Speaker cable fable!
Comments
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This is ALL old, rehashed, recycled stuff that rears it's ugly head from noobs to the forum about twice a year.
Twice a year? Seems like twice a month sometimes.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
You will never change the minds of some of these people.
To them, copper is copper and noise is noise. As long as its made from copper (hell even silver) it must all sound the same. As long as a spec sheet says it has .001% distortion, it must be ideal.
How do you change the mind of someone who points to distortion numbers ALL the time, yet he has zero idea how distortion is truly a factor in audio? -
and I'm still waiting for someone who's user name starts with R to acutally try something for once himself than give poor, or useless advice on something he has never done.
Would you cut these idiotic propositions already? I haven't been around the planet myself, yet i am confident it is spherical.
there is one very important moment here that demonstrates why exotic cables are a ripoff. If they perform better than your average copper wire, then something bad must happen to the signal once it enters the copper wire. YES OR NO! Will someone have the balls to answer this?I have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs.jeremymarcinko wrote: »But as in all things your perception is your reality. -
bla bla bla. can you wrap it up? if silver cable is better than copper, that is because the copper cable distorts the signal, and the silver does not? Is that it? What about pure gold cable? is that gona kick the living crap out of silver?
Silver is a better conductor than copper or gold. I would think that since silver is a precious metal better care is taken during the drawing process so not to break or waste. Golds big thing is the lack of corrosion or tarnish. I was always leery of silver just because it tarnish's so easily,like copper where corrosion is a big negative and causes distortion. According to those with much better knowledge than I tarnished silver will conduct the same weather tarnished or not.
there is a thing called crystal boundaries that effects wire during the drawing process. It is believed that these boundaries are the reason that copper can sound different. Companies like Audioquest,Cardas and other high end manufacture's have a special drawing process's(i.e. better care than just stretching wire) that is much different from companies that make wire for utility poles and houses. Some of it you must take with a large dose of salt as it may be marketing hype but I'm sure some of it is for real as i have heard differences with my own ears. -
Would you cut these idiotic propositions already? I haven't been around the planet myself, yet i am confident it is spherical.
there is one very important moment here that demonstrates why exotic cables are a ripoff. If they perform better than your average copper wire, then something bad must happen to the signal once it enters the copper wire. YES OR NO! Will someone have the balls to answer this?
So you're saying that trying something for yourself and forming your own opinion is an idiotic proposition. Instead, you're looking for strangers on the internet to reduce a completely subjective and variant subject down to a yes or no answer for you. Hmmmm...... Who's the idiot?Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
shopdog328 wrote: »If you've ever worked retail there is a reason sales people always push high end cables. The mark up at the store I worked was between 100 to 150%. The upper end of the spectrum having the highest markup.
Yes there is a difference between entry level and high level stuff. But most people don't have the gear or enough hearing left to tell the difference between mid and high level.
My .02 $
only 100/150% markup....Bet that company is no longer in business. A friend worked at Best Buy his discount depended on markup. Wires and other accessories it was as much as 80% discount. For instance Monster cable surge strip sold for 400.00 I bought with his discount 68.00 + tax. Monster interconnects sold for 90.00 I bought for 17.00+tax. Other items with his discount were only 20.00 discount hence very little mark up. -
So you're saying that trying something for yourself and forming your own opinion is an idiotic proposition. Instead, you're looking for strangers on the internet to reduce a completely subjective and variant subject down to a yes or no answer for you. Hmmmm...... Who's the idiot?
exactly why consumer reports does not do any mattress reviews...the reason is that its so subjective what you might think is the cats meow I might think is the dogs bone.
wire is no different in that respect.....you must try for yourself. -
Crazy how cables are the biggest taboo conversation in audio.
Never could understand that.
A close friend of my late mother collects vintage, "collectable" wines, and everything that goes with it.
She has been collecting and researching for over a decade, anything that has to do with "better" wines.
She also collect expensive cork screws.
After the funeral of my mother, and it was just close family members/friends in her home, we decided to do
a toast to my mother.
She picked a wine (IIRC it was about $600 for the bottle).
Everyone drinking it just gushed how good it was.
I swear, I could not tell the difference and actually preferred the cheaper wines I have drank over the
years (I am not a wine drinker, I would be happy with wine in a box).
I was expecting to have that "EUREKA" moment!
It did not happen.
I have tried several "upscale" wines at her house, and just really don't see what the hoopla is all about.
I have had some $30/bottle wine that I thought was really pretty good, and could never justify the cost,
like she does.
Its what she is into, its her hobby.
She likes the best of her hobby like anyone else.
Its a multi-billion dollar business, with hundreds of millions of people into to that hobby.
Wine like that is expensive because that is what someone will pay for them.
To each their own!Testing
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Define "exotic" cables and define "average copper wire"? So you must agree there are different grades of copper both in purity and electron (or grain) make-up. If there is "average" copper wire (by your definition Raviolli) then there must be below average copper wire and higher than average copper wire? So I guess you answered your own question. Better copper wire (above average, to use your extremely general description) can lead to better sounding cables vs average and below average copper wire.
That was easy.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
there is one very important moment here that demonstrates why exotic cables are a ripoff. If they perform better than your average copper wire, then something bad must happen to the signal once it enters the copper wire. YES OR NO! Will someone have the balls to answer this?
Your assuming something bad happens in the signal, not necessarily, but something better happens with better grades of metals, better designs, build. Kinda like the different grades of gasoline. They will all work in any car, and the 87 octane doesn't do anything bad per say. The 93 octane just does it better. Same gas, different grade, different results in performance.
Yet some will still say gas is gas and your wasting your coin on the 93 octane stuff....even though they may have never used the premium gas for a period of time to evaluate the benefits. But they read it somewhere on the internet that it's a waste of money.
Is there snake oil in expensive cables ? You bet, but not all are rebadged monoprice stuff at higher prices. Bad cables exist along side the good ones, which is why some trial and error is needed along with a tad bit of research.
These cable threads really bring out the uneducated, no offense to anyone. Get your read on, try a few different cables. If none of this matters to you anyway, cool, rock on.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
wire is no different in that respect.....you must try for yourself.
The electrical characteristics of Cu, Ag and Au are well defined and understood for room temperature applications at audio frequencies. Just google the electrical resistivity and you will get the same results from all sites.
A mattress is much more complicated to characterize as is a bottle of wine as to how it interfaces with a body or a nose. -
Tony,
Stop propositioning him with idiotic ideas. His pea brain can't handle it.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Wine like that is expensive because that is what someone will pay for them.
That's an over simplistic generalization. Better "anything" usually costs more because there is more of "whatever" involved to make it better than the average. Sure some things are over-priced and people will pay that price. But to simply say your above statement is pretty silly.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Tony,
Stop propositioning him with idiotic ideas. His pea brain can't handle it.
H9
He asked Brock, but given the amount of times he's asked, we answered, and it still hasn't sunk in, Thought I'd dumb it down a tad for the poor guy. No offense Rav, but really, we've answered your questions on numerous occasions, and DK has even given you scientific results.....in length.....with links....and a kiss on the cheek, yet somehow you still fail to grasp the concepts of audio signals and what effects them.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
He's not here to learn or try anything. He likes to TROLL.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
That's an over simplistic generalization. Better "anything" usually costs more because there is more of "whatever" involved to make it better than the average. Sure some things are over-priced and people will pay that price. But to simply say your above statement is pretty silly.
H9
You can't define "Better Anything" Brock.
The market dictates that, and only because that is what people will pay.
The buyer defines "Better".Testing
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.....and how does a buyer define "better" ?
HE TRY'S DIFFERENT SH&T !!!HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I can't define what a better steak is or what a better bottle of wine is or what better cables are. I just look to the market to tell me????
That's ridiculous. I happen to be into wine and spirits and the most expensive one doesn't always equate to being better in my opinion so I absolutely can decide on my own which is better.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
So, what's up everyone? :biggrin:Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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So, what's up everyone? :biggrin:
Oh, you know Steve, just getting schooled by some really smart audio guru's. I sure have learned a lot! :rolleyes:.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I can't define what a better steak is or what a better bottle of wine is or what better cables are. I just look to the market to tell me????
That's ridiculous. I happen to be into wine and spirits and the most expensive one doesn't always equate to being better in my opinion so I absolutely can decide on my own which is better.
H9
I'm a wine guy too and honestly, when the market says to go try this expensive bottle by xyz winery, I run the other way. I've had 50 buck bottles that blew away 150 buck bottles by no short order. Demand and quality drive price, the market plays catchup afterwards.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I agree Tony, just like audio with wine or scotch or tequila I like to find the good values that taste outside their class (based on my preference). I never buy based strictly on market price or hype.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Same with women Brock ? Lookin' for somethin' that performes outside her class....on the cheap ? LOL !!!HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Any class at all is a good thing...Lmao!"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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I can't define what a better steak is or what a better bottle of wine is or what better cables are. I just look to the market to tell me????
That's ridiculous. I happen to be into wine and spirits and the most expensive one doesn't always equate to being better in my opinion so I absolutely can decide on my own which is better.
H9
Not sure why there is expensive wines then, when the hundreds of millions of people who REALLY know
what they are talking about, consistantly buys such things.
They all could have saved some dough by simply coming to the "Audio Oracle H9".
And then it may ring true, that prices like everything else, revolve around you!Testing
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everyone carefully avoiding answering the question with yes or no, so they don't get pinned. Just spitting jibberish that cannot be verified.
Tony, how can the cable do something good, what are these gasoline comparisons?? What are you talking about?
The cable is like a pipe, a conduit that the signal needs to go through. The best possible cable has the signal that exits the cable exactly the same as the signal that enters the cable. If any changes to the signal happen during the transit, that is a drawback of the cable. EVEN IF YOU LIKE IT BETTER, if the cable changed the signal, this is no longer true reproduction of the source.
So the best theoretically possible cable makes no changes to the signal during the transit (1). Let that be cable EXOTIC and cost 1000 per 12 ft
Then we have the Garden-Variety cable, you pick it, that costs $30 for 12 ft.
Then Heiney comes with his golden ears and with his soul, and he testifies that the music sounds better with the Exotic cable.
Since Heiney is always right, there must be a difference between the two cables (2)
Well then from 1 and 2 it follows that something 'bad' happens to the signal inside the Garden-Variety cable. (3)
Do you follow Heiney? Do you see that this is the only way for the perfect cable to sound better?
Now, what if one were able to demonstrate that there are no changes to the signal in the Garden Variety cable??I have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs.jeremymarcinko wrote: »But as in all things your perception is your reality. -
When I moved up to MIT cables I could tell a difference. I don't care what anyone says. Never did, never will.--Gary--
Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out. -
Never mind, I fixed it!Hello Kitty am/fm CD player
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lol!--Gary--
Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out. -
everyone carefully avoiding answering the question with yes or no, so they don't get pinned. Just spitting jibberish that cannot be verified.
Tony, how can the cable do something good, what are these gasoline comparisons?? What are you talking about?
The cable is like a pipe, a conduit that the signal needs to go through. The best possible cable has the signal that exits the cable exactly the same as the signal that enters the cable. If any changes to the signal happen during the transit, that is a drawback of the cable. EVEN IF YOU LIKE IT BETTER, if the cable changed the signal, this is no longer true reproduction of the source.
So the best theoretically possible cable makes no changes to the signal during the transit (1). Let that be cable EXOTIC and cost 1000 per 12 ft
Then we have the Garden-Variety cable, you pick it, that costs $30 for 12 ft.
Then Heiney comes with his golden ears and with his soul, and he testifies that the music sounds better with the Exotic cable.
Since Heiney is always right, there must be a difference between the two cables (2)
Well then from 1 and 2 it follows that something 'bad' happens to the signal inside the Garden-Variety cable. (3)
Do you follow Heiney? Do you see that this is the only way for the perfect cable to sound better?
Now, what if one were able to demonstrate that there are no changes to the signal in the Garden Variety cable??
EPIC FAIL, TRY AGAIN (for the 1000th time)
I'm sure Chef Boy Ardee is unhappy with you.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
This discussion has been closed.