquest Sidewinders. They're very reasonable in price for what you get. I love them. They pop up from time to time here for VERY cheap. I have 4 pairs of them, i can usually get my local shop to give them to me for $40 a 1m pair if i buy more than one pair at a time.

Thanks- I'm looking at Monoprice now. Their 12 gage loudspeaker cabling is super cheap. I might order a couple hundred feet for these prices... Seriously.

I went to Audioquest's site... Jeebus, you are getting a good deal for your cables... But that's way too rich for my blood right now.

I think Bluejean's are about as high as I'm able to go, but they are 3 or 4 times as expensive as the monoprice...

hmmmm.....

heiney9

everpress wrote: »

Thanks- I'm looking at Monoprice now. Their 12 gage loudspeaker cabling is super cheap. I might order a couple hundred feet for these prices... Seriously.

I went to Audioquest's site... Jeebus, you are getting a good deal for your cables... But that's way too rich for my blood right now.

I think Bluejean's are about as high as I'm able to go, but they are 3 or 4 times as expensive as the monoprice...

hmmmm.....

Try Canare Star Quad from Performance Audio........you can thank me later. Mucho better than Monoprice cable. I have bought from Performance Audio on 2 occasions and they do a nice job. The 4S8 is a good compromise on price vs. performance.

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/search.cgi?search_for=canare

H9

P.s. This is assuming you are looking for bulk wire to terminate yourself.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

F1nut wrote: »

There is a difference between an impression and an assumption. An assumption would indicate a guess based on little to no facts. An impression is based on facts and since you said you didn't know jack, my impression that you don't know jack remains accurate. However, your assumption is clearly without merit.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Here you go again with the assumption's, insinuation's and implication's! How old are you, 16? Grow up.

I would like to publicly thank those that have helped answer some of the real question's at hand and supplied us with valuable link's to inform ourselve's with I would also like to pass on a couple link's that were forwarded to me for other's to read:

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf < A LOT of great tech info IMHO

http://www.psaudio.com/ps < Haven't really checked it out much but seem's like they cover many area's as well

Happy listening!

EDIT: heiney thank's for the link to performanceaudio! Canare star quad @ $1.19/foot is too good of a deal to pass up!

everpress

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Here you go again with the assumption's, insinuation's and implication's! How old are you, 16? Grow up.

I would like to publicly thank those that have helped answer some of the real question's at hand and supplied us with valuable link's to inform ourselve's with I would also like to pass on a couple link's that were forwarded to me for other's to read:

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf < A LOT of great tech info IMHO

http://www.psaudio.com/ps < Haven't really checked it out much but seem's like they cover many area's as well

Happy listening!