Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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Comments

  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,365
    He doesn't know if the RD0198's will sound better or not in his 1c's as he didn't try it.
  • invalid wrote: »
    He doesn't know if the RD0198's will sound better or not in his 1c's as he didn't try it.

    There is no tl mod for the SDA 1C, unless I am remembering incorrectly.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • invalid wrote: »
    He doesn't know if the RD0198's will sound better or not in his 1c's as he didn't try it.

    If there's a 198 mod, let me know!

    I would like to hear the 194 in these to see how the Wuhan compare.

    I'm fine with the Wuhan, because they don't have that 2000 quality that gives me a headache. All I know is Wuhan > 2000. If they end up = to or > the 194, great. If not, when I can justify it, I'd upgrade. I'm still floored that Polk makes these parts for their fans.

    Right now, my comparison is just the 1C with its mods vs a rather vanilla M12 upgrade.

    I'd love to have some Monitor 10 to compare to an SDA-2B/B, and if I find an SRS-2 for cheap... that would be fun to compare to the 1C.

    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
  • Jazzhead
    Jazzhead Posts: 533
    Glare and excessive sibilance are the killers. I can't take that - it's like chewing on a ball of tinfoil. One-note bass is next on the list.
  • skipshot12
    skipshot12 Posts: 1,158
    skipshot12 wrote: »
    That 2250 is no slouch.
    Another one to bi-amp and you's be all set.

    I wondered what it would take to make the crossovers bi-ampable... but I didn't want to start that potential firestorm yet [laughs].

    Out of the equipment I've been able to afford over my life, the P2250 + the HTR-5960 as a pre + my sturdy ol' Nakamichi CD is the best combo I've had to privilege to own.

    Since losing my job at the place I worked at for almost half my life (during year one of the pandemic), and spending the next year and a half under and unemployed, I'm so very, very pleased I have what I have now. And grateful to have what I have for myself and my family.

    Between my thrifting and the generosity of friends and near-strangers, I built up a system that I am proud of. My dream amp since I was 13 was the home version of the P2250 (with the Knight Rider red light bars). That I have the roadie version makes me happy. It only took... oh... 39 years to get it =)

    And I get to continue to share listening to a stereo with my daughters. Only now with 100% more SDA W-O-W.

    Over the past, I dunno... 8 years? I put together and gave away at least 6 stereos for friends and co-workers (a wedding present here, a going-to-college dorm rocker there, and systems for people who needed cheering up, or could use a little boost during a rough patch). I've also given away separate sets of speakers, turntables, and CD players to people who are not as fortunate as I am. Friends and family know I do this, and they'll sometimes donate to the cause if I'm searching for a piece to complete a setup for someone.

    So, yeah. The P2250 is no slouch.

    I listened to it tonight with a friend who is a Definitive and Adcom guy. He was impressed by the sound. We enjoyed talking about how the vibrations of strings sounded on Hotel California and Wish You Were Here. It was great fun. The soundstage blew him away. I'm still in shock by it myself.

    And I thank you for your contribution to this wonderful experience, Skip!

    I'm totally making a list of all the people who helped (and how) to put on a paper to seal inside the cabs. I might 3D print it for durability. Like a kind of plaque.

    No worries on the bi-amping.
    Didn't know the speaks aren't bi-amp capable.
    Disregard.
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    I tried looking again to no avail. Someone here (Inspired Sports?) made a thread about TL-ing (RD0198) a set of SRS-2s and that was what I think would be the way to TL mod the 1C's by replicating his SRS-2 tweeter schematic.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,814
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • skipshot12
    skipshot12 Posts: 1,158
    ^ Could be said for any mod I reckon…
    Once we do our first mod we’ve taken away from the original.
    Comes down to individual tastes & perceptions at that point.
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    That's like asking why I would drop an LS1 in a Porsche and keep adding heads, cam, long tube headers, power steering delete, carbon fiber hood.....yada yada
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,434
    edited February 2023
    skipshot12 wrote: »
    ^ Could be said for any mod I reckon…
    Once we do our first mod we’ve taken away from the original.
    Comes down to individual tastes & perceptions at that point.

    Incorrect.

    Most if not all Speaker companies do not put excellent crossover components in their crossovers due to cost over thousands or 10's of thousands of units. You should take a look at some Legacy audio crossovers, for a speaker costing tens of thousands of dollars they too have some pretty generic XO components on board. When you're looking at saving 40-50+ dollars per XO that translates to tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in the end. If you tighten up the tolerences of caps and resistors from 10-15% to 3-5% and some are 1% tolerence you can definitely make a dramatic difference without changing the intent of said speaker. In the beginning it was Matt Polk himself who told us the best thing we could do was better tighter tolerence caps,resistors and inductors would give us a better presentation of his speakers. He basically said he had to make consessions to be able to bring his stuff to market and still be affordable to the masses.
  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,814
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    That's like asking why I would drop an LS1 in a Porsche and keep adding heads, cam, long tube headers, power steering delete, carbon fiber hood.....yada yada

    No it's not.
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Jstas wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    That's like asking why I would drop an LS1 in a Porsche and keep adding heads, cam, long tube headers, power steering delete, carbon fiber hood.....yada yada

    No it's not.

    Well let's keep it audio-related so you may comprehend the analogy.

    Why would @ptrooper take a set of factory 1.2TLs and produce The Monoliths?
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,786
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    You can ask almost any "Heritage" Klipsch owner. ;)
  • Jazzhead
    Jazzhead Posts: 533
    I've modded about as much as anyone, and it all depends on the goal. Mine was to wring performance from old speakers with design shortcomings that I've kept for sentimental reasons. I don't mind if they've become FrankenPolks as long as they sound right. I've enjoyed the process, and did the "tried and true" mods first, and later did the more controversial ones "one at at time" with months of skeptical/critical listening between. I've had lots of experience with live music and if something sounds wrong, or ineffective I undo it (granted, undoing some mods is more easy than others). I've hit optimal sound at this point and am reticent to do much more. I might get @xschop to countersink the screw heads on my tweeters (diffraction).
  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,814
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    That's like asking why I would drop an LS1 in a Porsche and keep adding heads, cam, long tube headers, power steering delete, carbon fiber hood.....yada yada

    No it's not.

    Well let's keep it audio-related so you may comprehend the analogy.

    Why would @ptrooper take a set of factory 1.2TLs and produce The Monoliths?

    Wow.

    Really?

    Hit a nerve, huh?
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    If you're too nervous to answer the question, I understand.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • I'm afraid the Smithsonian isn't going to want these speakers anymore :o:#
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • daddyjt
    daddyjt Posts: 2,496
    Two (or more) things can be true at once:

    1. They sound fantastic to the owner.
    2. They ceased being “Polk” speakers long ago.
    "Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow


    “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 708
    edited February 2023
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    I understand that. 100%.

    So far, there haven't been any sound-altering nor SDA-affecting mods that fundamentally change:

    - speaker layout and orientation
    - box design
    - crossover design
    - speaker type
    - speaker design intention

    To me, those 5 are the big ones as to whether the speaker starts to become something new, rather than an evolutionary iteration.

    Everything so far is an update to the original release.

    If I changed the driver layout to mimic an SRS, whether that's positive or negative, it would be a major release. And the more major releases from the original you get, the more different the product becomes.

    Anyhow.

    I've thought about it more than a little, so high five. I get it. I do =)

    v1 = stock

    Changes that don't affect versioning:

    - new gaskets
    - crossover replacement, not upgrade
    - anything else that is new, but close to stock, like driver replacements.

    Off the top of my head, I'd add a .1 for each of these primary mods:

    - 194 upgrade
    - better caps/resistors
    - dynamatting baskets
    - foaming baskets
    - phase plugs
    - wiring upgrade
    - terminal plug upgrade
    - spikes
    - BlackHole5
    - felt around tweeters
    - felt around mids
    - edge diffraction mitigation for cabs
    - Wuhan upgrade
    - SDA cable/plug upgrade
    - semi-rings
    - bracing
    - upgraded inductors
    - cab treatments for resonance

    Add a .0.1 for each of these secondary mods

    - gluing magnets
    - removing polyswitch
    - replacing polyswitch with resistor
    - additional cab sealing
    - gimped or custom board work
    - custom functional work, like custom terminal plates
    - custom tweaks to 2000, 194, or Wuhan (.0.1 for each), such as: custom plates, custom backwave/felt plugs, ferrofluid, etc.
    - Hurricane nuts/bolts

    Anyhow, as is, I think it' maintains the soul.

    If I forgot mods in this train-of-thought blurt, let me know.

    Gives me a 1.12.6
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,533
    The phase plugs alone are SDA-affecting mods that fundamentally change the performance as documented by a very well respected member.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,365
    edited February 2023
    Why would you need dynamat on the driver baskets if you are just going to foam them?
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,230
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    That's like asking why I would drop an LS1 in a Porsche and keep adding heads, cam, long tube headers, power steering delete, carbon fiber hood.....yada yada

    No it's not.

    Well let's keep it audio-related so you may comprehend the analogy.

    Why would @ptrooper take a set of factory 1.2TLs and produce The Monoliths?

    You’re seriously not comparing the work of ptrooper’s 1.2tl’s to these now are you?

  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 708
    edited February 2023
    F1nut wrote: »
    The phase plugs alone are SDA-affecting mods that fundamentally change the performance as documented by a very well respected member.

    DK did a partial test, right?

    When I say fundamentally, I mean changing the [insert aspect here] into something new.

    A mod that gives a positive or negative by degrees, using the same setup, is not fundamentally changing the original into another full step on the versioning track.

    As suggested by me, off the top of my head.

    If we want to play with how I think about it, let's do it =)

    I'm up for changes on this made-up list of mine, if you want to help me tweak it. Seriously. Anyone with suggestions can chime in on Steve's-internal-versioning-rubric.
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,365
    I wonder how phase plugs does effect the SDA drivers?
  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,459
    edited February 2023
    invalid wrote: »
    I wonder how phase plugs does effect the SDA drivers?

    DK was dissatisfied with his imaging after vs before and felt he lost some magic. There may have been a problem with suspension sag in one of the drivers. There may be issues in a CRS+ with tweeter reflections off of the phase plugs especially with drivers so far apart and far from the tweeter. If so could be eliminated with a strip of acoustic foam like I did to my 7Bs in my thread in DIY section. Work in progress to see how they work in SDAs.

    Steven certainly enjoys them in his 1C but doesn't have a baseline to A/B. We will probably (nudge!) try the acoustic foam strip on his to see if his imaging improves.

    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited February 2023
    DK should add a felt pad around his tweets when he gets back around to doing audio stuff.
    The CRS+ driver layout is the most distanced tweeter to mid layout of all vintage Polks. I didnt like it when I had a set.

    The CRS soundstage was unnatural sounding and airy, to quote F1.. "a little TOO-wide" .
    Post edited by xschop on
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Toolfan66 wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    At what point do "mods" to a speaker become so extensive and numerous that the speakers is so far from original design and intent that it can't be considered a modification of the original and is now something entirely different?

    That's like asking why I would drop an LS1 in a Porsche and keep adding heads, cam, long tube headers, power steering delete, carbon fiber hood.....yada yada

    No it's not.

    Well let's keep it audio-related so you may comprehend the analogy.

    Why would @ptrooper take a set of factory 1.2TLs and produce The Monoliths?

    You’re seriously not comparing the work of ptrooper’s 1.2tl’s to these now are you?

    You misconstrued that analogy. Just another way of saying the best vintage SDAs Polk offered are now THE BEST on the planet because the owner saw fit.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,533
    edited February 2023
    xschop wrote: »
    DK should add a felt pad around his tweets when he gets back around to doing audio stuff.
    The CRS+ driver layout is the most distanced tweeter to mid layout of all vintage Polks. I didnt like it when I had a set.

    The CRS soundstage was unnatural sounding and airy, to quote F1.. "a little TOO-wide" .

    So, you didn't phase plug your CRS or CRS+? It's unclear which you had.

    There is a major difference between the CRS+ and CRS with the SDA tweeter, which definitely imparts an unnatural and airy artifact to the soundstage. The only cure is disconnecting the SDA tweeter. I never found the CRS+ to be unnatural and airy in the same sense as the CRS.

    Are you thinking the phase plugs would shrink the "a little TOO-wide" as I noted? Ray definitely noted it did. Therefore, it seems the phase plugs are affecting the performance of SDA.



    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk