Looking forward to L800 but have concerns, what are your thoughts?

1131416181923

Comments

  • halen
    halen Posts: 674
    edited February 2020
    Never said high watts and high current would equal synergy either, but it does sound like a good place to start... As far as commenting goes, I will say what I like. I don’t agree with every review or magazine I read either, nor do I trust anybody else’s ears but my own.

    I especially don’t trust ears that heard a pair of speakers not set up properly, according to the suggestions and guidelines of the manufacturer and have at best, a couple hours (and less time in the sweet spot) of experience with them in an unfamiliar space.

    You mentioned synergy in your previous posts. So I thought I would mention to get clarity.

    Yes. Say what you like but it is still baseless assumptions. You have a voice but don’t talk when you have not experienced it. It gives zero credibility. You could talk all day about your high end DIY amp among other things. It contributes absolutely nothing.

    Buy a pair man.
  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    @Viking64 yikes missed it, I had to leave to go to a Division 2 raid.

    One thing for sure at lest with my experience true balanced amplifier + L800 = under performing SDA.

    Even Stu in the other thread eluded to it with the demos using a Marantz PM-KI Ruby, an excellent ncore digital integrated amplifier but single ended not fully balanced like the Marantz PM-10.

    Here is what I wonder to solve for that problem. Can I run both Left/Right amplifier channels to each speaker and isolate the crossovers feeding the main drivers and SDA drivers? The SDA cables carry the respective + signals to each other but carry no return path instead rely on the common ground of a single-ended design. If I can feed discrete balanced differential to each of the isolated SDA crossover I can achieve nirvana.

    Balanced amplifier one +signal push amplifier two -signal pull no shared common grounding plane
    Single-ended one amplifier +signal push/pull relative to common ground
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX, DSW microPRO3000 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz HD-CD1
    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 10,996
    halen wrote: »
    Never said high watts and high current would equal synergy either, but it does sound like a good place to start... As far as commenting goes, I will say what I like. I don’t agree with every review or magazine I read either, nor do I trust anybody else’s ears but my own.

    I especially don’t trust ears that heard a pair of speakers not set up properly, according to the suggestions and guidelines of the manufacturer and have at best, a couple hours (and less time in the sweet spot) of experience with them in an unfamiliar space.

    You mentioned synergy in your previous posts. So I thought I would mention to get clarity.

    Yes. Say what you like but it is still baseless assumptions. You have a voice but don’t talk when you have not experienced it. It gives zero credibility. You could talk all day about your high end DIY amp among other things. It contributes absolutely nothing.

    Buy a pair man.

    John's been experiencing "SDA" Polk speakers for decades!

    I think he could be called highly educated in the Polk SDA set-ups and definitely has thousands of hours with listening to them with his own ears in many locations.

    John has tried to offer "advice from experiences" and he is getting attacked for some weird reasons.

    And his DIY amps are something to admire and inspire others just what is possible with the right intelligence and desire.

    I'd take John's advice on Polk SDA speakers and tube amps any day of the year!
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • halen
    halen Posts: 674
    Tony M wrote: »
    halen wrote: »
    Never said high watts and high current would equal synergy either, but it does sound like a good place to start... As far as commenting goes, I will say what I like. I don’t agree with every review or magazine I read either, nor do I trust anybody else’s ears but my own.

    I especially don’t trust ears that heard a pair of speakers not set up properly, according to the suggestions and guidelines of the manufacturer and have at best, a couple hours (and less time in the sweet spot) of experience with them in an unfamiliar space.

    You mentioned synergy in your previous posts. So I thought I would mention to get clarity.

    Yes. Say what you like but it is still baseless assumptions. You have a voice but don’t talk when you have not experienced it. It gives zero credibility. You could talk all day about your high end DIY amp among other things. It contributes absolutely nothing.

    Buy a pair man.

    John's been experiencing "SDA" Polk speakers for decades!

    I think he could be called highly educated in the Polk SDA set-ups and definitely has thousands of hours with listening to them with his own ears in many locations.

    John has tried to offer "advice from experiences" and he is getting attacked for some weird reasons.

    And his DIY amps are something to admire and inspire others just what is possible with the right intelligence and desire.

    I'd take John's advice on Polk SDA speakers and tube amps any day of the year!

    You do realize these are new SDA’s right? Your comment is like someone saying some car built some decades ago was great. So it must be great now too.

    Tell me. What experience does he have with the new SDA’s? I got money, any amount you want to put down and could afford. He doesnt.

    As for you being John‘s personal public relations person is funny. CNN much?
  • halen
    halen Posts: 674
    Also since you are his spokesperson. I was going to say spokesman. But it may offend you jelly beans.

    You want me to pull up his posts on SDA’s when he first joined? Lol.
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 10,996
    Why are there teachers and professors then?
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited February 2020
    Are you trying to say nooshinjohn is the equivalent of a teacher or professor? LOL. What school is that? :)
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • halen
    halen Posts: 674
    edited February 2020
    Alright. Bottom line. Don’t turn this Polk forum into one of those sites that claim amps, dacs, cables, make no difference.

    They never experienced it. Same as the new SDA here. But the ones that have. Said what they did.

    Even the Polk rep.

    Damn. If I talk anymore I will start talking about build the wall. You effing socialist.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,573
    I experienced it and it wasn't like the experience at Skip's event.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • halen
    halen Posts: 674
    Are you John F1? If not. This doesn’t apply to you.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,573
    Give it a rest Halen.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 24,895
    halen wrote: »
    Also since you are his spokesperson. I was going to say spokesman. But it may offend you jelly beans.

    You want me to pull up his posts on SDA’s when he first joined? Lol.

    My first pair of SDA were 2b’s I got while it was in the Marines in 1987, and I had them for about ten years. I also had a set of SRS in 1990 or thereabouts, which my ex wife destroyed.

    No SDA again until I joined the god forsaken hellhole, and then it was a set of 1c’s, SRS 1.2 TL’s, 2.3TL’s, a couple pairs of Maggies, and now my current set of 1.2TL’s. I knew nothing of the mods and upgrades when I joined, but I learned fast.

    While I cannot speak to the sound of the current crop, I do know how SDA is supposed to sound, and my experience with the L200 does and a bit of context.

    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • halen
    halen Posts: 674
    edited February 2020
    Tell John to and I will.

    If you tell me the new SDA’s are same or better than the old ones. I don’t know which model.

    I will buy it. Right now.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,573
    Fine, both of you give it a rest and thank you.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • halen
    halen Posts: 674
    edited February 2020
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,573
    Looking into the Edge integrated amp I found this information and have to wonder if the topology, like the Marantz PM10 is not a good match with the L800.
    We completely removed all the capacitors from the signal path and instead introduced a DC coupled topology to the board. We decided that capacitors needed to be removed from the signal path, simply because they can be responsible for adding more distortion and colour than many other components. This technology prevents the delivery of DC to your speakers by using dedicated servos to inject equal and opposite amounts of DC, therefore eliminating it completely. With this improvement though, the signal is incredibly clean and concise, vastly reducing colouration.

    Class XA is our proprietary amplification system which combines the best of Class A and Class AB amplification, delivering the sound quality of a Class A amp while retaining the efficiency of a Class AB amp. Class XA differs by adding voltage to a traditional Class AB design, shifting the crossover point to a position where the audio distortion is not audible to the human ear.

    Thoughts....comments on the above?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Not sure. If the amp delivers an AC signal, irrespective of its method, the speaker should reproduce it.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 24,895
    edited February 2020
    halen wrote: »
    Tell John to and I will.

    If you tell me the new SDA’s are same or better than the old ones. I don’t know which model.

    I will buy it. Right now.
    Somehow I doubt they are... on that we can agree.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,573
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Not sure. If the amp delivers an AC signal, irrespective of its method, the speaker should reproduce it.

    The PM10 uses a dual differential balanced topology, which does not work well with the L800, so topology definitely matters.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 24,895
    F1nut wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Not sure. If the amp delivers an AC signal, irrespective of its method, the speaker should reproduce it.

    The PM10 uses a dual differential balanced topology, which does not work well with the L800, so topology definitely matters.

    Agreed on that Jesse. Sounds like a more complicated version of the common ground issues from back in the day.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 10,996
    John...Post 22022 ^^^^^^... B)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,756
    edited February 2020
    F1nut wrote: »
    Looking into the Edge integrated amp I found this information and have to wonder if the topology, like the Marantz PM10 is not a good match with the L800.
    We completely removed all the capacitors from the signal path and instead introduced a DC coupled topology to the board. We decided that capacitors needed to be removed from the signal path, simply because they can be responsible for adding more distortion and colour than many other components. This technology prevents the delivery of DC to your speakers by using dedicated servos to inject equal and opposite amounts of DC, therefore eliminating it completely. With this improvement though, the signal is incredibly clean and concise, vastly reducing colouration.

    Class XA is our proprietary amplification system which combines the best of Class A and Class AB amplification, delivering the sound quality of a Class A amp while retaining the efficiency of a Class AB amp. Class XA differs by adding voltage to a traditional Class AB design, shifting the crossover point to a position where the audio distortion is not audible to the human ear.

    Thoughts....comments on the above?

    I agree that capacitors are pretty nonlinear gizmos and best kept out of the signal path if and when possible -- as long as those servos stay balanced, all is well. When they go awry, loudspeakers fry. :(

    A capacitor or transformer is a blunt but very effective tool to keep DC away from loudspeakers. When the budget permits, though, there are good ones. They just ain't cheap. :)

    Now, on topic, I would posit (expert EE that I am -- not ;) ) that the complexity of the circuits as I read that could induce small, frequency-dependent phase shifts that could wreak havoc with the SDA signal handling.

    Just spitballin'.

    EDIT: It may be that the L800 is a good qualitative tool for measuring phase distortion. B)

    PS The last sentence suggests to me that 'Class XA' is a high-bias Class AB :p
    Remember, kids: if they don't call it Class A -- it ain't Class A.
    ;)
  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    contrats @ptrooper hope you enjoy them!

    Interesting read on the capacitors in the amplifier, while going into the speakers there are massive capacitors in the passive xover.
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX, DSW microPRO3000 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz HD-CD1
    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    ptrooper wrote: »
    Well ,I hope they work well with a recapped sunfire sig series 625x 2 or a theatre gand signiture 5x 405 as i'll have a set in black in around 7 days .
    There will be an oppo 105D bluray /pre amp with the Joe Rasmussen 4.2 ABC signiture upgrades, this has no capacitors inline via the output stage, cabling via transparent reference xl balanced cables to a Sunfire Signiture ,from there with transparent reference biwire speaker cables to the L800's
    The room will be 18ft x 15ft....L800's will be 4 ft apart with reinforced side walls which are also only 4 ft away, the rear brick wall is a 9 ft wide partition at the same height as the L800's , i'll be trying to keep them around 5 inch's or under infront of this wall,behind this partition is another 18 ft x 15 ft room being a dining/kitchen so a good possibility a few hard surfaces might need treating .It'l be better explained with pics l8er.
    Time will tell
    The Vr3 Abbot CRS + 4.1's will now be doing rear duties in the theatre room.
    Exciting stuff .
    Hope the australian english can be followed.
    cheers Sean

    Congrats man! Another Member who is actually going to own a pair!

  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,947
    Good on you, ptrooper!
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 24,895
    Just speculation on my part, but I wonder what influence the massive power port firing out the bottom has on the imaging issues everyone talks about with the L800. From my experience with the L200, there was a bunch of sound coming from the back.

    I have never heard a set of SDA have the difficulties the new ones are said to have, and the major functional difference is that port.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,573
    VR3 wrote: »
    Between the angled baffle, dual tweeters, higher frequency sda channel and the dedicated bass section with a power port... There are minimal similarities between the L800 and any sda speakers other than the core technology

    Yep
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk