Best speaker wire
Comments
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Makes sense.
Hafler DH220 Power amp Recapped
Hafler DH110 Preamp Recapped
Hafler Digital FM Tuner
Virtue Audio M1 Piano CD Player
Technics SL-1210-MK5 with a Rega Exact Cartridge
Polk SDA1c's(Rebuilt XO's by Ben) RDO194 Tweeters -
I bought some Zu audio jumpers and they sent paperwork that stated their wires need a good amount of break in time. So even some wire manufacturers believe it as well.
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Please don't bait other members with snarky comments or post combative replies.
Well ........ that's ..... just ....... great
Sal Palooza -
You lost weight
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The_Polkster wrote: »Allright, boys. I asked Ken to kill the thread. My issue was with how some of you pile on people you don't agree with. Thanks for validating my concerns.
And with that I wish you a happy new year and I'll stay off this forum.
First off, good on you for stepping to the plate and admitting that you requested the thread be closed.
BUT...if you don't like it, can't you just not view the thread??? Also, I honestly haven't seen anything too bad on this thread. I probably had to the most inflammatory post (which really wasn't that bad) and Ken edited it. This has really been one of the most civil cable debates I've seen on the forum.
As much as I generally disagree with K_M on cable matters, I do tend to agree that some people exaggerate the difference cables make. I don't feel this is common, but I've heard people who have gotten new cables describe the difference as something akin to going from Polk R15 speakers to Polk LSiM 703 speakers. Maybe it's true, but I've never experienced anything near that dramatic.
Bottom line: If you can hear a difference in cables, too bad, you're gonna be out a little more cash. If you can't hear a difference, congratulations, you just saved some money.Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
I didn’t hear a difference either until I put the Pass X1 in my rig. In a game where everything matters, sometimes changes in one area expose weakness in others. If you are using a mid-line AVR, a set of Speakers geared more for HT and a dvd/blueray player for a source, you aren’t going to hear much by getting MIT Shotguns.
To hear differences in audio equipment or cables, you need to be using components that are of a level that the typical stuff from Best Buy can’t touch.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Gotta throw my .02 into this, no offense to anyone.
Cable threads are the most confrontational of all audio topics. Please don't even comment if you can't add to the discussion, or at least politely ask questions in the spirit of learning something.
We are all at different points on the audio journey path, and we accept the fact some may not be as knowledgeable as others. It's ok to ask questions, debate, even disagree, but when you do so just to stir the pot, this is where Ken should step in and delete those posts.....not the whole thread.
In my view, this forum has always been about learning, experiencing new things, with a variety of view points and opinions from the vast membership from all walks of life. Much of this audio thing is all about trial and error, individual preferences, a path to better sound. If you don't subscribe to learning, or advancing your knowledge about all things audio related, then you should rethink why your even a member of an audio forum.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Gotta throw my .02 into this, no offense to anyone.
Cable threads are the most confrontational of all audio topics. Please don't even comment if you can't add to the discussion, or at least politely ask questions in the spirit of learning something.
We are all at different points on the audio journey path, and we accept the fact some may not be as knowledgeable as others. It's ok to ask questions, debate, even disagree, but when you do so just to stir the pot, this is where Ken should step in and delete those posts.....not the whole thread.
In my view, this forum has always been about learning, experiencing new things, with a variety of view points and opinions from the vast membership from all walks of life. Much of this audio thing is all about trial and error, individual preferences, a path to better sound. If you don't subscribe to learning, or advancing your knowledge about all things audio related, then you should rethink why your even a member of an audio forum.
But see you entirely miss the point many are making...completely.
But you are not able to even understand what some are trying to get across.
I read some very very verbose and flowery descriptions about cables making some unreal positive change in what a person "says" they hear.
That is fine, but it is obviously exaggeration to a huge degree.
We all know cables can only make a small difference.
That is why it is for most intents there is not much to measure.
It is not based on some magic inventions, it is electric flowing through a conductor, and engineers totally understand how it works. There is simply no magic involved.
The hugely exaggerated claims, (which oddly enough can not be measure not discerned by blind testing conveniently enough) are the actual issue that causes the bickering.
Add in to the mix, that simple human factors such as bias, expectations, post purchase rationalization etc etc factor in, there is nothing reliable, beyond a very well written anecdotal description.
You can not simply give benefit of the doubt to those posts, and then be upset when someone tries to bring some logic to the table, or simply can not wade through all the hyperbole.
You are condescending to say that it is about learning or experience, and at the same time seem completely obtuse to other REAL life factors in play such as expectations, and purchase rationalization being part of it.
If everything matter so much as you are wont to say, then the human factor is right up there also.
You can not have it both ways.
A cable can not make a night and day difference yet be unable to be measured differently nor sussed out in a blind test.
Huge claims require huge proof.
If EVERYTHING matters, you would think that does also.
You can not put out what you "Think" and think the world must live by those rules, but you must not... -
I bought some Zu audio jumpers and they sent paperwork that stated their wires need a good amount of break in time. So even some wire manufacturers believe it as well.
"Break in" coming from a manufacturer means, if you do not hear what you expect to hear right away, they do not want you to return the item.
If you give it time to "Break in" the longer you own them the less likely you will be inclined to return something.
And usually over time, ones feelings of disappointment lessen and you simply do not care as much.
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On Another board I frequent, cable topics are reserved for those who only have something positive to contribute, and usually arguments by naysayers are deleted by mods, as they usually have very little to contribute to the conversation. It’s interesting becuase conversations stay on topic, and we don’t have cable non-believers coming out of the wood work to try to “save us from ourselves”.
I suppose that works when people seek positive reinforcement about a purchase.
I know when I buy something and later read bad reviews. I get upset also. I like to see good things, it gives you that "good warm feeling", and reading something negative makes me not like my purchase as much or have feelings I do not like.
Maybe a good idea, maybe not. -
On Another board I frequent, cable topics are reserved for those who only have something positive to contribute, and usually arguments by naysayers are deleted by mods, as they usually have very little to contribute to the conversation. It’s interesting becuase conversations stay on topic, and we don’t have cable non-believers coming out of the wood work to try to “save us from ourselves”.
I suppose that works when people seek positive reinforcement about a purchase.
I know when I buy something and later read bad reviews. I get upset also. I like to see good things, it gives you that "good warm feeling", and reading something negative makes me not like my purchase as much or have feelings I do not like.
Maybe a good idea, maybe not.
K_M we already have plenty of threads of what your stance is on cable, do we need more?2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I can only speak about my experience and I don't have near the experience of most of you in home audio. I have a low end setup compared to many here, but when I added my Audioquest type 4 speaker cables I noticed a significant difference from the no name speaker wiring I had.
I also recently added a Outlaw 5000 to my Yamaha 2070. I had some cheap no name interconnect cables in the attic I had to use till I got some better interconnects. I recently added AudioQuest Black Mamba II Audio Interconnects to my 3:1 setup and the sound has improved more than I thought it would. Much more open and detailed than before, just a better overall sound. It made a believer out of me as far as the improvement you can get from adding better cables.
I had been little disappointed in the sound after adding the 5000, but thought that hopefully getting better interconnects would allow a true test of the performance of the 5000. Thankfully I was right and now my system sounds much better than before. Now I don't feel like I wasted my money getting the 5000.Yamaha RX-A2070, Musical Fidelity M6si integrated amp, Benchmark Dac1, Bluesound NODE 2i, Audiolab 6000CDT CD Transport, Parasound Zphono USB Phono Preamp, Fluance RT85, Ortofon 2M Bronze, Polk L600's, L400, L900's, RC80i's, SVS 3000 Micro, Audioquest Interconnects and Digital Cables, Nordost Silver Shadow Digital Cable, Cullen Gold and Crossover Series Power Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha 12AWG OCC Speaker Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha Analog Interconnect Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha 11 OCC Custom Power Cable, Signal Power Cable, Furman PL-8C 15 Power Conditioner, Sony 65" 900F, Sony UBP-X700, Fios, Apple TV 4K, Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables. -
txcoastal1 wrote: »On Another board I frequent, cable topics are reserved for those who only have something positive to contribute, and usually arguments by naysayers are deleted by mods, as they usually have very little to contribute to the conversation. It’s interesting becuase conversations stay on topic, and we don’t have cable non-believers coming out of the wood work to try to “save us from ourselves”.
I suppose that works when people seek positive reinforcement about a purchase.
I know when I buy something and later read bad reviews. I get upset also. I like to see good things, it gives you that "good warm feeling", and reading something negative makes me not like my purchase as much or have feelings I do not like.
Maybe a good idea, maybe not.
K_M we already have plenty of threads of what your stance is on cable, do we need more?
That should be sent to me in PM.
Comments of a personal nature, (my posting style) not related to the topic at hand would be better dealt with on a one to one basis.
But I get you want to make your comment seen by many, possibly so they can join in and agree with you or "like" your comment, I really do get how it will make you feel wanted and good.
I get how you guys are, I really do.
It feels great to get agreement, and have others say the same thing. -
It was a question, not to make me feel warm and fuzzy. Do you feel warm and fuzzy when people try to close down threads because they think we are "piling on", when they don't know your history of cable threads?
FYI I can careless about the "like" etc responses, if i cared I would be on facebook
Besides, no one likes me anyway2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I know when I buy something and later read bad reviews. I get upset also. I like to see good things, it gives you that "good warm feeling", and reading something negative makes me not like my purchase as much or have feelings I do not like.
This is very telling.
It's really sad that you would be so easily negatively influenced and swayed by the opinions of others. If you like something you should like, or dislike, it because of your perceptions and experience, not because other people like, or dislike, it too.
The experiences of others can provide some insight, but what really matters is what you hear with your ears, equipment, and room.
It appears that most of your issues have to do with projecting your own insecurities on others. You don't trust your abilities to evaluate sound, therefore you don't trust anyone else's either...unless it is agreed upon by a large group of people.
My pursuit of this hobby is driven by the desire to hear music well played, not by the fear and insecurity that someone, or a lot of people, might say something negative about what I like.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I have read all sides of this and here is my honest opinion:
Speaker wire - when i went from monoprice Am***n cheap speaker cable to my AQ type 4 factory terminated wires (4 sep wires, two per speaker - biamping) , I noticed a difference in the upper registers of the sound - meaning the highs were more defined. No other changes were noticed.
When I swapped out my Monster HT power center to the AQ Thunder/Niagara combo, ALL areas of the sound were changed, imaging, mids, lows, highs and overall power.
To be honest, no other cables and wires have made a large enough difference for me to tell. I have a hard time telling between IC's and the XLR's I have upgraded, along with the power cables (besides the big AQ swap)
Full disclosure I have had too many upgrades in the past few months to be clear about slight changes in sonics between some of the wire upgrades I did, I am not familiar enough with my components yet. But I am sure that if I go ahead with some of the planned upgraded wires I have coming up, I will be familiar enough with all of them to make an honest judgement.
@k_m you make the point of "purchase rationalization" otherwise known as placebo effect. I am sure for some, there is some of this going on, but I will tell you for most audiophiles, we are listening for any sonic benefit added for any $$ spent. I have regretted some of my purchases because of no perceivable change but accepted the end result of these as "win some, lose some"
I have a questions to ask, do you think there is a sonic benefit to separates (pre and amp) vs an all in one unit for amplification and signal processing?
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We all know cables can only make a small difference.
But how do you know that, since you refuse to try an aftermarket power cable? -
expectation bias? -
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Music Direct has a no questions asked return policy. You can try a $100 Venom 14 power cable with literally NOTHING to lose.
Think about it, you only stand to gain - either additional musical enjoyment, or the ability to come back and post about how the power cable made no difference in your system, so you returned it for a full refund.
And guess what, if it does nothing and you return it and actually post about and share your experience, you will get everyone's respect and approval, because you actually TRIED IT FOR YOURSELF. -
Every time I visit this forum (seems I'm up to 3,993 now), I realize how much I can't stand being here.
Is there a psychiatrist in the house?
How about a rep from Overthinkers Anonymous?So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
Every time I visit this forum (seems I'm up to 3,993 now), I realize how much I can't stand being here.
Is there a psychiatrist in the house?
How about a rep from Overthinkers Anonymous?
Have you tried "sitting"
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I learned a lot time ago to not let what people say on a forum bother me too much.
There are a lot of keyboard experts and warriors out there.Yamaha RX-A2070, Musical Fidelity M6si integrated amp, Benchmark Dac1, Bluesound NODE 2i, Audiolab 6000CDT CD Transport, Parasound Zphono USB Phono Preamp, Fluance RT85, Ortofon 2M Bronze, Polk L600's, L400, L900's, RC80i's, SVS 3000 Micro, Audioquest Interconnects and Digital Cables, Nordost Silver Shadow Digital Cable, Cullen Gold and Crossover Series Power Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha 12AWG OCC Speaker Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha Analog Interconnect Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha 11 OCC Custom Power Cable, Signal Power Cable, Furman PL-8C 15 Power Conditioner, Sony 65" 900F, Sony UBP-X700, Fios, Apple TV 4K, Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables. -
Man love this thread, just keeps on giving
When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music -
Some people have made their minds up, could be their gear is the issue, could be they haven't tried the right cables. Once I heard the right cables it became more of an issue of diminishing returns for me. But before I heard the right cables I heard lots of them that did nothing or very little for me, some of them extremely well reviewed for the difference they would make. Whatever, won't do any good to keep this going past 250 posts. It's a new year.
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I see K_M is still at it. Judging everyone else's own findings and experiences by belittling them and calling their views hyperbole, exaggerated, illogical, irrational, extremely biased, telling everyone what spectrum the differences can fall into. All while hiding behind an excuse of the "human factor" as the reason it can't possibly be true, rather than relying on her own experience's and findings. Of which she has ZERO.
Classic, textbook, trolling
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Some of the arguments about what's been said in this thread is based on expectation bias.
Years ago, I test drove a Ford F150 Lariat Super Crew cab. After reading about them online, I had the idea before I opened the door that it would be sturdy, powerful, roomy, and comfortable. It was all that. So I bought it. Not to join the multitude of F150 owners, or to secure a place on the F150 Forum as a KoolAid drinker. Nope, it was a lot more complex than that - I tried it, I liked it, I own it. For almost 8 years now. And if someone wanted to know what they were like and knew me, I'd toss them the keys and say take it for a spin. Not because I'm a fanboy or getting commission on selling Fords, just because I like them and maybe someone else would enjoy one as much as I do. Shame on me, I guess.
So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
never mind.
Beating a dead horse
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
never mind.
Beating a dead"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I bought some Zu audio jumpers and they sent paperwork that stated their wires need a good amount of break in time. So even some wire manufacturers believe it as well.
"Break in" coming from a manufacturer means, if you do not hear what you expect to hear right away, they do not want you to return the item.
If you give it time to "Break in" the longer you own them the less likely you will be inclined to return something.
And usually over time, ones feelings of disappointment lessen and you simply do not care as much.
I'm not looking to jump in the fray here because my opinions on cables are often not taken well because it seems that my position is a personal affront to everyone else so I stay out of the debate.
However, "break in" is subjective.
It's not a fake thing nor is it a ploy for a placebo effect to have time to come to fruition.
In a wire/cable, unless the signal cable has noise reduction capacitors or loopback resistors wired in line, there shouldn't be a "break in" period for them. Wire should not change it's properties under normal use. If it does, there's an issue like oxidation which is counter to proper conduction of an electrical signal.
In something like a speaker/driver, it's a very real thing. It's not often evident in full range or midrange drivers. But, in something like a high powered subwoofer, heavy surrounds made from thick butyl rubber with heavy voice coil formers and spiders, they can be stiff from the factory. Especially if they sat on a shelf somewhere for a while. It takes some time for one to loosen up and reach it's design specs under use. This is because the movement of the driver diaphragm fatigues the stiff parts to the point where they get compliant enough that they compliment the motor structure instead of fighting it. At this point they are "broken in".
It's a lot like when you get a new pair of fine leather shoes. They were probably fitted to your feet then oiled and worked to gain compliance. Even so it still takes quite a few steps of walking in the them for the leather to stretch, flex and fatigue in all the rights spots to fit your foot shape, movement and walking gait. At first wear, you may think you just dumped a ton of money on a nice look pair of torture devices. But in a week's time, that changes, not because you are used to it but rather because the shoes are now accustomed to you.
Wires shouldn't be breaking in. They should how they are going to sound from the factory.
Wires with noise reduction and other passive modifiers attached to them can break in because those electrical components can change properties over repeated heat cycling under use.
Almost any electronics device that isn't solely digital and needing an external DAC from a turntable to a tuner and even an amplifier can change over time as they break in and even as they wear out. This is especially evident with tube amplification. Any component that has an analog output (i.e.: left and right RCA cables) will eventually experience some level of signal degradation through deterioration of the components from normal use. Fully digital has no in between. It's either on or off despite the strength of the signal. If the digital signal strength is so far reduced that it falls outside of allowable error correction parameters then it will just not be picked up and not work at all. Because of this, to spend silly amounts of money on an HDMI cable or a TOSLINK cable is absurd. I mean, yeah, get a decent cable with good jacketing and good ends with good stress relief so that the cable lasts a good long time for you. But, unless a cable that transfers a digital signal either by electrons or by lasers (TOSLINK, fiber optic) is damaged, there's no need to replace it. There's also no discernible difference to a human ear between the signal quality provided by a $15 Monoprice HDMI cable and a $1500 Jim Bob's Expensive Magic Cable Company cable. If there is then, one of the cables is damaged in some way or even defective in such a manner that maybe a contact point is not fully engaging or a ground connection is inadequate due to a manufacturing defect.
Speakers certainly do change over time as their parts fatigue and gain mass through dust collection in some areas and lose mass through use and fatigue in other areas. Enclosures that the drivers are mounted in can experience degradation from use as well and color the sound too.
Break-in is a real thing. In some cases it's important as if you overdrive a speaker before it breaks in, you can damage it beyond repair. Wires, though...I'm seriously skeptical and would like to see some evidence of the changes in performance from a pre-break in period vs. a post break in period.Expert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »This is very telling.
It appears that most of your issues have to do with projecting your own insecurities on others.
Ouch!
I've learned long ago some people just LOVE the sound of their own voice...
I, for one, like my new cables. Both my daughter and I can hear a difference that appeals to our senses. If not, I would have returned them. We would like to thank you all who have provided positive input in this and all the other discussions that have helped my family rediscover the beauty and enjoyment of music.Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)
There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus