Looking forward to L800 but have concerns, what are your thoughts?

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Comments

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,595
    mpitogo wrote: »
    F1Nut. Please call Scott Orth or Stu Lumdnsen. Scott personally told me of the SDA power amp recommendations after I bought them. They can’t pull a proper signal from a balanced amplifier. Its likely also why they demo with Marantz single ended amps or the PM-KI Ruby because they are not balanced. My Marantz PM-10 also did not produce the SDA effect to its fullest. But the PM-10/SA-10 is absolutely rocking on my older 707s?

    If the PM/SA stack worked with the L800 i would have run with them. The combo is amazing.

    F1nut wrote: »
    I heard the SDA magic when they were run off a Marantz pre pro and amp. Maybe it's the Mac that's lacking.

    What is your proper amp recommendation for the L800? Maybe Parasound Halo A21+? I heard good things about parasound.

    I said a Marantz pre pro and amp. I never said anything about the PM10.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    @F1nut are you suggesting the McIntosh amps are inferior even though the Marantz PM-10 produce the same results with SDA?

    Apologies if I’m beating a dead horse but I’m responding to baseless comments.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,317
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!
  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    edited March 2020
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    ptrooper wrote: »
    verb wrote: »
    Congrats @ptrooper on acquiring a set of L800's! I'm still coveting a set myself! :smile:


    Come on buddy, you can do it. Don't let the team down :p

    Exactly how I feel! My birthday is not for a few months. :wink:
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  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,026
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    I thought I had heard that to and for that reason I didn't dare to try my dual mono Proton d1200 on my sda's for a long time. It turned out I heard wrong and that 1200 paired up quite well with my sda's.
  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    I thought I had heard that to and for that reason I didn't dare to try my dual mono Proton d1200 on my sda's for a long time. It turned out I heard wrong and that 1200 paired up quite well with my sda's.

    I think the Dual Mono issue has more to do with the new L800's...maybe ;)

  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,317
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    Yep true but both have balanced inputs. Maybe neither work work as well with SDA.
    I know with my SDA's and dreadnought the JC5 would work just fine. It just wouldn't work well with my bank account.
  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    Yep true but both have balanced inputs. Maybe neither work work as well with SDA.
    I know with my SDA's and dreadnought the JC5 would work just fine. It just wouldn't work well with my bank account.

    I hear ya, would love to try the JC5 as well! But I can't stand tariff, especially after the past couple of weeks :#

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,595
    mpitogo wrote: »
    @F1nut are you suggesting the McIntosh amps are inferior even though the Marantz PM-10 produce the same results with SDA?

    Apologies if I’m beating a dead horse but I’m responding to baseless comments.

    Nothing baseless about my comments. The problem is you have an issue with reading comprehension.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,317
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    I thought I had heard that to and for that reason I didn't dare to try my dual mono Proton d1200 on my sda's for a long time. It turned out I heard wrong and that 1200 paired up quite well with my sda's.

    I think the Dual Mono issue has more to do with the new L800's...maybe ;)

    From my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong. The issue is a balanced architecture does something to the SDA signal. Balanced has an in phase and out of phase signal so it takes away from the SDA side.
  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    I thought I had heard that to and for that reason I didn't dare to try my dual mono Proton d1200 on my sda's for a long time. It turned out I heard wrong and that 1200 paired up quite well with my sda's.

    I think the Dual Mono issue has more to do with the new L800's...maybe ;)

    From my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong. The issue is a balanced architecture does something to the SDA signal. Balanced has an in phase and out of phase signal so it takes away from the SDA side.

    There you go, sounds reasonable to me :)

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,595
    edited March 2020
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well if the L800's were sitting in my house, I wouldn't waste time on the A21+. It would be JC5 all the way!!

    The JC5 is a Dual Mono Design. I seem to have read something about that mix not working well?

    Could very be wrong though, I'd love to have a JC5 to power my SDA's.

    I thought I had heard that to and for that reason I didn't dare to try my dual mono Proton d1200 on my sda's for a long time. It turned out I heard wrong and that 1200 paired up quite well with my sda's.

    I think the Dual Mono issue has more to do with the new L800's...maybe ;)

    From my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong. The issue is a balanced architecture does something to the SDA signal. Balanced has an in phase and out of phase signal so it takes away from the SDA side.

    100% correct. A "regular" dual mono amp or mono blocks are fine to use with the L800's.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    I thought a regular stereo amp fell into the balanced category. What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 24,906
    edited March 2020
    Balanced Audio Technologies... :p

    My gut tells me that if the amp features XLR on the back, you need to investigate the topology of said amp.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    BlueFox wrote: »
    What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Pass X600.5 ;)
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    FTGV wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Pass X600.5 ;)

    I would think they fall into the mono block category.
    F1nut wrote: »
    100% correct. A "regular" dual mono amp or mono blocks are fine to use with the L800's.


    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2020
    BlueFox wrote: »
    FTGV wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    What is a balanced amp? Examples.
    Pass X600.5 ;)

    I would think they fall into the mono block category.

    While they are mono blocks , they are also a balanced design. Pass calls it SuperSymmetry . Stereo or mono blocks can be balanced/bridged designs.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    So, I can’t use the L800 with my amps, at least not if I wanted the SDA effect. Guess I will stick with regular stereo. :)
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    BlueFox wrote: »
    So, I can’t use the L800 with my amps, at least not if I wanted the SDA effect. Guess I will stick with regular stereo. :)
    Correct.

  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Thanks. Learn something every day.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,263
    In my past sda \ McIntosh experience, my old integra and sunfire amps played better with the sda's i had . Not saying McIntosh are bad as i have owned several McIntosh pieces over the years and still recommend them to some folks depending on the speakers they are running. I almost suspect the autoformers on the few McIntosh amps I had could have been the culprit. My McIntosh with legacy focus sounded awesome .
    Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300, Audioquest Thunderbird Zero Speaker Cable, Tyler Highland H2, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 24,906
    I have never been impressed with the McIntosh setups I have heard either, except when paired with the bigger Magnepans…
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,026
    I wonder if having a balanced input to the balanced amps might be the ticket to the best sound from the balanced amps or would it not make a difference?
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,766
    edited March 2020
    I am guessing that there's some conflation goin' on here of balanced signal transmission (separate positive and negative signal lines as well as a ground line, i.e., XLR or TRS cables/connectors) vs. single-ended ('hot' line and a ground, i.e., "RCA" or TS cables/connectors) and single-ended vs. push-pull (complementary) amplifier topologies.

    Typically, preamp stages are single-ended (Class A) and power amplifiers are push-pull (and those, typically a Class AB variant) -- so, to that extent, most of the power amplifiers (not all) that y'all use are 'balanced' -- but not at their inputs and/or outputs.

    Amplifiers traditionally use a "phase splitter" to take the single-ended preamp output and split the signal for the push-pull power amplifier.

  • Astropet
    Astropet Posts: 25
    The JC5 is dual mono, but shares a common ground. I use it with my SDA 1A second generation speakers with no issue.

    The type of amps that do not work with SDA are fully balanced or more accurate balanced differential amps. An unbalanced amp can still have balanced inputs, but is not fully balanced from input to output. One way to tell if your amp is fully balanced is if it has balanced pass-through outputs and they only work with the balanced inputs and not the unbalanced inputs. The JC5 is the opposite; it has unbalanced pass-through outputs. This is another way to tell if it is not a fully balanced amp.


    I Also have some xlr splitters and they will only work if both the preamp and the amp are balanced differential. They work with my Ayre V-5XE, but not with the JC5.

  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,026
    Astropet wrote: »
    The type of amps that do not work with SDA are fully balanced or more accurate balanced differential amps. An unbalanced amp can still have balanced inputs, but is not fully balanced from input to output. One way to tell if your amp is fully balanced is if it has balanced pass-through outputs and they only work with the balanced inputs and not the unbalanced inputs. The JC5 is the opposite; it has unbalanced pass-through outputs. This is another way to tell if it is not a fully balanced amp.

    This isn't quite true. With the addition of a dreadnaught I've been using fully balanced amps on my sda's with excellent results for a couple years now. There's also a switch on the back of my amps that allow the use of either rca's or balanced connections. Having tried both connections I find the balanced connection coming from my balanced preamp is the one that sounds the best as well as having 3db better snr.

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,595
    edited March 2020
    Astropet wrote: »
    The JC5 is dual mono, but shares a common ground. I use it with my SDA 1A second generation speakers with no issue.

    The type of amps that do not work with SDA are fully balanced or more accurate balanced differential amps. An unbalanced amp can still have balanced inputs, but is not fully balanced from input to output. One way to tell if your amp is fully balanced is if it has balanced pass-through outputs and they only work with the balanced inputs and not the unbalanced inputs. The JC5 is the opposite; it has unbalanced pass-through outputs. This is another way to tell if it is not a fully balanced amp.

    Vintage pin/blade SDA's can use any amp or amps in conjunction with the AI-1 or Dreadnought.

    The L800 can use any amp or amps except balanced differential types.

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,317
    mpitogo wrote: »
    I got confirmation from Parasound their JC5 topology will work with SDA.

    I knew it would work with my SDA's.
    I just need to win a lotto and I'm all set.