Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Anecdotal evaluation, as critical as I could manage for myself

If you want to know how I evaluated the speakers, and what the data looks like on graphs, here you go, nerds

I was surprised by my results in places. I'll talk about that in a follow-up.

All songs on CDs, burned from FLACs, played on my Nakamichi player, digital out to the Yamaha HTR-5960 I'm using as a pre, set to Direct, volume at -40 (I really don't like Yamaha's volume system), amp set to same gain levels for both speakers.

PDF has graphical representations of my scoring.

Notes

M12 is first, 1C is second:

Get Back: Recording probably has a lot to do with the refinement of the mix.

Get Back: Need to double-check speakers, but nice. Volume. Needs a little more.

Heard it through the grapevine: Vocals are recessed, like Get Back. This first listen is at 40 on my dial. Might contribute, and bass is hidden back at this volume on this mix.

Heard it from the grapevine: Volume again. I worry about treble, then something nice jumps out... like the violins at the end.

Ramble On: Better mix than Get Back and Grapevine.. Voice a little more to the surface, but still a little obscured. Sources don't exactly feel like a whole.

Ramble On: That was nice. Plant still sounds subdued, but it seems to more match the recording. Some parts were legit 3 feet outside the speakers. Volume... Like to rate turned up 5...

Anoana: Newer, better recording that absolutely wanted the low end to come through. And it does at this volume. Main voice still a little trapped in a plane between the 2 speakers, neither forward or behind.

Anoana: Voices recessed compared to the rest.. low end and mid fill very rich. wonder if volume would affect.

Prison Sex: Soundstage was from ls to rs, but pieces weren't... nice? They were just there. Sure cymbals hit different speakers, but meh for ss. Bass there, but more like a feeling than defined, except at the end. Drums sound muted.

Prison Sex: Creak at beginning was good. There's the low end. Needs volume. Pretty much background level.

Tears of a Clown: Sounds like music is missing, bass guitar, horn blurts. Too bright.

Tears of a clown: There is a piece missing in this mix... A blurt and a carnival sound... Voice is bright. Pieces aren't really a mix.

Whole Lotta Love: What a great recording. Nothing on my personal list comes close. If the 1C do better, that's a win. Vocals still on a restricted plane inbetween speakers. Drums obscured, but separation of everything else was great.

Whole lotta love: Well now. This slightly skews the 1c a little higher on all its graphs, if used. This wasn't in the original data. I left it out somehow. Wooooo, baby. Sound to the walls, and the rotating sound felt like it was both going through my head and above it. Voices on all Zep's old stuff has his voice too far back, though. Same for old Stone's recordings. Mixes of the times?

Money: Very low gain compared to other recordings. Everything was small sounding. Like a band of tiny people playing tiny instruments. Treble was pleasant, but not scintillating. Voices still a little muted.

Money: Even subdued, everything was clear.
----/
The Chain: There's info missing. Same volume as Money. Can't make out the bass.. Vocals smushed together. hard to make Stevie out until the end. But the voices are just suppressed. It almost worked, but didn't. Drums sounded like a drum machine.

The Chain: Voices still mushed. When bass hit at 3:20, you can hear the strings undulate as they vibrate. Super nice. Will likely change impact at higher volume. It's a low mix for dynamism.

When Doves Cry: I know this song. It's missing something. The richness of the guitarist's voice is missing. Highs are fine, but keyboard is muted. His bype'ing seemed low. Sounded thin, like something was missing.

When Doves Cry: Rhythm guitarist's voice sounds right! Recording is subdued. Vocals a little back from where I want them. Not a super dynamic experience. Wonder if more volume would help. Voices very pleasant, just want more.

In Bloom: Might be the grunge, but it was kind of fuzzy until the quiet parts. Voice was clear, but not as forward as I wanted. Bass guitar low.

In Bloom: It's all there, just... grungy.

Killing in the name of: Wow. This was great. Everything better than most other recordings. These speakers were made for that song?

Killing in the name of: That kicks it up a notch. Still think these need more juice to hit same volume as M12. Very full sounding.

Hotel california: Great recording. Balanced. Lead still a little recessed. But damn, what a great recording. Crowd sounds right, too.

Hotel California: Smooth. Def. needs more volume, but keeping the same. strings are gorgeous, bass is there. low end is there. Curious about added sparkle if using different dome on top tweeters...

Dad Spiegel: Excellent. Tall. Electronic music is great.

Das Spiegel: Tight, clear, pleasantly balanced. Treble sparkle not there, but treble smoothness is. Not fatiguing at all. Not as harsh as M12 throughout.

Made it through?

I appreciate the ongoing help and advice.

I'm not finished, yet, but maybe finished with the big tweaks for now.

Unless I replace the upper Wuhan domes with a couple of others that might have more sparkle. I think the transition from mids to the lower tweeter is wonderful.

Still need to see about adjusting the gain on the amp for these.

Gardenstater · February 2023

I made it through

I suggest normalizing the 1C volume to the M12s by using whitenoise and a Decibel measuring app that averages over time and has 0.1dB resolution. You can find the volume settings required for each speaker to achieve a good sPL level that is equal and good for eval.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Ah. Didn't think about that. Thank you!

One of the surprising things, to me, was how (even at a lower output) the 1C scored well. I didn't see that until I looked at the graphs. I actually thought they scored lower than they actually did, almost across the board. A benefit of days between listening to one set and then the other.

I'm going to run a cable over to the M12 and measure at some point this week. We'll see if it was lower on the 1C, or just my feeling.

Gardenstater · February 2023

One song missing above^ ? 14 songs but pdf shows 15.

Very scientific

So overall enjoyment score of 108 for the 1C vs 98 for the M12

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Walking in Your Footsteps. I messed up the notes on those. Don't know if the 2nd one is accurate. Left it out.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Fixed an error in the soundstage graph, thanks GS!

Corrected pdf for graph data:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IcAEwxkexbb97bNxvRrqhKLZXWVXdHx2/view?usp=drivesdk

Gardenstater wrote: »

So overall enjoyment score of 108 for the 1C vs 98 for the M12

I'm a harsh critic.

Infamously so.

My favorite color ink is red.

My grad work was in documentary (emphasis on diplomacy, conflict resolution, plus objective and subjective truth).

But what does that matter to this project and this thread?

I may seem skewed to bubbles and good will, but I'm honestly judging and evaluating everything, all the time [laughs]. It's one reason I dig DK's evaluations.

But, when I was a wee lad, my favorite monster in D&D was the Revenant.

Because what better way to right the wrongs against you after death, than to return as a righteous arbiter of revenge that spares the innocent and punishes the guilty?

Sooooooo!

I probably would rate the 1C even higher, if I wasn't me. I debated changing the numbers by 1 to the positive. I subtracted 1 because of the added scrutiny evaluating them after the teardowns. Thought about it while rating it on each song. Decided to leave it and see how it panned out. Since I haven't looked at the numbers, it surprises me that the 1C came out ahead.

mhardy6647 · February 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Anecdotal evaluation, as critical as I could manage for myself

If you want to know how I evaluated the speakers, and what the data looks like on graphs, here you go, nerds ...

All songs on CDs, burned from FLACs, played on my Nakamichi player, digital out to the Yamaha HTR-5960 I'm using as a pre, set to Direct, volume at -40 (I really don't like Yamaha's volume system), amp set to same gain levels for both speakers.

So...
1) any Nakamachi player in particular? E.g., an OMS-7 or something like that?
2) what are you using as a power amplifier?

plastic_avatar · February 2023

Ah. Nothing fancy on the Nak end. Just a venerable CD-4. It's my favorite consumer model I've had over the years.

Amp is a Yamaha P2250. Best I can do as a thrifty audio person. Goal in the coming year or two is:

- Get DAC.

- Get a new pre that can love my blasphemous EQ.

- Get rid of my two P2250 and break into the $500-$800 range for something better used.

- Will try some albums on my turntables later on. After I rebuild my phono pre (don't laugh, it's a Raalistic and it does just fine).

F1nut · February 2023

digital out to the Yamaha HTR-5960

Now, there's some real quality...LOL

This thread is an embarrassment to the forum.

skipshot12 · February 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Ah. Nothing fancy on the Nak end. Just a venerable CD-4. It's my favorite consumer model I've had over the years.

Amp is a Yamaha P2250. Best I can do as a thrifty audio person. Goal in the coming year or two is:

- Get DAC.

- Get a new pre that can love my blasphemous EQ.

- Get rid of my two P2250 and break into the $500-$800 range for something better used.

- Will try some albums on my turntables later on. After I rebuild my phono pre (don't laugh, it's a Raalistic and it does just fine).

That 2250 is no slouch.
Another one to bi-amp and you's be all set.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

skipshot12 wrote: »

That 2250 is no slouch.
Another one to bi-amp and you's be all set.

I wondered what it would take to make the crossovers bi-ampable... but I didn't want to start that potential firestorm yet [laughs].

Out of the equipment I've been able to afford over my life, the P2250 + the HTR-5960 as a pre + my sturdy ol' Nakamichi CD is the best combo I've had to privilege to own.

Since losing my job at the place I worked at for almost half my life (during year one of the pandemic), and spending the next year and a half under and unemployed, I'm so very, very pleased I have what I have now. And grateful to have what I have for myself and my family.

Between my thrifting and the generosity of friends and near-strangers, I built up a system that I am proud of. My dream amp since I was 13 was the home version of the P2250 (with the Knight Rider red light bars). That I have the roadie version makes me happy. It only took... oh... 39 years to get it

And I get to continue to share listening to a stereo with my daughters. Only now with 100% more SDA W-O-W.

Over the past, I dunno... 8 years? I put together and gave away at least 6 stereos for friends and co-workers (a wedding present here, a going-to-college dorm rocker there, and systems for people who needed cheering up, or could use a little boost during a rough patch). I've also given away separate sets of speakers, turntables, and CD players to people who are not as fortunate as I am. Friends and family know I do this, and they'll sometimes donate to the cause if I'm searching for a piece to complete a setup for someone.

So, yeah. The P2250 is no slouch.

I listened to it tonight with a friend who is a Definitive and Adcom guy. He was impressed by the sound. We enjoyed talking about how the vibrations of strings sounded on Hotel California and Wish You Were Here. It was great fun. The soundstage blew him away. I'm still in shock by it myself.

And I thank you for your contribution to this wonderful experience, Skip!

I'm totally making a list of all the people who helped (and how) to put on a paper to seal inside the cabs. I might 3D print it for durability. Like a kind of plaque.

xschop · February 2023

For an SDA veteran, you should know that the IC cable demonstrates 0 vs 100% SDA operation.

Gardenstater · February 2023

100% more SDA than his M12's !

plastic_avatar · February 2023

[looks at responses]

[thinks]

I have 100% more SDA W-O-W in my life because I had zero before. So any kind is more. That's a binary operation there, right?

Oh, hey! Thanks, Bit!

I loved you on the big screen, and even when you had to take that job on Automan. Don't let those quantum states get you down.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

By ear and by those numbers, how did my M12 and 1C compare?

Gardenstater found a mistake in my compiling of eval forms, so I went back removed an extra entry and deleted 2 that didn't have the right match for a pair.

(I did 3 complete evaluations on the 1C, of 15 songs each, during the from-bench, adjust, and tear-down phases. I crossed streams on 3 entries when I put it all together. Number data is not my primary language.)

The evaluation was done at my listening position at -40 on the dial. That is my 'singers are as loud as normal speaking in the room' setting. It's where I listen to music most when working or entertaining. I go between -20 and -30 when I'm listening for impact over critique.

Here are the totals (thank you GS!):

If you read my notes in a previous post, you'll see my biggest complaint was the sound level on the 1C seemed lower than the M12 at -40.

I can say, after a day of fiddling around and new comparisons, getting to -35 to -30 on the 1C causes them to blossom.

The M12 is a fairly linear experience. It just gets louder from -40 to -20. Everything is the same, just louder.

The 1C bloom. Hard to explain. It's like they open up and give me more of everything, not just volume. I was very surprised. I didn't expect that visceral feeling as the volume brought the level up to, and past parity with the M12.

Do other SDA owners understand what I'm saying?

bcwsrt · February 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

…

Do other SDA owners understand what I'm saying?

This is why I’m not quite getting the comparison to your Monitor 12s. Wouldn’t SDA 1Cs beat M12s all day long stock for stock?

Gardenstater · February 2023

One would hope so. I'm sure he will answer but is curiosity a valid reason? And I admire his valiant attempt to come up with a way of objectively coming up with a quantitative comparison for different aspects of quality of sound. He also has some sort of baseline to compare future mods he does to the 1C's (Yes there will be more mwah ha ha) and to the M12's.

xschop · February 2023

The 1C's should be harder to push than the M12's. Run an ohm-meter across a set of binding posts on each and get a baseline difference.
The wuhans will take a longer break-in time due to their stiff diaphragm surrounds, then sound clearer.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

bcwsrt wrote: »

Wouldn’t SDA 1Cs beat M12s all day long stock for stock?

I understand what you mean! Thank you for bringing that up.

Evaluating the bits is how I'm attempting to measure not just the SDA signal-specific difference vs. a great stereo image w/ the M12, but the qualities of the reproduction that I can try to compare directly.

And since all the mods I've done are untested en masse, it's entirely possible any one of them could've affected any portion of the sound in a way that meant the associated attribute would be worse than the M12.

And the treble comparison is a huge question mark. The modded Wuhans are an unknown.

I thought it would help with questions others have about whether what I did was worth it to me

Does that help explain it?

bcwsrt · February 2023

Gardenstater wrote: »

One would hope so. I'm sure he will answer but is curiosity a valid reason? And I admire his valiant attempt to come up with a way of objectively coming up with a quantitative comparison for different aspects of quality of sound. He also has some sort of baseline to compare future mods he does to the 1C's (Yes there will be more mwah ha ha) and to the M12's.

Sure, it is. And baselining the current state of the 1Cs is also valid. But, as far as the comparisons to the 12s go, I’d be good after the first song or two once I felt like the 1Cs had clubbed the 12s like a baby seal the way they’re supposed to.

Gardenstater · February 2023

It wasn't actually that cut and dried and varied from song to song (seal to seal?). You can see that if you check his data pdf. Like he said he did some very untried and true mods (or in their infancy?) and the wuhan tweeter comparison to the RD0194s in the M12s is very much of interest, both now and when they have broken in more. They are similar sized speakers with the same number of MWs and a large passive. You can say you would expect them to be better but that doesn't necessarily apply to his modded 1C's and I think it is interesting. I admire the humility and honesty and curiosity.

PS: Would you have expected the bass clarity to be 40% better? You knew that was going to be the outcome?

bcwsrt · February 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

bcwsrt wrote: »

Wouldn’t SDA 1Cs beat M12s all day long stock for stock?

I understand what you mean! Thank you for bringing that up.

Evaluating the bits is how I'm attempting to measure not just the SDA signal-specific difference vs. a great stereo image w/ the M12, but the qualities of the reproduction that I can try to compare directly.

And since all the mods I've done are untested en masse, it's entirely possible any one of them could've affected any portion of the sound in a way that meant the associated attribute would be worse than the M12.

And the treble comparison is a huge question mark. The modded Wuhans are an unknown.

I thought it would help with questions others have about whether what I did was worth it to me

Does that help explain it?

It does clarify things, yes.

bcwsrt · February 2023

Gardenstater wrote: »

…

PS: Would you have expected the bass clarity to be 40% better? You knew that was going to be the outcome?

I don’t recall where I said that. But I only rely on my ears and they don’t measure percentage differences.

He said everything else more eloquently, himself. I’m not bashing. It was just a question that I didn’t see addressed before. It may have been or been inferred and I missed it. My bad, if so.

Back to your regularly scheduled program …

Gardenstater · February 2023

bcwsrt wrote: »

Gardenstater wrote: »

…

PS: Would you have expected the bass clarity to be 40% better? You knew that was going to be the outcome?

I don’t recall where I said that. But I only rely on my ears and they don’t measure percentage differences.

He said everything else more eloquently, himself. I’m not bashing. It was just a question that I didn’t see addressed before. It may have been or been inferred and I missed it. My bad, if so.

Back to your regularly scheduled program …

Yeah man have a good one. I'd want to compare my new speakers to my old ones and it's cool the way he did it. I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that even an unmodded 1C would trounce an M12 in every single aspect of sound quality, and equally. We don't hear percentages but our brains try to quantify how much better something is.

plastic_avatar · February 2023

I'm so thankful to have you guys to talk this through with.

I appreciate your thoughts and questions more than you know.

This has been a helluva slog. Here at the end of this almost year-long process, I need to make sure I'm understood. And that I'm looking at the results as objectively as I can manage- for my own satisfaction.

And that poor baby seal =(

I prefer the Wuhans in the 1C to the 198 in the M12. I know, the Wuhans scored lower on clarity, but the double-tweeter transition from the mids makes the treble buttery. I prefer them on the 1C, even if there's a high end twinkle that's not as bright.

And the off-center stereo image is nuts.

Poor baby seal...

heiney9 · February 2023

If the volume wasn't the same for both, then the comparison means nothing. Plus, your numbers are arbitrary and only mean something to you, since you don't really expound upon how the numbers correlate to what you are hearing.

It's great you took the time to share, but it really means nothing to us. They are (2) completely different designs. One is a truly time aligned design, the other is SDA. The design principles between the speakers are about as far apart as one can get.

And you are comparing parts (Wuhan vs. 198 as one example) in 2 completely different speakers. All that means is in your situation in your over modded speakers you prefer one speaker to another (not component). You would need to compare the 2 tweeters in the same speaker to make any sort of educated opinion.

The two speakers are so different that you can't compare them side by side as being the same only with different parts.

H9

xschop · February 2023

I had to laugh at "over-modded". Perhaps your 1C's are under-modded as a baseline?

plastic_avatar · February 2023

I get what you're saying.

This is, when we boil it down, a test between how speaker X performs for me (and mine) vs speaker Y.

It's no different, really than anyone buying a speaker they never heard and comparing it to what they already have.

That^ happens all the time, and I don't think the reviews from all those people are useless.

Because this is such a strange task, I tried to make the evaluation part of this project as clear and comprehensive as I can manage. I absolutely could add more on the notes, so I've tried to fill in gaps in post. Some of which I answered in direct messages outside the thread.

The wrinkle is all the mods thrown at the project.

Any one could be a negative that would make speaker X more enjoyable. One day, I hope I have access to a non-wrecked pair of 1C to compare. Since this turned out to be a kind of junkyard hot-rodding, I'd love to hear a stock copy in good repair.

So!

I thought at some point this year it would be great to have people with less-modded pairs team up with me for some remote measurements. 2000s, 194s, and Wuhans. Bare baskets, dynamatted, dynamatted and foamed. Etc.

We'd have to account for qualities from different cap brands in the crossovers, but I think it'd be a fun additional set of data.

For now, trying to be as objective as I can be is the best I can do for anyone. And I'm happy with the results so far, am still working on them, and appreciate all the help from everyone.

(On the volume difference. I left it the same so I could rate how the sound and eval might change when I get the volume matched. I took a lot of measurements on an analyzer yesterday, and think I have the appropriate level dialed in. I was going to go back and reevaluate on my form, but life said spend time with the family, so I did.)

Gardenstater · February 2023

heiney9 wrote: »

It's great you took the time to share, but it really means nothing to us. They are (2) completely different designs. One is a truly time aligned design, the other is SDA. The design principles between the speakers are about as far apart as one can get.

Who is "us"? There are an awful lot of people out there. I found it interesting, especially his methodology. He rated each of 14 songs on a scale of 1 to 10 (0 to 10?) on the above categories of sound quality.

I would even be interested in hearing about your feelings regarding how brand new Legend L600s sound compared to undermodded 1C's. Just pokin' a lil' fun there which is fairplay since you haven't heard the alleged "overmodded" 1C's.

Oh and I have never heard that the Monitor 12 was time aligned and it would surprise me since all drivers are mounted on the baffle, without the tweeter being recessed.

heiney9 · February 2023

I just realized he has the M12, I was thinking RTA-12 when I wrote that. The fact that the levels were mismatched means his 1-10 ratings are moot. Apples to Oranges.

He directly compared components in each (completely different and mismatched levels) speakers and stated he preferred one component over another (not one speaker over the other). Apple and Oranges.

I have no way of really competently comparing my 1C's to the L600's side by side. I can only comment on general differences based on my experiences in my listening space w/ultra familiar material.

H9

Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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