Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

sucks2beme

SCompRacer wrote: »

There are some amps that react unfavorably with high capacitance cables and low impedance speakers. Some amp manufacturers actually publish a maximum capacitance per foot figure for cables in their manuals. Some manufacturers will tell you or name cables you should not use.

I've read responses from proponents of Cat5 speaker cable telling folks with amp oscillation problems to add Zobel networks or use shorter cables. Knowing that, Cat5, or any other high capacitance cable, is not the ultimate answer for everyone.

And that's a good answer. There's a lot of pricey cables out there. And a lot of
claims that lamp cord is the ultimate. Reality runs in the middle.
The real question is, what sounds best in your system?
Homemade cables from cat 5 might be the answer. Or it might sound like
crap with your stuff.
Rule 1-Do you hear differences at all by changing cable? If not, move on.
If you do, go to next rule.

Rule 2-Do your homework. Ask a lot of questions. Expect a lot of conflicting
answers. They range from "clear but incorrect reasoning" , trial and
error, to " I like them because they sound good with my system".

Rule 3-Go with your budget. $1000 cables may be a poor place to put your
money. A $100 Monster may just make you angry and join the
"cables don't matter " club. There are good budget choices
in reasonable price ranges. They all have been talked about here.

Rule 4-If you find a set that makes you happy, good. Tell others if solicited.
But the rest of the world may not like them. That's ok. Your dog
is ugly , too. Don't post his picture here, either.

Rule 5-General "cable" debates are always ugly. That's why several other
forums have prohibited them. Don't think club Polk members are
the only ones to turn nasty. The old memebers here are trying to kill
off the thread by being crude. They are capable enough to argue the
point, but already know nobody's listening. I'm just filling in time
until this damn conference I'm stuck on is over!

seafire

Use mainly German and scandinavian designs and drivers.Most of my hi end stuff I get from a German company VISATON...caps from Mundorf;)

seafire

Dont worry I am all out

ben62670

I have yet to try Mundorf caps. I spent too much money on my wires:p. I use mainly SonicCaps for highs, and Dayton's for shunts. For the last 2 years or so I have been running active with some minor tweaks to flatten some naughty curves. Oh yeah Caps don't make a difference:eek: Any links to you work?

Edit: Train wreak status. 5000 views:(

seafire

ben62670 wrote: »

I have yet to try Mundorf caps. I spent too much money on my wires:p. I use mainly SonicCaps for highs, and Dayton's for shunts. For the last 2 years or so I have been running active with some minor tweaks to flatten some naughty curves. Oh yeah Caps don't make a difference:eek: Any links to you work?

Edit: Train wreak status. 5000 views:(

Unfortunately Gov based so classified.Tell me your active crossovers are they in the digital domain or analogue?

BlueFox

One point that is being overlooked in the Cat5 discussion is that Cat5 cable is designed to allow a specific amount of signal degradation, distortion, attenuation, etc. This distortion is perfectly acceptable in the transmission of digital data.

Let me try to explain what is occurring when digital data is transmitted. Leaving aside encoding methods, the transmitting device will generate a digital signal to be sent on the wire. For example, let’s say 10101010101010 is being transmitted. The transmitter will turn on, and the signal will go to +5v, and stay at that level for some period. Then the transmitter will turn off, and the signal will drop to 0v for some period. This will repeat until the data has been transmitted.

If you look at the transmitted signal with an Oscope the transmitted signal will appear to be a well formed square wave. However, the signal received at the other end of the Cat5 cable will not look at all like a well formed square wave. It will be greatly distorted. Rather than switching between 5v and 0v, it might now reach 2v. Rather than being a square wave, it will look like a distorted sine wave.

And this is perfectly fine as long as the distortion is within the Cat5 design specifications. Because of this specification, the receiving equipment is able to reconstruct the original data from the received distorted data. In data transmission, both the transmitter and receiver are active components.

This is the point that is being overlooked in trying to use Cat5 cable as speaker cable. Cat5 distorts the signal, but the distortion is defined to be within certain parameters, which allows the receiver to reconstruct the original data from the received distorted data.

However, in the audio world, only the amplifier is active, and the speaker is passive. This means the speaker will play whatever signal is fed into it. The resulting sound will depend on the amount of distortion the cable has introduced into the original signal. In my mind, this is how different speaker cables can sound different. Some might introduce minimal distortion. The signal at the speaker is almost the same as the signal leaving the amp. Other cables might introduce more distortion, but the distortion is of a nature that the sound appears “better” to the listener. Still others will just suck in how they sound.

It appears to me that there is probably a particular cable type that will work optimally with every system, and that cable can only be found by trial and error experimentation. It all depends on the electronics, speakers, and cable length.

AudioGenics

Every System is a combination of its unique components with the listener as a primary one.

ben62670

Active 24db LR slopes. I have been studying digital XO's that use a PC and sound card for testing purposes. I have a decent sound card with sockets for the OpAmps and 8+8- rails so I can change them out when I want. I just put some BB/TI OPA2134's in there for now. All I am driving is some small planners with the PC. Post some links later of your work. I love DIY.
Ben

Kex

I'm worried about you Dude. I'm wondering if you use a similar argumentative know-it-all approach when dating, 'coz I bet that ain't workin' out too good (Imagined scenario: No! Don't put all your clothes back on and leave! I'm telling you that it has been scientifically proven that size doesn't matter!). Maybe that might also explain all this pent up stress your are exhibiting in your posts (all those pent up spermatazoids can't be a good thing - maybe they eventually back up all the way to one's brain).

Anyhooo ... best of luck Farty! Sorry to be rude, but you did barge in here with a lot of loud noises and I'm just bored, like Ben, even if it is not raining here.

P.S. Oops! Sorry for the intrusion: it looks like the thread was actually about to get serious!

seafire

ben62670 wrote: »

Active 24db LR slopes. I have been studying digital XO's that use a PC and sound card for testing purposes. I have a decent sound card with sockets for the OpAmps and 8+8- rails so I can change them out when I want. I just put some BB/TI OPA2134's in there for now. All I am driving is some small planners with the PC. Post some links later of your work. I love DIY.
Ben

I ran self modded jobs Originally from the Alpine car audio range they are pra h400 digital proccessors that one of my friends(electronic engineer) upgraded for me in terms of s/n ratio channel seperation etc.They were pretty good out the box 100 db sn.They are three way crossovers with variable slopes 6-24 dbs featuring 3 pairs of burr brown 18 bit dacs (one per channel).Sounded amazing but somehow to clinical if you know what I mean.Interesting part was time alignment and phase shift correction in the end they helped me dial in some of my best passive x overs;) .

zombie boy 2000

This thread makes me want to eat a live koala baby. With a spork.

seafire

BlueFox wrote: »

One point that is being overlooked in the Cat5 discussion is that Cat5 cable is designed to allow a specific amount of signal degradation, distortion, attenuation, etc. This distortion is perfectly acceptable in the transmission of digital data.

Let me try to explain what is occurring when digital data is transmitted. Leaving aside encoding methods, the transmitting device will generate a digital signal to be sent on the wire. For example, let’s say 10101010101010 is being transmitted. The transmitter will turn on, and the signal will go to +5v, and stay at that level for some period. Then the transmitter will turn off, and the signal will drop to 0v for some period. This will repeat until the data has been transmitted.

If you look at the transmitted signal with an Oscope the transmitted signal will appear to be a well formed square wave. However, the signal received at the other end of the Cat5 cable will not look at all like a well formed square wave. It will be greatly distorted. Rather than switching between 5v and 0v, it might now reach 2v. Rather than being a square wave, it will look like a distorted sine wave.

And this is perfectly fine as long as the distortion is within the Cat5 design specifications. Because of this specification, the receiving equipment is able to reconstruct the original data from the received distorted data. In data transmission, both the transmitter and receiver are active components.

This is the point that is being overlooked in trying to use Cat5 cable as speaker cable. Cat5 distorts the signal, but the distortion is defined to be within certain parameters, which allows the receiver to reconstruct the original data from the received distorted data.

However, in the audio world, only the amplifier is active, and the speaker is passive. This means the speaker will play whatever signal is fed into it. The resulting sound will depend on the amount of distortion the cable has introduced into the original signal. In my mind, this is how different speaker cables can sound different. Some might introduce minimal distortion. The signal at the speaker is almost the same as the signal leaving the amp. Other cables might introduce more distortion, but the distortion is of a nature that the sound appears “better” to the listener. Still others will just suck in how they sound.

It appears to me that there is probably a particular cable type that will work optimally with every system, and that cable can only be found by trial and error experimentation. It all depends on the electronics, speakers, and cable length.

Ok interesting read but we found virtually no distortion on the 3 m lengths we tested with a occilo .I think this becomes prominent on long cable lengths sorry edit: but then again we did not find any on most short lengths of cable only with extremely thin cable and hi volume output sorry edit again I tend to agree with the last part of your statement...wow eventually some good clean debate :):)

ben62670

zombie boy 2000 wrote: »

This thread makes me want to eat a live koala baby. With a spork.

Had one the other night. Then I ate it.

heiney9

seafire wrote: »

Ok interesting read but we found virtually no distortion on the 3 m lengths we tested with a occilo .I think this becomes prominent on long cable lengths sorry edit: but then again we did not find any on most short lengths of cable only with extremely thin cable and hi volume output sorry edit again I tend to agree with the last part of your statement...wow eventually some good clean debate :):)

And we're just supposed to take your word for it...............because your Seabiscuit!!!!

seafire

heiney9 wrote: »

And we're just supposed to take your word for it...............because your Seabiscuit!!!!

Hmm well its not that hard to setup youself if you have access to a scope try it you may like it;)

AudioGenics

seafire... your post has been "Mega" (actually Kilo) Viewed ! Over 5K

heiney9

Just read my sig..............thats what I truly believe. Not that measurements aren't a tool to be used, but in the end it's mostly subjective. I'm off to listen to music and enjoy the system I have so carefully put together for my own enjoyment....no one else's.

heiney9

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

seafire... your post has been "Mega" (actually Kilo) Viewed ! Over 5K

Hey buddy this isn't his thread.............he didn't enter until a couple pages ago (give or take)

seafire

heiney9 wrote: »

Just read my sig..............thats what I truly believe. Not that measurements aren't a tool to be used, but in the end it's mostly subjective. I'm off to listen to music and enjoy the system I have so carefully put together for my own enjoyment....no one else's.

Good enjoy I will be too a little later though:mad:

seafire

well Joseph H9 is correct I just hope it evolves into something nice and usefull for us all to share

AudioGenics

heiney9 wrote: »

Hey buddy this isn't his thread.............he didn't enter until a couple pages ago (give or take)

You are So Correct... where is the originator - bobt -

scottnbnj

seafire wrote: »

Not at all upset just hoped to get some clarification on why and some debate on my views trust me I'm not upset just dishing back what's been flung at me;)

i don't know. some believe i have a special gift for detecting when someone's upset, but if you say you weren't...

anyway, it's nice that you seem a bit more at peace now with the fact that others can hear differences in cables too. now, if you can just get past your anxiety over others chosing for themselves which different sound they like best you'll be on a solid path toward full recovery.

)

seafire

scottnbnj wrote: »

i don't know. some believe i have a special gift for detecting when someone's upset, but if you say you weren't...

anyway, it's nice that you seem a bit more at peace now with the fact that others can hear differences in cables too. now, if you can just get past your anxiety over others chosing for themselves which different sound they like best you'll be on a solid path toward full recovery.

)

Ok not to go down this road again but really scroll back through the posts..I never said there is NO difference I merely said that In my opinion the differences are over rated once you reach a certain quality in your speaker cables other things would give much more instant return than speaker cables starting off with the general quality of ones gear;)At peace was always more happy yes- as like others I come here to share and learn other opinions

ben62670

The second one.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1030741&postcount=64

tcrossma

seafire wrote: »

I merely said that In my opinion the differences are over rated once you reach a certain quality in your speaker cables other things would give much more instant return than speaker cables starting off with the general quality of ones gear

I tend to agree with you on this. But let's be honest, that is really not what you started off saying, or at least that's not how it came across to me. I use cables to "fine tune" my system. No one is saying that expensive cables are going to fix a crappy system. Not only that, but many have stated that you do not have to spend a lot of money to get a good cable -- but you tend to gloss over those posts and only concern yourself with the other more controversial posts.

megasat16

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

seafire... your post has been "Mega" (actually Kilo) Viewed ! Over 5K

I failed to see the relationship (numerically) between Mega and 5K viewers.

Perhaps, you meant it's Kilo Viewed?

inspiredsports

seafire wrote: »

Ok not to go down this road again but really scroll back through the posts..I never said there is NO difference I merely said that In my opinion the differences are over rated once you reach a certain quality in your speaker cables other things would give much more instant return than speaker cables starting off with the general quality of ones gear;)At peace was always more happy yes- as like others I come here to share and learn other opinions

Peace bro. Now we've got it. You love Cat 5. It works for you.

Kimber, MIT, others at the top, and lots of mid-stuff works better for many more.

No matter what the price, we like our stuff better than Cat 5.

'Nuf said.

NJPOLKER

Kex wrote: »

I'm worried about you Dude. I'm wondering if you use a similar argumentative know-it-all approach when dating, 'coz I bet that ain't workin' out too good (Imagined scenario: No! Don't put all your clothes back on and leave! I'm telling you that it has been scientifically proven that size doesn't matter!). Maybe that might also explain all this pent up stress your are exhibiting in your posts (all those pent up spermatazoids can't be a good thing - maybe they eventually back up all the way to one's brain).

Anyhooo ... best of luck Farty! Sorry to be rude, but you did barge in here with a lot of loud noises and I'm just bored, like Ben, even if it is not raining here.

P.S. Oops! Sorry for the intrusion: it looks like the thread was actually about to get serious!

Kex
I don't know you but you are cool This had me laughing and I honestly think you are 100% right on target.
Just another thought since I can't keep out of this, this guy is not legit and he makes it obvious. Probably banned from here before, of course under a different name, and is just looking to have fun and contribute nothing.

seafire

NJPOLKER wrote: »

Kex
I don't know you but you are cool This had me laughing and I honestly think you are 100% right on target.
Just another thought since I can't keep out of this, this guy is not legit and he makes it obvious. Probably banned from here before, of course under a different name, and is just looking to have fun and contribute nothing.

Hmm nice try aint gonna sucker me into it luckily opinions are like arseholes we all have one including yourself;)

seafire

inspiredsports wrote: »

Peace bro. Now we've got it. You love Cat 5. It works for you.

Kimber, MIT, others at the top, and lots of mid-stuff works better for many more.

No matter what the price, we like our stuff better than Cat 5.

'Nuf said.

Enjoy brother:D