Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

anhchungdoan

Kex wrote: »

Actually, you got that backwards, to some extent. Emotiva fanboys want everyone to admit several things that not everyone is prepared to accept as truth:

1) Emotiva is better than ALL expensive equipment. Those who have owned expensive equipment and are prepared to buy Emotiva and love it are invited to join the Emotiva Lounge immediately and proclaim said discovery ASAP. Just admit it: expensive equipment cannot ever sound better than Emotiva.

2) Emotiva is great. If you don't like it, you're wrong. There is no possible way you could have listened objectively and not thought it was great too.

3) Specifications are everything! They are the truth, they are the path, they are the light, they will lead you to salvation and eternal redemption! Emotiva plays the specs. game the same way receiver manufacturers have been doing for years, only they're better at it.

4) Emotiva's "free trial" costs more than an bricks & mortar store's free trial (you don't have to pay to bring it back to a store). All Internet Direct sales models include a "free trial, just pay shipping" clause, including my own sales in the Club Polk Flea Market (no, really ... I keed U not!). They are not being "awesome" or "fantastic", they are doing what it takes to business via the internet. In fact, here's a company that many will know that really puts its money where it's mouth (mouse) is:

http://www.polkaudio.com/whypolk.php

With these free trial equipments, what will these manufactures do with them once they get the merch back ? Re-box and sell them to the next unfortunate customer(s) as new, perharps . I certainly do not want that piece.

DarqueKnight

TECHNOKID wrote: »

However, it is known that with digital signals don't require higher end cables. 0s and 1s are and will always be 0s and 1s as long as they can go throught the cables (maybe the reason in this case you didn't see subtle differences ). However, you are still right some people will arguee to death that there is (Mon$$ter as an example).

Cheers!
TK

I have never heard or seen a difference between any type of digital (coax, HDMI) or optical cable. I do think that cable quality might help if the jitter reduction of a digital component is marginal or poor and if data stream errors and pulse shape irregularities are aggravated by impurities and noise in a metal conductor digital cable or a glass or plastic conductor optical cable.

anhchungdoan wrote: »

Sorry to be off the subject. Since you have the BDP09, please tell me about its analog performance. I have the BDP95/bdp51/ 58 and I am quite happy with their 2 channel analog ouput. Love to upgrade to the 09 but the price bracket is way above my head.

That is discussed in the BDP-09FD thread.

DarqueKnight

anhchungdoan wrote: »

With these free trial equipments, what will these manufactures do with them once they get the merch back ? Re-box and sell them to the next unfortunate customer(s) as new, perharps . I certainly do not want that piece.

No scrupulous manufacturer or retailer does this. Returned items are labeled as such and are sold as "returns", "B-stock", or "open box" merchandise, usually at a very nice discount.

TECHNOKID

anhchungdoan wrote: »

With these free trial equipments, what will these manufactures do with them once they get the merch back ? Re-box and sell them to the next unfortunate customer(s) as new, perharps . I certainly do not want that piece.

How about their ebay store Polkies have claimed to be getting so called refurbished gear looking as new, could this be the returned gear? Your questions is however fair, I ask my self the same question and with much more importance whe it comes to matresses... would you buy and sleep in a matress that someone slept in and returned :eek: How do we know this isn't happening? Repackaging is fairly easy for a manufacturer and we would probably not even notice it was ever previously bought and used

Cheers!
TK

inspiredsports

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I used to think the same thing. Then I did an honest blind listening test. Suddenly those "huge" differences disappeared, not just for me, but for all the other participants as well.

For some reason, we could all hear the "huge" differences when we knew which cables were being used, go figure.

I fully appreciate what you are saying, but in staged listening tests, I believe you react differently than when you've been typing away in a forum or contemplating data in a spreadsheet for an hour, and then suddenly exclaim. "Wow, I never heard that tambourine slap in that verse before!"

anhchungdoan

TECHNOKID wrote: »

How about their ebay store Polkies have claimed to be getting so called refurbished gear looking as new, could this be the returned gear? Your questions is however fair, I ask my self the same question and with much more importance whe it comes to matresses... would you buy and sleep in a matress that someone slept in and returned :eek: How do we know this isn't happening? Repackaging is fairly easy for a manufacturer and we would probably not even notice it was ever previously bought and used

Cheers!
TK

I bought the Onkyo 805 @ CC a year or year 1.2 ago, everything looked in tact but the wrapping paper showed signed of re-pack. I took it back and they neither admitted nor refused the fact.
My email of complaint to Onkyo went to a black hole somewhere in the universe of re-packaging.

inspiredsports

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Gear is a different subject than cables. I am convinced that most people that do not consider the extra expense on high end cable (not meaning garbage cable) consider that higher end gear is futile. I know I don't, there are different class of amping technology and we all know there is a price tag for this. I personnally don't think that for most the cable debate is the same as gear debate.

Now, debate/beliefs/subtility are totally different than hate. No one that believe that high end cables are futile hate those cables or their users... simply a difference of opinions, simply subtle (in that specific discussion anyway).

However, I find arrogant, disrecpectfull people that jumps in discussions on the merit/evaluation/report/testing/reviews of such high end cables where people like DarqueKnight discuss such merits. If you want to read them, do so but refrain from trashing down their reviews. If you can't bear to even read their reviews, refrain from doing so. Why read some you don't believe in (maybe trying to convince your self? )? This discussion is fair for debating the pros and cons but not the discussions dedicated to the believers, who ever does such is rude and arrogant!

Cheers!
TK

Cheers!

A paradigm shift I reached about a year ago was: Cable IS Gear

Face

I'm sorry to say Bob hasn't been following this thread. He hasn't been here since: 05-21-2009 @ 07:23 PM

inspiredsports

Face wrote: »

I'm sorry to say Bob hasn't been following this thread. He hasn't been here since: 05-21-2009 @ 07:23 PM

I'm glad civility has returned and there aren't a lot of Molotov's being tossed around like those good old days

jinjuku

SolidSqual wrote: »

Eh, Emotiva isn't hated just criticized for marketing hype. I love them, just moved past them.

The marketing hype that I have seen singularly pointed out here is the word 'Reference'. Correct?

anhchungdoan

inspiredsports wrote: »

I fully appreciate what you are saying, but in staged listening tests, I believe you react differently than when you've been typing away in a forum or contemplating data in a spreadsheet for an hour, and then suddenly exclaim. "Wow, I never heard that tambourine slap in that verse before!" [/QUOTE

I would like for someone to try to listen to the first track of the Heartfelt CD by The Fourplay. Using the Kimber PBJ cables and paying attention to nothing but the sound of the cymbals. Listen to it for a week or so to the same track ( GaLaxia). While doing so, please mentally mark down what part of that track where the cymbals sound really harsh and in your face.

Now, try the same track with the Hero. Again listen to that track for a week or so and paying only attention to how the cymbals sound. Is it kind of little dull not in your face or is it the same as the PBJ?

Trying it for a few years or so then have somebody else switch the cables without let you know which cable pairs will be used. If you cannot differentiate between the PBJ and the Hero, either I am insane or something wrong with the person listening skill.

The same thing can be done with " The Love Scence" by Diana Krall with the piano sound ( either track 3 or 4).

Just my 2 cents. Cheer !

jinjuku

Kex wrote: »

Actually, you got that backwards, to some extent. Emotiva fanboys want everyone to admit several things that not everyone is prepared to accept as truth:

1) Emotiva is better than ALL expensive equipment. Those who have owned expensive equipment and are prepared to buy Emotiva and love it are invited to join the Emotiva Lounge immediately and proclaim said discovery ASAP. Just admit it: expensive equipment cannot ever sound better than Emotiva.

My experience is Emo and the other gear I A/B'd sounded close. I would like to get more hands on with some higher end Edge/Pass etc...

I dislike using the word better. Bright and crisp to some may require -1.5db of padding somewhere north of 6Khz for others. I still believe cables can be made to sound 'different'. I think the toughest sell with cables vs more complex equipment is one of measurement.

Kex wrote: »

2) Emotiva is great. If you don't like it, you're wrong. There is no possible way you could have listened objectively and not thought it was great too.

You get un-apologetic fan boys of every manufacturer.

Kex wrote: »

3) Specifications are everything! They are the truth, they are the path, they are the light, they will lead you to salvation and eternal redemption! Emotiva plays the specs. game the same way receiver manufacturers have been doing for years, only they're better at it.

Specs are a good jumping off point. That is as long as they are measured the same way with all manufacturers. Agreed there has been more game playing in recent history.

Kex wrote: »

4) Emotiva's "free trial" is awesome, nobody has a better buying experience! Actually, it costs more than a bricks & mortar store's free trial (you don't have to pay to bring it back to a store). All Internet Direct sales models include a "free trial, just pay shipping" clause, including my own sales in the Club Polk Flea Market (no, really ... I keed U not!).

I can't get Kimber Kable or AQ to send out any thing for a free trial. In fact getting a full 5.1 or 7.1 AQ setup and then returning it with their 20% restock fee would cost MORE than sending something like an amp back!

Shotgun and Signal at least have a trial period. Kudos.

Believe it or not there are people that don't have a high end audio shop near by. It simply isn't feasible for them to go and demo in shop.

Kex

jinjuku wrote: »

My experience is Emo and the other gear I A/B'd sounded close. ...

Believe it or not there are people that don't have a high end audio shop near by. It simply isn't feasible for them to go and demo in shop.

You totally missed the point I was making. You drew a comparison earlier to people criticizing expensive gear, just because it was expensive, with those that criticize Emotiva's "affordable" gear, just because it's Emotiva and not an expensive, established brand such as X, Y, or Z.

If one listens to Emotiva gear, and finds it lacking, and then reports one's findings on an internet forum such as C.P., one is not bashing Emotiva. The person reporting did not like it, when compared to other equipment within that person's experience, and it's as simple as that. Many Emotiva owners (and they seem to be large majority) have difficulty in taking negative evaluations at face value. In their opinion, the person reporting must have some axe to grind, or some other reason that explains this ridiculous (perceived) hatred for Emotiva.

TECHNOKID

Face wrote: »

I'm sorry to say Bob hasn't been following this thread. He hasn't been here since: 05-21-2009 @ 07:23 PM

Some people did mange to scare the witss out of him, touch skin isn't for everyone I believe he'd be mighty proud to see where his controversial discussion went

Cheers!
TK

SolidSqual

jinjuku wrote: »

The marketing hype that I have seen singularly pointed out here is the word 'Reference'. Correct?

Hey, don't pick a fight with me. I think its asinine too. I love Emotiva.

SolidSqual

Kex wrote: »

You totally missed the point I was making. You drew a comparison earlier to people criticizing expensive gear, just because it was expensive, with those that criticize Emotiva's "affordable" gear, just because it's Emotiva and not an expensive, established brand such as X, Y, or Z.

If one listens to Emotiva gear, and finds it lacking, and then reports one's findings on an internet forum such as C.P., one is not bashing Emotiva. The person reporting did not like it, when compared to other equipment within that person's experience, and it's as simple as that. Many Emotiva owners (and they seem to be large majority) have difficulty in taking negative evaluations at face value. In their opinion, the person reporting must have some axe to grind, or some other reason that explains this ridiculous (perceived) hatred for Emotiva.

+1 Love Emotiva, but it's only the beginning of the high end.

TECHNOKID

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm glad civility has returned and there aren't a lot of Molotov's being tossed around like those good old days

The subject title in it self was a good bomb for many, I guess the reason why the discussion started in such a flame and vigor. Poor Bobt was bombarded from everywhere he didn't realize where it was coming from. Never recuperate from it I guess. When the boys feel attacked here, I realised it can get vicious

Boys, don't get "emotivational"

Cheers!
TK

DarqueKnight

inspiredsports wrote: »

I fully appreciate what you are saying, but in staged listening tests, I believe you react differently than when you've been typing away in a forum or contemplating data in a spreadsheet for an hour, and then suddenly exclaim. "Wow, I never heard that tambourine slap in that verse before!"

Of course. How many times have we been able to perfectly recite information in during a class session, but then forget everything we know during a stressful examination?. Would the teacher be justified in saying that the student who funked the exam didn't know a damn thing...even though the student displayed the proper knowledge in class two days prior? I believe that if you are going to test something dealing with sensory perception, the test should be as close as possible to the actual use conditions.

There are so many variables that determine whether a cable will make an audible difference, like, for example, cable break in.

Two cables may have 300 hour break in ratings, but at what current load? This is often not specified. One cable may require 300 hours at 1 amp and the other cable may need 300 hours at only 0.5 amp. If both cables are broken in on a 0.5 amp continuous device, then the 300 amp-hour device will require 600 hours. Comparing both cables at the 300 hour mark would not give accurate results.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

I never once said that i didn't beleive in quality cable's making any noticeble difference, i very much beleive that quality cable's are a necessity! I'm only trying to point out that you can get quality cable's and sound WITHOUT breaking the bank :cool: Why do people misinterpret thing's and put word's in other people's mouth/post?

If you look around the net you can find most, if not all the same cable used to make "high end" cable's and most of it is priced by the foot or meter I would prefer to inform myself on what make's any given cable good or better than another cable and use that info to make an informed purchase and make my own cable's instead of buying them pre-made and paying the extra price for assembly/finish

Being on disability i don't have the disposable income that some have but i do like to have the best that i can afford That's why i was asking about the stranding earlier in post 2013 + 2015....

Below are a few link's that i think carry some pretty good stuff (from what i can tell) in bulk so that you/i/we can make your/our/his own cable's and use the cash saved for some bluray's, vinyl, beer, hooker's, whatever! lol

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/default.asp
http://www.thecableco.com/index.php
http://www.vhaudio.com/
http://www.markertek.com/index.asp

So again can someone please clarify for us the reason behind the different stranding practice's used? I know that basically it is for "skimming" but i would like to know more

Maybe i asked in the wrong place

heiney9

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I never once said that i didn't beleive in quality cable's making any noticeble difference, i very much beleive that quality cable's are a necessity! I'm only trying to point out that you can get quality cable's and sound WITHOUT breaking the bank :cool: Why do people misinterpret thing's and put word's in other people's mouth/post?

If you look around the net you can find most, if not all the same cable used to make "high end" cable's and most of it is priced by the foot or meter I would prefer to inform myself on what make's any given cable good or better than another cable and use that info to make an informed purchase and make my own cable's instead of buying them pre-made and paying the extra price for assembly/finish

Being on disability i don't have the disposable income that some have but i do like to have the best that i can afford That's why i was asking about the stranding earlier in post 2013 + 2015....

Below are a few link's that i think carry some pretty good stuff (from what i can tell) in bulk so that you/i/we can make your/our/his own cable's and use the cash saved for some bluray's, vinyl, beer, hooker's, whatever! lol

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/default.asp
http://www.thecableco.com/index.php
http://www.vhaudio.com/
http://www.markertek.com/index.asp

So again can someone please clarify for us the reason behind the different stranding practice's used? I know that basically it is for "skimming" but i would like to know more

Maybe i asked in the wrong place

It's a sliding scale........your quality sound is not my quality of sound. It's a subjective opinion and while what you are saying has truth........the truth is for you and you're situation. I can guarantee what you find as acceptable quality is much different than what I find acceptable.

A Camry is a nice quality car.............but it's not a BMW or Porsche. Do you use the same logic against people who prefer a Porsche over a Camry?

I don;t think you do.

H9

heiney9

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Below are a few link's that i think carry some pretty good stuff (from what i can tell) in bulk so that you/i/we can make your/our/his own cable's and use the cash saved for some bluray's, vinyl, beer, hooker's, whatever! lol

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/default.asp
http://www.thecableco.com/index.php
http://www.vhaudio.com/
http://www.markertek.com/index.asp

So again can someone please clarify for us the reason behind the different stranding practice's used? I know that basically it is for "skimming" but i would like to know more

Maybe i asked in the wrong place

You'll also find by the time you buy all the materials and tools to build your own you'll be at the same cost or more. If you're going to use Techflex you really need a hot knife to do it properly. For the shrink tube a hot air gun works better and look better than anything. Inexpensive units combined will run you about $50, not to mention a good quality wire snipper.

I have made my own, without the above and they won't win any beauty contests. Here's a link............you can't make these cables cheaper. I'd suggest these and be done with it.

http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=61

Nicely terminated and sheathed Star Quad type wire

H9

sTiLlLeArNiNg

heiney9 wrote: »

It's a sliding scale........your quality sound is not my quality of sound. It's a subjective opinion and while what you are saying has truth........the truth is for you and you're situation. I can guarantee what you find as acceptable quality is much different than what I find acceptable.

A Camry is a nice quality car.............but it's not a BMW or Porsche. Do you use the same logic against people who prefer a Porsche over a Camry?

I don;t think you do.

H9

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

I bet you i could make a complete set of speaker, power and IC cable's for the cost of what you paid for a couple cable's and you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between them Mine may even sound better! lol

Can someone with an open mind and some actual knowledge of cable's please explain a little bit about how the different type's of stranding method's and "gauge blending" affect the sound charecteristic's?

Thank You

EDIT: Just so you know "heiney", which by the way is a perfect screen name for you! I have all the necessary tool's to make cable's i just need the part's and a clean workspace

treitz3

Some of you crack me up. You don't "believe" that a cable may change whatever you think it changes. They either do or they don't.

My ears tell me that they can make a horrible to considerably pleasing change in many aspects of reproduction. That's a fact I don't need to believe in. Now, if you can't hear any type of change whatsoever? Consider yourself lucky and shut the hell up about "not believing".

You are no longer in the 1st grade, you know about Santa and the tooth fairy by now. Those were things you used to "believe" in. Cables either do or they don't, period.

F1nut

inspiredsports wrote: »

A paradigm shift I reached about a year ago was: Cable IS Gear

Yes sir folks, we have a winner!

inspiredsports

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I bet you i could make a complete set of speaker, power and IC cable's for the cost of what you paid for a couple cable's and you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between them Mine may even sound better! lol.

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Can someone with an open mind and some actual knowledge of cable's please explain a little bit about how the different type's of stranding method's and "gauge blending" affect the sound charecteristic's?

Thank You

Simply answered; No.

It's that old Einstein quote we keep citing, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be measured "

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

EDIT: Just so you know "heiney", which by the way is a perfect screen name for you! I have all the necessary tool's to make cable's i just need the part's and a clean workspace

Hmmm . . . I've found H9 to be a pretty stand up guy around here.

As far as making cables. Been there, done that. Nothing comes close to a high-line cable, and if you count your time (even at your hourly wage), you'll end up even farther behind.

######################

Some day your perspective may change if you really are "Still Learning" (but you'll have to find a way to audition the cables that you stated you can't afford).

sTiLlLeArNiNg

Who p1ssed in your cornflake's treitz? lol

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

@ inspiredsports: i'm just razzing him the same way he's razzing me

heiney9

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Why do people misinterpret thing's and put word's in other people's mouth/post?

You wrote the above and now are DOING EXACTLY the same thing. You totally missed my point...............right over your head. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm done with trying to help you. You are pretty damn dense.

H9

P.s. you can take your emoticons and shove 'em up your arse!

Kex

heiney9 wrote: »

You wrote the above and now are DOING EXACTLY the same thing. You totally missed my point...............right over your head. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm done with trying to help you. You are pretty damn dense.

H9

sTiLlLeArNiNg, I hope that you are drunk or something. H9 was trying to help you IMO, and offer suggestions that might give you food for thought. You turned around and insulted him, so if you weren't drunk, you were very rude without an excuse. Your not LeArNiNg very fast at this pace IMO. Cool down and don't drink and post!

heiney9

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Who p1ssed in your cornflake's treitz? lol

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

@ inspiredsports: i'm just razzing him the same way he's razzing me

Google it.......if you know how.

I'm not razzing you.........I'm giving you my POV, in general you have been asking people to do so. Sorry you don;t like the answers or can;t handle the answers.

H9

LessisNevermore

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

This subject interests me as well. It would be useful in determining (roughly) a cable's characteristics before purchase. Obviously, it wouldn't tell the whole story, but would be a good starting point.....

DK, any insight here?