Looking forward to L800 but have concerns, what are your thoughts?

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  • Unknown
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  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,315
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Mike Reeter wrote: »
    motorstereo wrote: »
    Mike Reeter wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    I thought I had heard that to and for that reason I didn't dare to try my dual mono Proton d1200 on my sda's for a long time. It turned out I heard wrong and that 1200 paired up quite well with my sda's.

    I think the Dual Mono issue has more to do with the new L800's...maybe ;)

    From my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong. The issue is a balanced architecture does something to the SDA signal. Balanced has an in phase and out of phase signal so it takes away from the SDA side.

    There you go, sounds reasonable to me :)

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 52,406
    edited March 2020
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Mike Reeter wrote: »
    motorstereo wrote: »
    Mike Reeter wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    I thought I had heard that to and for that reason I didn't dare to try my dual mono Proton d1200 on my sda's for a long time. It turned out I heard wrong and that 1200 paired up quite well with my sda's.

    I think the Dual Mono issue has more to do with the new L800's...maybe ;)

    From my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong. The issue is a balanced architecture does something to the SDA signal. Balanced has an in phase and out of phase signal so it takes away from the SDA side.

    100% correct. A "regular" dual mono amp or mono blocks are fine to use with the L800's.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,250
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    I thought a regular stereo amp fell into the balanced category. What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited March 2020
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
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    BlueFox wrote: »
    What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Pass X600.5 ;)
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,250
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    FTGV wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Pass X600.5 ;)

    I would think they fall into the mono block category.
    F1nut wrote: »
    100% correct. A "regular" dual mono amp or mono blocks are fine to use with the L800's.


    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited March 2020
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    BlueFox wrote: »
    FTGV wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Pass X600.5 ;)

    I would think they fall into the mono block category.

    While they are mono blocks , they are also a balanced design. Pass calls it SuperSymmetry . Stereo or mono blocks can be balanced/bridged designs.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,250
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    So, I can’t use the L800 with my amps, at least not if I wanted the SDA effect. Guess I will stick with regular stereo. :)
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
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    BlueFox wrote: »
    So, I can’t use the L800 with my amps, at least not if I wanted the SDA effect. Guess I will stick with regular stereo. :)
    Correct.

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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,250
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    Thanks. Learn something every day.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,327
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    In my past sda \ McIntosh experience, my old integra and sunfire amps played better with the sda's i had . Not saying McIntosh are bad as i have owned several McIntosh pieces over the years and still recommend them to some folks depending on the speakers they are running. I almost suspect the autoformers on the few McIntosh amps I had could have been the culprit. My McIntosh with legacy focus sounded awesome .
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  • Unknown
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  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,427
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    I wonder if having a balanced input to the balanced amps might be the ticket to the best sound from the balanced amps or would it not make a difference?
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 35,562
    edited March 2020
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    I am guessing that there's some conflation goin' on here of balanced signal transmission (separate positive and negative signal lines as well as a ground line, i.e., XLR or TRS cables/connectors) vs. single-ended ('hot' line and a ground, i.e., "RCA" or TS cables/connectors) and single-ended vs. push-pull (complementary) amplifier topologies.

    Typically, preamp stages are single-ended (Class A) and power amplifiers are push-pull (and those, typically a Class AB variant) -- so, to that extent, most of the power amplifiers (not all) that y'all use are 'balanced' -- but not at their inputs and/or outputs.

    Amplifiers traditionally use a "phase splitter" to take the single-ended preamp output and split the signal for the push-pull power amplifier.

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  • Astropet
    Astropet Posts: 25
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    The JC5 is dual mono, but shares a common ground. I use it with my SDA 1A second generation speakers with no issue.

    The type of amps that do not work with SDA are fully balanced or more accurate balanced differential amps. An unbalanced amp can still have balanced inputs, but is not fully balanced from input to output. One way to tell if your amp is fully balanced is if it has balanced pass-through outputs and they only work with the balanced inputs and not the unbalanced inputs. The JC5 is the opposite; it has unbalanced pass-through outputs. This is another way to tell if it is not a fully balanced amp.


    I Also have some xlr splitters and they will only work if both the preamp and the amp are balanced differential. They work with my Ayre V-5XE, but not with the JC5.

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  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,427
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    Astropet wrote: »
    The type of amps that do not work with SDA are fully balanced or more accurate balanced differential amps. An unbalanced amp can still have balanced inputs, but is not fully balanced from input to output. One way to tell if your amp is fully balanced is if it has balanced pass-through outputs and they only work with the balanced inputs and not the unbalanced inputs. The JC5 is the opposite; it has unbalanced pass-through outputs. This is another way to tell if it is not a fully balanced amp.

    This isn't quite true. With the addition of a dreadnaught I've been using fully balanced amps on my sda's with excellent results for a couple years now. There's also a switch on the back of my amps that allow the use of either rca's or balanced connections. Having tried both connections I find the balanced connection coming from my balanced preamp is the one that sounds the best as well as having 3db better snr.

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 52,406
    edited March 2020
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    Astropet wrote: »
    The JC5 is dual mono, but shares a common ground. I use it with my SDA 1A second generation speakers with no issue.

    The type of amps that do not work with SDA are fully balanced or more accurate balanced differential amps. An unbalanced amp can still have balanced inputs, but is not fully balanced from input to output. One way to tell if your amp is fully balanced is if it has balanced pass-through outputs and they only work with the balanced inputs and not the unbalanced inputs. The JC5 is the opposite; it has unbalanced pass-through outputs. This is another way to tell if it is not a fully balanced amp.

    Vintage pin/blade SDA's can use any amp or amps in conjunction with the AI-1 or Dreadnought.

    The L800 can use any amp or amps except balanced differential types.

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  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 523
    edited March 2020
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    I got confirmation from Parasound their JC5 topology will work with SDA.
    • Living Room Music-2.1 Polk Legend L800 | SVS SB1000Pro | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Marantz HD-CD1 | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Pro USB to DAC
    • Home Theater-9.7.6/15.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x6], Height LSiM703 [x6], HSU ULS-15Mk2x4, VTF-15HMk2x2, VTF-TN1 | Trinnov Altitude 16+4 (2024) | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Martin Logan MP500x2 | Topping DX7s, E50 | AppleTV 4K | Zidoo Z9X | JVC RS2100 | 150” Elite Screen Acoustic Pro UHD
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Sony UBP-X800 | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.1 B&W Formation Duo and Bass
    • Daughter's Gaming Rig-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX | Martin Logan Forte
    • Orphans DSW microPRO3000x2 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz AV8805A
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | SMSL DO100 Pro 2 | Pass ACA v1.6 Monoblocks
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Sansui FR-1080 | Fire TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
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  • Unknown
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  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 523
    edited March 2020
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    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I have never been impressed with the McIntosh setups I have heard either, except when paired with the bigger Magnepans…

    Hi John,

    My first exposure to McIntosh was in the 80's at an uncle's house where he had a Mac stack with Ohm Walsh Fs, he was playing Madonna. I was so impress with the sound. At the time I was only a kid and our main home system was a Fisher. Since then I've been looking at ways to improve the sound of the music I am into. Later on I used to hang around the public library reading stereo magazines and on the front cover of one which struck me was Matthew Polk in a lab coat with an SDA speaker. The rest is history and a lifetime of Polk speakers and a McIntosh combo.
    • Living Room Music-2.1 Polk Legend L800 | SVS SB1000Pro | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Marantz HD-CD1 | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Pro USB to DAC
    • Home Theater-9.7.6/15.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x6], Height LSiM703 [x6], HSU ULS-15Mk2x4, VTF-15HMk2x2, VTF-TN1 | Trinnov Altitude 16+4 (2024) | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Martin Logan MP500x2 | Topping DX7s, E50 | AppleTV 4K | Zidoo Z9X | JVC RS2100 | 150” Elite Screen Acoustic Pro UHD
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Sony UBP-X800 | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.1 B&W Formation Duo and Bass
    • Daughter's Gaming Rig-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX | Martin Logan Forte
    • Orphans DSW microPRO3000x2 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz AV8805A
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | SMSL DO100 Pro 2 | Pass ACA v1.6 Monoblocks
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Sansui FR-1080 | Fire TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,972
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    mpitogo wrote: »
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I have never been impressed with the McIntosh setups I have heard either, except when paired with the bigger Magnepans…

    Hi John,

    My first exposure to McIntosh was in the 80's at an uncle's house where he had a Mac stack with Ohm Walsh Fs, he was playing Madonna. I was so impress with the sound. At the time I was only a kid and our main home system was a Fisher. Since then I've been looking at ways to improve the sound of the music I am into. Later on I used to hang around the public library reading stereo magazines and on the front cover of one which struck me was Matthew Polk in a lab coat with an SDA speaker. The rest is history and a lifetime of Polk speakers and a McIntosh combo.

    so you're saying that if Amar Bose had been on that cover you would now have Bose speakers :D
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
    Puritan PSM156
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  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 523
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    Maybe...glad it was Polk.
    • Living Room Music-2.1 Polk Legend L800 | SVS SB1000Pro | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Marantz HD-CD1 | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Pro USB to DAC
    • Home Theater-9.7.6/15.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x6], Height LSiM703 [x6], HSU ULS-15Mk2x4, VTF-15HMk2x2, VTF-TN1 | Trinnov Altitude 16+4 (2024) | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Martin Logan MP500x2 | Topping DX7s, E50 | AppleTV 4K | Zidoo Z9X | JVC RS2100 | 150” Elite Screen Acoustic Pro UHD
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Sony UBP-X800 | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.1 B&W Formation Duo and Bass
    • Daughter's Gaming Rig-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX | Martin Logan Forte
    • Orphans DSW microPRO3000x2 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz AV8805A
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | SMSL DO100 Pro 2 | Pass ACA v1.6 Monoblocks
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Sansui FR-1080 | Fire TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
    · Share on Facebook
  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,315
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    ptrooper wrote: »
    50 hours in. Starting to relax in place. They definitely need something to stop the forward and back rocking. These rubber spike protectors are to soft 5sdntumibqn1.jpeg
    cc1297dyr5r1.jpeg

    For the size of those babies, I think they look great in your space!


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  • ptrooper
    ptrooper Posts: 730
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    Thanks Mike,They sure fill the whole room very nicely and the miss's absolutely loves them =Me winning sneaking them into place.
    I can stand directly to the side of them and still here the opposite speaker!
    Mike Reeter wrote: »
    ptrooper wrote: »
    50 hours in. Starting to relax in place. They definitely need something to stop the forward and back rocking. These rubber spike protectors are to soft 5sdntumibqn1.jpeg
    cc1297dyr5r1.jpeg

    For the size of those babies, I think they look great in your space!


    VR3 SDA SRS 1.2TL Duelund Monoliths+VR31000va Dreadnaught +VR3 MM2 SDA cable, <3 ,Lumin u2x ,<-sfp fibre <-LHYas8 Pro+ Switch,Transparent Reference MM2 xlr,power and speaker cables.FTA Sinope SE usb.40 Amp power line for amp with earth stake&Faraday shield ,20 Amp power line for digital equipment ->shunyata 8 venom power board...Working on it!
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  • ptrooper
    ptrooper Posts: 730
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    GAIA 2’s. Does any one know the thread size needed on the L800.looks like M10 ,Isoacoustic should supply these.
    VR3 SDA SRS 1.2TL Duelund Monoliths+VR31000va Dreadnaught +VR3 MM2 SDA cable, <3 ,Lumin u2x ,<-sfp fibre <-LHYas8 Pro+ Switch,Transparent Reference MM2 xlr,power and speaker cables.FTA Sinope SE usb.40 Amp power line for amp with earth stake&Faraday shield ,20 Amp power line for digital equipment ->shunyata 8 venom power board...Working on it!
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,972
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    I would call isoacoustics as being that close to the weight limit of the gaia 2, they might suggest the gaia 1
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
    Puritan PSM156
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  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited March 2020
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 52,406
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    Polk typically used 1/4-20 threads, but I think some of the newer stuff is 6mm.
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