Best speaker wire

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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 12,970
    audioluvr wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Wires shouldn't be breaking in. They should how they are going to sound from the factory.
    Wire, the metal conductor part of a cable, does not break in

    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.

    I agree with this, and I certainly feel it produces an audible result.

    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,635
    edited January 2019
    Jstas wrote: »

    Insulation is supposed to prevent interference with signal transmission. If it is coloring the signal then that is a problem.

    Wire insulation that has dielectric properties strong enough to create signal abnormalities that manifest in audible manners is undesirable insulation.

    All insulation is going to have an effect of some sort but to deliberately choose a material for insulation that has a dielectric property that creates force of any kind on the signal path is the exact opposite of what a wire should be doing.

    You are correct that wire insulation that has dielectric properties strong enough to create signal abnormalities that manifest in audible manners is undesirable insulation.

    The problem with the best dielectric materials is that they are impractical or prohibitively expensive for mass production. This is why telecommunications companies have spent so much time (decades) and money (billions) researching cable insulation materials that have a good trade-off among cost, ease of manufacturing, ease of installation, and ease of maintenance.

    The best dielectric is vacuum (dielectric constant of 1). Second best is air (dielectric constant of 1.00059). Then we get into the better polymer dielectrics like Teflon (dielectric constant of 2.1, cost $3-$10 per pound). Dielectric performance diminishes after after vacuum, air, and Teflon, although polyethylene is close to Teflon with a dielectric constant of 2.25 (cost ~ $1.30 per pound).

    Vacuum and air are essentially "free", but maintaining a vacuum enclosure and an air enclosure costs some time, effort, and $$$$.

    My AudioQuest Sky Gen 2 interconnects use large Teflon tubes filled with air to insulate the silver wire conductors. My AudioQuest Everest speaker cables use carbon-loaded polyethylene insulation around the silver wire conductors. In addition to the low dielectric constant wire insulation, the insulation has a Dielectric Bias system to keep a static electric charge on it to further reduce energy absorption and dispersion.
    audioluvr wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Wires shouldn't be breaking in. They should how they are going to sound from the factory.
    Wire, the metal conductor part of a cable, does not break in

    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.

    Electrons take the path of least resistance already present in a conductor. They do not create a path of least resistance. Molecular motion and random electron motion actually impede current flow.

    Unless the current is high enough to heat up the wire, the conductive crystal metallic structure of a wire is not going to change over time due to a current flowing through it. Electrons do not "chip away" at metallic obstructions in a conductor the way that water "chips away" the sides of a river bank.

    The way a wire is drawn, milled, polished, twisted, and formulated can affect the sound. A wire can have better conductivity in one direction than the other. But again, these things do not change with time and amount of use.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • mdaudioguymdaudioguy Posts: 5,135
    tonyb wrote: »
    Don't you boys get me started on wine. :)

    Actually I can relate wine to the thread topic...
    Yeah, thanks man. Saved me a buncha typing. I was just too lazy, so went with, All red wines taste the same... :p
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,635
    I would love to see your analysis on the effects of high performance audio cables on entry-level AVR’s, DVD players and speakers.... should make for a fun read. :p

    That's something I'll investigate in the future...when I am more dedicated to audio than I am now.

    In the meantime, you should go over to one of those popular anti-audiophile forums where it has already been scientifically proved with quadruple blind testing that all cables sound alike.

    I will tell you though, that even back in my college days of Bose speakers, Kenwood speakers, Cerwin Vega speakers, Baby Advent speakers, Kenwood receivers, Sony receivers, cheap Sony turntables, and cheap Shure cartridges, I could hear a big difference between zip cord and Monster speaker cable and between those flimsy, spaghetti-string stock interconnects and Monster InterLink interconnects.

    xpmhdilc97dm.jpg
    Nostalgia! At left, a pair of Monster Cable InterLink 400 interconnects that I purchased for my first nice stereo system in the late 1980s ($30, for 1 meter pair). At right is a spare pair of AudioQuest Sky Generation 2 interconnects ($2900). Thirty dollar cables was really, really, expensive compared to the free cables that came with gear.

    I usually don't sell interconnects that were in my system for a while. Sometimes I buy cables out of curiosity, but I quickly resell those after evaluating them. I have three different levels of Monster interconnects (and a few other brands) that I use in cable performance demonstrations.

    Over the years, I came to understand that cables were another important component in the music chain, rather than just mere "wire".


    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • delkaldelkal Posts: 659
    tonyb wrote: »
    Some say wine, like cables, gets better as you move up in price points. It does...

    This is the reasoning I don't like and is probably why people discount the fact that cables don't matter. There comes a point where the improvements you hear is more because of marketing, a fancy pseudoscience buzz word, and the fact that if people pay a lot for something they believe it sounds better. Think $14,000 jumpers.

    For the record I am cable believer..........I heard it. BUT, Does anyone wonder why they price cables the way they do. Look at Audioquest. They have a price range for every budget and at least a 1000x range in price. Do you think they pay 1000x more manufacturing the cable? They all use basically the same components.

    Add to that all of the different cable designs by the different companies. (solid wire, litz, pure, monocrystalline and silver, even silver plated). Each line claims to have the best sound and will always have improvements if you work up their line and pay enough.

    So you can design a cable with any design or different components under the sun.........And in all cases the more expensive cables always sound better? This is the part where I call BS.
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 22,411
    edited January 2019
    There are wires designed for very specific and mission-critical applications used in aerospace for example, that must meet very specialized criteria, and are extremely expensive to design and manufacture. I can assure you that not all components are basically the same.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Krell Evolution 505 SACD Player, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 11,043
    Cardas has some crazy machines that they spend quite the coin keeping maintained that contributes to the different cable geometry's they manufacturer.

    Ray Kimber would bring one of his cable making machines every once in awhile to RMAF...very cool to see
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 12,970
    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.

    I disagree here. At the atomic level, any atom behavior is theoretical. My personal feeling is, at least for cables, atoms in wire are random until they are exposed to an electrical current. If the current is constant then they will align to allow the current to pass with least resistance. This result is audible if the associated gear is adequate.

    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • PSOVLSKPSOVLSK Posts: 4,181
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.

    I disagree here. At the atomic level, any atom behavior is theoretical. My personal feeling is, at least for cables, atoms in wire are random until they are exposed to an electrical current. If the current is constant then they will align to allow the current to pass with least resistance. This result is audible if the associated gear is adequate.

    You guys are getting so over my head. :D:(
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 10,610
    Shut up, Paul...
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 15,953
    edited January 2019
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.

    I disagree here. At the atomic level, any atom behavior is theoretical. My personal feeling is, at least for cables, atoms in wire are random until they are exposed to an electrical current. If the current is constant then they will align to allow the current to pass with least resistance. This result is audible if the associated gear is adequate.

    You guys are getting so over my head. :D:(

    Only cause you're 3'2" with a 10" deck
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 10,610
    Nope... I've met pishvolks... Strait up guy when he stands at 3'1"....

  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 1,980
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.
    My personal feeling is...

    Uh. That science is hooey?
    One foot on audio nirvana and the other in the poor house.
  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 11,043
    edited January 2019
    lightman1 wrote: »
    Nope... I've met pishvolks... Strait up guy when he stands at 3'1"....


    What's funnier (if thats a word FU I'm from TX)....he sounds more country than anyone at LSAF....and lives in the country...but never owned a pair of boots :/

    And yeah...he's got a big deck...He lives in TX
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,635
    audioluvr wrote: »
    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I disagree here. At the atomic level, any atom behavior is theoretical. My personal feeling is, at least for cables, atoms in wire are random until they are exposed to an electrical current. If the current is constant then they will align to allow the current to pass with least resistance. This result is audible if the associated gear is adequate.

    Does this theoretical alignment and improved conductivity in the metal wire persist after the current is removed? If it does, then that would be an example of wire breaking in.

    If the theorized alignment does not persist in the absence of external force (current, electric field), then that would not be an example of break in.

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 10,610
    At what point in y'alls life did you forget how to live?
    Seems that there are are those here that might offer most of us planes an insight.
  • PSOVLSKPSOVLSK Posts: 4,181
    I guess if I owned a pair of boots I might be 3'2".

    Ron, to make it even funnier (yeah, it's a word), I lived in the city for over 25 years with this Texas drawl.
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
  • HermitismHermitism Posts: 2,929
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    I guess if I owned a pair of boots I might be 3'2".
    I can hook you up with a pair of size 11. No charge for the toe jam.

  • I change my speaker wire every time I change my speakers. From amp to drivers with least resistance possible from connections, if any copper connections silver plated. I feel an upgraded tweeters capacitor has great benefits per pound in the amp to loudspeaker driver's line. Low indulgence speaker wire seems to be best for me
  • I must add the benefits to getting loudspeaker crossover out of the cabinets and as close to the amp as possible. It's cleared up sound in every system I have done this to.

    Doing this may have added cost with the extra run of wires yet a lot of people have bi-wire cabling (unfortunately without bi-amping) so it makes more sense to me to try it out.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,529
    edited January 2019

    Re-edited for content, sorry.

    First off, going back to the day of my RT800's and the opening of the rabbit hole. I went over to my mom's a few weeks ago and she said..."Do you have any need for this speaker wire" I set up a pair of bookies for her a long while ago and used my old monster cable..she has since re-arranged her living room minus the speakers....talk about a flashback.

    Anyway, this is where it started. I received a great deal at the time on some AQ Crystal and that transformed my system, this happened back in approx 1998.

    qsqhjreex62m.jpg

    3vht8lcm4qhh.jpg

    I've since moved on from the AQ but made me an instant believer.


    I meant to post this video in another thread a ways back. I was going to get a more controlled test with better recording gear but I've had this video sitting around so I figure why not.

    Sorry, but this goes off topic but still a cable thread, forgive me.

    During an older discussion of power cords, I swapped my AC-5's from the source, pre, and amp...to the stock cords. At the time I also tried a blue fuse in the preamp.

    You can't hear much difference in the fuse in the recording, but I can clearly hear the difference in the power cords, even using headphones on my smartphone.

    This is a track I'm very familiar with and the difference was noticeable. The track is "Don't Give Up" In my gear, Kate Bush's vocals have gone from just smooth and high to having a good bit of soul.

    The entire track sounds different, but given my recording gear at the time, the two lyrics to focus on are "somewhere" and "place", the "o" in somewhere, the "a" in place. The "a" actually sounds like "ay".

    Stock cords sound flat with very small rise in pitch.

    AC-5's bring out the distinct rising pitch and the air in her voice.

    I tried to convince myself that the stock cords sounded good when I hear the video, but they are quickly trumped by the upgraded cords.

    Just some fun, but I want to say it kinda has some merit here.



  • verbverb Posts: 9,817
    audioluvr wrote: »
    I would have to disagree here. Just like a river. Atoms, molecules and electrons can and will move ever so slightly to create the path of least resistance.
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I disagree here. At the atomic level, any atom behavior is theoretical. My personal feeling is, at least for cables, atoms in wire are random until they are exposed to an electrical current. If the current is constant then they will align to allow the current to pass with least resistance. This result is audible if the associated gear is adequate.

    Does this theoretical alignment and improved conductivity in the metal wire persist after the current is removed? If it does, then that would be an example of wire breaking in.

    If the theorized alignment does not persist in the absence of external force (current, electric field), then that would not be an example of break in.

    I've learned to respect, and trust, the opinions and experience, of others on this forum.

    As most of you, I started out with lamp cord (moved away from 22 gauge wire), or equivalent. Currently running MIT T2's on most of my rigs, based on recommendations from members of this group.

    Moving on to IC's now, and eventually power cords. And for this newbie's ears, I've heard the differences.

    Yes I was skeptical at first, but what the heck, decided to give it a try.

    That's the wonderful thing about this hobby - when you notice an improvement, you say to yourself, wow, that does make a difference!

    And the journey continues! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS,Cary SLP-05 Pre,Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport,Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC,Cambridge 851N streamer,Marantz SA-14 SACD,McIntosh MC300 Amp,Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable,Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner,Pangea Power Cables,Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's,MIT Shotgun S3 IC's,MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC,EAR Acute CD Player,EAR 834L Pre,Northstar Designs Intenso DAC,PASS ACA Monoblocks,Denon UDR-F10 Cassette,Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers,SVS SB12 Plus sub,MIT AVt2 speaker cables,IFI Purifier2,AQ Cinnamon USB cable,Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks,Tisbury Mini Passive Pre,Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38),Analysis Plus Oval 9's,Zu Jumpers,AudioEngine B1 Streamer,Klipsch RB-61 v2,SVS PB1000 sub,Blue Jeans RCA IC's
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated,Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer,Rotel RCD-1072 CD player,Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner,Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers,Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
  • StewartHolmes83StewartHolmes83 Posts: 20
    edited January 2019
    Shielded power cables and mains filters have just recently transformed the sound and visual on any of my set ups.

    I will not start a set up anywhere without them getting involved. Both hifi and DJ equipment.

    I personally have to change other things in speaker crossover again so am sure I will always start with those.

    I find greatest benefit from budget gear. Although I have upgraded internal power supplies in the equipment tested.

    20+ years of self confessed ignorance 🤫 not like I didn't want to try or believe, just never bothered, how wrong I was.

    I even goe as far as direct lead to internal power supply, silver solder, silver/gold plated plug pins, Russell Andrews wall sockets. It may be worthy as I upgrade Amps/players in future.

    Power leads and conditioners give better picture quality on TVs too, more so older electronics in general
  • gdphotogdphoto Posts: 151
    edited January 2019
    Call me crazy, but after only 8 hours these new Furez 12/4's have smoothed out nicely. They started sounding better after only 4 hours. They were very bright sounding like listening to an early CD. Fatiguing. I was quit disappointed with the results last week. I am much happier now. Thanks for the great input.
    Post edited by gdphoto on
    Hafler DH220 Power amp Recapped
    Hafler DH110 Preamp Recapped
    Hafler Digital FM Tuner
    Virtue Audio M1 Piano CD Player
    Technics SL-1210-MK5 with a Rega Exact Cartridge
    Polk SDA1c's(Rebuilt XO's by Ben) RDO194 Tweeters
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,176
    Two things going on here IMO
    The cables obviously are breaking in and also your ears are getting used to the new sound of these cables as they are different from what you had. In the words of the Matrix “he is starting to believe”
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,205
    Ha Joe....it's a blue or red pill when it comes to cables. :)
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 24,865
    The blue pill?!

    ehu8bd4ua4bw.png

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,176
    Well, buy some cables and You’ll stay in wonderland and I’ll show you just how far the rabbit hole goes down.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 1,980
    Skip,
    Check your PM's
    One foot on audio nirvana and the other in the poor house.
  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 1,980
    These wireworld speaker cables are freaking me out. Detail is superb.
    One foot on audio nirvana and the other in the poor house.
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