Will power make that big of a difference? Do i need more?

2»

Comments

  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    Both channel level and Master volume alter the output voltage of the preamp side of the receiver. The power amp will receive the same voltage no matter where the adjustment is made no efficiency is gained. Your displayed volume level is in relation to reference level not how hard your amp working. I think they need to put wattage meters back on amps and receivers this is the only real indication of how much work your amp is doing.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,440
    edited November 2012
    deronb1 wrote: »
    I NEVER turn my AVR up that high. I don't have to because I have my channels maxed out. I rarely put it past -30db because it gets uncomfortably loud. Isn't my amp running more efficiently this way?

    Yes, but by doing so, maxing out the channel levels, your also introducing distortion. Here's the ticket, and my opinion is all, if you find you have to max out channel levels, turn the volume way up to get the sound you like......then you have the wrong gear in the wrong sized room and sooner or later something will go kaput.
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  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    deronb1 wrote: »
    When I run MCACC on my Pio, it always sets the speakers way too low

    His system is more than adequate for his room.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,764
    edited November 2012
    tonyb wrote: »
    Yes, but by doing so, maxing out the channel levels, your also introducing distortion. Here's the ticket, and my opinion is all, if you find you have to max out channel levels, turn the volume way up to get the sound you like......then you have the wrong gear in the wrong sized room and sooner or later something will go kaput.

    I think you are missing the point. I DON'T have to turn the volume up that much to achieve the desired level. By reducing the channel output levels and turning up the main volume, it would seem to me that THAT, would increase distortion.
  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    Yes I think he is. Distortion is a non issue on that Pioneer elite.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,440
    edited November 2012
    Both ways would, point being.....if you have to turn it up that loud, or your not getting the level of detail you like at lower volumes, switch to a more efficient speaker line like Klipsch which do very well at lower volume levels. From your description, it appears your missing dynamics at moderate to lower volumes, hence you max out the channel levels. If thats the case, then your current gear isn't well suited for your ears in your room. Thats all I'm sayin'. I realize we all do what we can with what we have to work with but maybe time to start looking at other options.
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,764
    edited November 2012
    Uh....I am so confused. I AM happy with the detail I hear at lower volumes.
  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    I am with you Klipsch ability of making more with less. I dont think deronb1 was ever unhappy with the way his system sounds. We had gotten off topic discussing why he preferred channel levels maxed out.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • gp4jesusgp4jesus Posts: 1,233
    edited November 2012
    More power can boost sound quality through the transients...
    Its how the HQ power handles the load.
    In my opinion 100w per channel is sufficient to play at reference levels given a good power supply*...
    ...part of it for sure! I wouldn't be surprised if it were easy to do AVR PS upgrades*, AVRs could THEN perform better. Though I'd be hard pressed to believe that* could run w/separate amps.
    and low Thd% think 0.09% or lower 20hz-20khz 2 channels driven.
    low IM & TIM makes a bigger dif than THD. Many w/"golden ears" would be challenged to hear the dif below .1%THD. IM & TIM on the other hand...
    Its important not to look at marketing numbers of thd% at 1khz.
    good stuff J!
    Also further noise floor is becoming an issue with the heavy processing of HD video signals and 3d 4k is creating low freq. noise in alot of the new Hdmi recievers. Especially with wi-fi and networking ypao audyssey smart features all draw off the same power supply and introduce some level of interference . Some manufacturers are listing the noise floor % in the spec but I am unsure as of yet what is acceptable. I would think 0.0.
    Maxing all levels will do the same as turning up the volume 6db's usually. You need a spl meter to calibrate all channels. Room conditions size,speakers furniture rugs curtains walls all reflect or absorb sound. As well as the distance from your listening position from each individual speaker. The system needs to be properly calibrated not maxed out. Maxing them all out could cause the mains drown out the center or the surrounds louder than the mains depending on their location distance line of sight etc.
    Spot on Jer!
    ...crossing over every channel at 80hz will make the surround experience more seamless, and take a huge load* off of your receivers power supply* allowing it of produce clearer more accurate sound.
    *More good info. 80hz HP is ok so long as the affected speakers' f3 is 60hz or lower
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED
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  • specd_outspecd_out Posts: 505
    edited November 2012
    Power is a double edged sword IMO. Having alot of power means nothing if its not clean quality power. You have to have both. I would rather have a higher quality power with a lower wattage and just watch my levels
    HT Rig Samsung 64F8500 |Pioneer Elite BDP-52FD|Pioneer Elite VSX-32| Two Carver TFM-15cb Bridged for mains|Polk Audio RTiA5 Cherry|Polk Audio CsiA6 Cherry|Polk Audio T-15 Heights|Polk Audio FXia6 Surround|DIY 8cuft Dayton Ultimax 15" powered with a Crown XLS1000
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  • gp4jesusgp4jesus Posts: 1,233
    edited November 2012
    specd_out wrote: »
    Power is a double edged sword IMO. Having alot of power means nothing if its not clean quality power. You have to have both. I would rather have a higher quality power with a lower wattage and just watch my levels
    Yup!
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED
    Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro
    Samsung BDP, DirecTV Rcvr, Xbox 360, Dennon LDP, Phillips CD chgr

    Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside; CC outside
    BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside & out
    8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside & out

    LR: tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels Woofers - 980BX; M&T - 981
    CC: Rotel RB985 -> tri-amped CSi A6
    5 Audio Pro Subs: 1 B1.39: 1 Evidence at each corner
    Surrounds: Hafler XL280 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3*
    Power Conditioning & Distribution:
    3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman Miniport 20s
    *Bi-amped by years end
  • RamZetRamZet Posts: 776
    edited November 2012
    How did you know how much power you were pumping to them?

    Well I didnt use a meter but my amp is rated at 100w per channel. Rotel normally rates their amps lower then what they are too. So I feel its safe say it was 100w per channel.
    B&W
    B&K
  • Geoff4rfcGeoff4rfc Posts: 1,776
    edited November 2012
    Bugstyvy wrote: »
    power is overated

    If you're serious, then ignorance is not always bliss.

    What happened to jarod? Did you ever get your set up improved?
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman

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  • ravaneliravaneli Posts: 530
    edited November 2012
    if power is critical, then what do you do of 20 WPC tube amps? hm?

    Of course it is overrated, for most common cases that is. As long as you play on volumes that don't push your amp to the point of distortion, the speakers do not know what is the power POTENTIAL of the amp. If you feed speakers 20WPC with no distortion the speakers would play the same whether the amp is rated to 500 watts or 50 wats. The speakers could not possibly know.

    If you like it loud and shaking, yes, you gona need the power. But for most folks a good AVR is plenty of power.
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs. :wink:
    But as in all things your perception is your reality.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,692
    edited November 2012
    ravaneli wrote: »
    if power is critical, then what do you do of 20 WPC tube amps? hm?

    Of course it is overrated, for most common cases that is. As long as you play on volumes that don't push your amp to the point of distortion, the speakers do not know what is the power POTENTIAL of the amp. If you feed speakers 20WPC with no distortion the speakers would play the same whether the amp is rated to 500 watts or 50 wats. The speakers could not possibly know.

    If you like it loud and shaking, yes, you gona need the power. But for most folks a good AVR is plenty of power.

    Spoken like someone that doesn't have a clue.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    ravaneli wrote: »
    if power is critical, then what do you do of 20 WPC tube amps? hm?

    Of course it is overrated, for most common cases that is. As long as you play on volumes that don't push your amp to the point of distortion, the speakers do not know what is the power POTENTIAL of the amp. If you feed speakers 20WPC with no distortion the speakers would play the same whether the amp is rated to 500 watts or 50 wats. The speakers could not possibly know.

    If you like it loud and shaking, yes, you gona need the power. But for most folks a good AVR is plenty of power.

    I absolutely agree with you, I have a 160w 20hz to 20khz at 8 ohm .006thd%. Good solid heavy amp it has wattage meters on the front and typical loud listening levels draws only 30watts and maybe 60w thru the transients. I've popped the protection breaker on my MONTITOR10B'S and was only drawing 90watts at the time and it was stupid loud( trying to impress my idiot friends). However some of these guys with SDA's require some more juice and a 4ohm capable amp to push all of those drivers. Im with you though its not the power that makes a amp good, as there are plenty of really bad high power amps. Audiophiles buy and try all sorts of things for a PERCIEVED benefit. But as in all things your perception is your reality.

    It would be very helpful if the guys who like to make the "your absolutely wrong" posts, would ELABORATE why. If you guys have all the knowledge please pass it along, that is what the forums are for. These short condescending and minimizing post are not helpful to anyone, Remember everything you know you once did not. Shed some light.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,440
    edited November 2012
    It would be very helpful if the guys who like to make the "your absolutely wrong" posts, would ELABORATE why. If you guys have all the knowledge please pass it along, that is what the forums are for. These short condescending and minimizing post are not helpful to anyone, Remember everything you know you once did not. Shed some light.

    First off Jeremy, welcome to the club. We do explain things Jeremy, but it gets tiresome doing it over and over again on a weekly even daily basis when the same questions are asked. Most the info people ask for is already available if they'd just search some threads. On the flip side, things get explained and some fail to grasp the concept or just plain refuse to believe any of them. Some often opinionated, and often from lack of experience.

    With that said, a good avr is probably adequate for most 8 ohm speakers in a midsized room. Lots of variables when trying to match power to speakers and volume levels in a given room. There is no one size fits all in this hobby. Probably the single most thing people get wrong is watts and current.....lets make that 2 things, receiver power ratings, which are skewed from the getgo in most cases.

    Lets talk for a second about amps in a basic way. An amp stores power so it is available on demand from your sticky fingers on the volume dial and big loud transients in movies or music. Take a look at the power supply in a receiver, then look at a seperate amplifier and tell me which is more equiped to store power. A seperate amp has better parts, bigger caps to store power, thus can deliver more current and faster when needed. The thing is, most who start with a basic AVR and entry level speakers soon start to get that upgrade bug and see some nice big floorstanders for a steal somewhere. They have no clue if they are 8 or 4 ohm, or the power to drive all those extra drivers needed. But....they buy them anyway and then post a thread of why they sound like crap or a tweeter isn't working. They hook them up to their entry level AVR, and proceed to bury the volume dial to see what these big floorstanders can do. Eh....we were all young once, no ?

    This forum is more so an education site. We have members from every walk of life with experience with most anything in audio and video and across multiples of brands. What some take from it, believe in it, prejudices aside, is up to them. Audio for the most part is a journey of self discovery, but you have to be willing to take those occasional steps. As a fairly new member Jeremy, ask what you like but do some research, read some older threads too. Chances are you may learn something you weren't even looking to learn by doing so. Forgive the one line answers, it's basically just frustration aimed at some who repeatedly try to give out bad advice or just refuse to grasp basic concepts in audio. We do have fun too, the longer your around the more you'll get to know personalities and these one liners will soon appear to be hilarious rather than demeaning. Again, welcome to the club, stick around and ask away.
    HT SYSTEM-
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    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
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    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • ravaneliravaneli Posts: 530
    edited November 2012
    But as in all things your perception is your reality.

    how true is that? Must put in sig.
    I actually believe that most people are honest in reporting 'amazing' improvements that do not exist in reality. Human mind is still a largely unexplored territory. It is very hard not to believe your own sensors.
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs. :wink:
    But as in all things your perception is your reality.
  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    Okay, thank you for your welcome. I like it here, lots of good information and some I disagree with. So I will ask some rhetorical questions. Are all new members are new to audio? Or did some come for information and others come to share information? Is it up to the one asking the question to decipher which reply is most helpful? Why is there reason to be frustrated at other members if their opinion is different? Even if they are wrong. Isnt this what keeps the forum alive a revolving door of information? If one grows tired of answering the same questions would it be better to comment on something else? Is the forum open to all members to share their experiences? I think it is great to tell people their wrong, but unless you elaborate it becomes condescending. I would like to think our Senior members would be leading by example. Cheers and thank you for the well written response.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,692
    edited November 2012
    Was Rodney King a hero to you?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • specd_outspecd_out Posts: 505
    edited November 2012
    The reason people get tired of answering the same question is because most of the time the OP is just to lazy to search for something. They are either not knowledgeable enough to understand how a forum functions or they just are too lazy. Either way its tiring.

    I have been on this forums for nearly 5 years and have just over 200 posts. Mainly because I dont post in the OT forum much and because I search everything. 95% of the time my exact question has been asked and answered before.

    Telling to person they are wrong is better then just giving them a link to the search page like is done on most forums .
    HT Rig Samsung 64F8500 |Pioneer Elite BDP-52FD|Pioneer Elite VSX-32| Two Carver TFM-15cb Bridged for mains|Polk Audio RTiA5 Cherry|Polk Audio CsiA6 Cherry|Polk Audio T-15 Heights|Polk Audio FXia6 Surround|DIY 8cuft Dayton Ultimax 15" powered with a Crown XLS1000
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  • gp4jesusgp4jesus Posts: 1,233
    edited November 2012
    RamZet wrote: »
    Well I didnt use a meter but my amp is rated at 100w per channel. Rotel* normally rates their amps lower then what they are too. So I feel its safe** [to] say** it was [or "is" or "outputs"] 100w per channel.
    What model*? Rotels always out perform their power & distortion specs. So you're VERY safe** to say**!
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED
    Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro
    Samsung BDP, DirecTV Rcvr, Xbox 360, Dennon LDP, Phillips CD chgr

    Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside; CC outside
    BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside & out
    8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside & out

    LR: tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels Woofers - 980BX; M&T - 981
    CC: Rotel RB985 -> tri-amped CSi A6
    5 Audio Pro Subs: 1 B1.39: 1 Evidence at each corner
    Surrounds: Hafler XL280 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3*
    Power Conditioning & Distribution:
    3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman Miniport 20s
    *Bi-amped by years end
  • gp4jesusgp4jesus Posts: 1,233
    edited November 2012
    Are all new members are new to audio?
    Been around "it" 28 years when I became a "new" member.
    Or did some come for information and others come to share information?
    I've gotten* more info* than I've contributed even though I contribute often.
    * I read a lot of threads old & new, here and on other forums
    Is it up to the one asking the question to decipher which reply is most helpful? Why is there reason to be frustrated at other members if their opinion is different? Even if they are wrong. Isn't this what keeps the forum alive a revolving door of information? If one grows tired of answering the same questions would it be better to comment on something else?
    I've asked for stickies for some of FAQs. One day...
    Is the forum open to all members to share their experiences?
    Yup.
    I think it is great to tell people their wrong,...
    Nicely, please?
    ...but unless you elaborate it becomes condescending.
    Good point
    I would like to think our Senior members would be leading by example.
    And so they should. Feel free to PM me. I'll try w/out an attitude.

    Tony
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED
    Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro
    Samsung BDP, DirecTV Rcvr, Xbox 360, Dennon LDP, Phillips CD chgr

    Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside; CC outside
    BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside & out
    8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside & out

    LR: tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels Woofers - 980BX; M&T - 981
    CC: Rotel RB985 -> tri-amped CSi A6
    5 Audio Pro Subs: 1 B1.39: 1 Evidence at each corner
    Surrounds: Hafler XL280 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3*
    Power Conditioning & Distribution:
    3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman Miniport 20s
    *Bi-amped by years end
  • RamZetRamZet Posts: 776
    edited November 2012
    gp4jesus wrote: »
    What model*? Rotels always out perform their power & distortion specs. So you're VERY safe** to say**!

    Lol,
    I was using a RMB-1076
    Im driving my polks with it now. Nice little amp. Check it out.
    http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=465&Tab=1&Pic=2
    B&W
    B&K
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,440
    edited November 2012
    Jeremy, relax dude, this is an interactive forum with tons of different personalities. What we are not, is Wikipedia. Read up, ask away, enjoy the family environment around here. Like most families however, there's little room for thin skin.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
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