Do power cables make a difference?

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Comments

  • delkal
    delkal Posts: 760
    mantis wrote: »
    Clipdat wrote: »
    It doesn't make any logical sense in my mind in regards to how a power cable could make this much of an improvement in stereo imaging. But wow. Crazy.
    They don't make huge differences unless the factory cord is poorly constructed and picking up interference. This is where aftermarket power chords make bigger differences. EMI and RF interference sucks and can ruin your sound quality. Your amp could care less where the signal is coming from. if it comes in then it's in.

    I would assume power cables would help amps with undersized transformers and power caps more than a properly built amp. A lot of companies (even high end) are skimping on their power supplies.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,226
    Thats not a bad assumption, it makes sense.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 45,742
    mantis wrote: »
    Clipdat wrote: »
    It doesn't make any logical sense in my mind in regards to how a power cable could make this much of an improvement in stereo imaging. But wow. Crazy.

    They don't make huge differences unless the factory cord is poorly constructed and picking up interference. This is where aftermarket power chords make bigger differences. EMI and RF interference sucks and can ruin your sound quality. Your amp could care less where the signal is coming from. if it comes in then it's in.

    Of course, the amp cares about the electricity coming in. Your comments on the subject matter indicate a lack of understanding.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 9,548
    edited April 2018
    I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "substantiated" in this context, or if you were referring to my experience in particular.

    After using my Marantz CDP (with the stock cord) for the past 5 years I was very familiar with its sound. It only took me listening to 2 tracks on a CD to hear the improvement in stereo imaging with the aftermarket cable.
    K_M wrote: »
    I have read many internet claims of positive results with better cords.
    On the other hand.....
    None of the claims are ever substantiated.

  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,897
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    Clipdat wrote: »
    I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "substantiated" in this context, or if you were referring to my experience in particular.

    After using my Marantz CDP (with the stock cord) for the past 5 years I was very familiar with its sound. It only took me listening to 2 tracks on a CD to hear the improvement in stereo imaging with the aftermarket cable.
    K_M wrote: »
    I have read many internet claims of positive results with better cords.
    On the other hand.....
    None of the claims are ever substantiated.

    I was not referring to any particular comment.
    Just pointing out that the debate of all types of cables has been going on for years, and it is mostly a very pointless debate, arguing over unfounded claims.

    Somewhat similar to me claiming "I saw a unicorn yesterday"......if you want an analogy.
    But with me providing no proof, only my anecdote.

    First thing I would get, would be "Prove it", "Need a pic!" Etc etc, right?

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  • MrBuhl
    MrBuhl Posts: 2,419
    I think you're just being argumentative. Unicorns and actual experience are two different things. But whatevs. I know what I hear, and that's good enough for me.
    VA HT HK AVR20II, Sony S9000ES CD/DVD/SACD, Polk Audio RC80i / Polk Audio CSi3, 60" Panasonic Plasma, Nordost / Signal Cable A2 / Wireworld / Pangea / Magic Power
    VA 2 Channel Focal Electra 926 speakers, Pass Labs X150.5 Amp, Eastern Electric MiniMax Preamp (Tutay mods), Eastern Electric Minimax CDP (Scott Nixon mods), Music Hall mmf 5.1 Turntable, Parks Audio Budgie Phono Pre , Audioengine B1 streamer, MIT S3 IC's / MIT Shotgun S3 Speaker Cables / PS Audio power cables
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 45,742
    edited April 2018
    Somewhat similar to me claiming "I saw a unicorn yesterday"......if you want an analogy.
    But with me providing no proof, only my anecdote.

    In your case, I'd believe you really did. No proof necessary.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 18,546
    F1nut wrote: »
    Somewhat similar to me claiming "I saw a unicorn yesterday"......if you want an analogy.
    But with me providing no proof, only my anecdote.

    In your case, I'd believe you really did. No proof necessary.

    you owe me a new keyboard....
    what a mess :D:D:D
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    edited April 2018
    MrBuhl wrote: »
    I think you're just being argumentative. Unicorns and actual experience are two different things. But whatevs. I know what I hear, and that's good enough for me.

    No, simply saying, pointless to argue it.
    It is people posting an "Experience", or a supposed account of an experience.
    That part is fine....
    Debating the issue, is pointless, as nothing is verified or proven.

    "I hit a deer with my car yesterday!"
    Did it truly happen??
    I'm saying meaningless to give much veracity to a simple "Claim" made online, with nothing more than the claim as verification. Get it? :)
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • MrBuhl
    MrBuhl Posts: 2,419
    I would point out again, if it's pointless to argue, why are you arguing? People hear what they hear - I don't understand trying to convince them otherwise.
    VA HT HK AVR20II, Sony S9000ES CD/DVD/SACD, Polk Audio RC80i / Polk Audio CSi3, 60" Panasonic Plasma, Nordost / Signal Cable A2 / Wireworld / Pangea / Magic Power
    VA 2 Channel Focal Electra 926 speakers, Pass Labs X150.5 Amp, Eastern Electric MiniMax Preamp (Tutay mods), Eastern Electric Minimax CDP (Scott Nixon mods), Music Hall mmf 5.1 Turntable, Parks Audio Budgie Phono Pre , Audioengine B1 streamer, MIT S3 IC's / MIT Shotgun S3 Speaker Cables / PS Audio power cables
    Noggin Schiit Valhalla, Pangea, Phillips Fidelio X1, Polk UF8000

    Polk SDA1c modded
    Polk CRS+ 4.1TL modded (need veneer)
    Polk SDA2BTL (fully modded)
    A/L 1000VA Dreadnought Canare 4s11 SDA cable
    SACD Marantz DV8300
    Sony S9000ES CD/DVD/SACD
    Yamaha YP-D6
    Soundcraftsmen PCR800
    Audible Illusions L1 Preamp
    Vincent MFA based Cocci Tube Preamp
    Pho-700 Phono Pre
    Signal Cable Silver Resolution IC's






  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 18,546
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    .
    I've long opined that reading about hifi is akin to reading about sex -- there is some entertainment value, but one cannot beat empiricism.

    OMG Doc that is signature material right there.

    you're on a roll brah

  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    edited April 2018
    MrBuhl wrote: »
    I would point out again, if it's pointless to argue, why are you arguing? People hear what they hear - I don't understand trying to convince them otherwise.


    My point, I will make it quite simple for you........
    All cable debates are pointless. People are simply arguing over anecdotal accounts, rather than something concrete or proven.

    A grain of salt type of thing.


    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 45,742
    The unicorns are calling.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 9,548
    I was pretty skeptical too, before I tried one. Do you have $100? You could try out a Shunyata Venom 14 cable for 30 days and if you don't hear any difference ship it right back to MusicDirect.

    Seems like a win-win.
    K_M wrote: »
    My point, I will make it quite simple for you........
    All cable debates are pointless. People are simply arguing over anecdotal accounts, rather than something concrete or proven.

    A grain of salt type of thing.

  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    The thing about cables (as opposed to unicorns, e.g.) is that the cables do exist in the corporeal world. One may try them and assess them at face value -- independent of any rap or peer pressure -- and judge for oneself.

    I've long opined that reading about hifi is akin to reading about sex -- there is some entertainment value, but one cannot beat empiricism.

    So you agree with me, but probably do not realize....
    Anecdotes about cables, lack any empirical evidence to anyone but the person relaying the account.

    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
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    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,612
    K_M wrote: »
    MrBuhl wrote: »
    I would point out again, if it's pointless to argue, why are you arguing? People hear what they hear - I don't understand trying to convince them otherwise.


    My point, I will make it quite simple for you........
    All cable debates are pointless. People are simply arguing over anecdotal accounts, rather than something concrete or proven.

    A grain of salt type of thing.


    So, are you for or against and, if so, which is it?
  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,897
    K_M wrote: »
    MrBuhl wrote: »
    I would point out again, if it's pointless to argue, why are you arguing? People hear what they hear - I don't understand trying to convince them otherwise.


    My point, I will make it quite simple for you........
    All cable debates are pointless. People are simply arguing over anecdotal accounts, rather than something concrete or proven.

    A grain of salt type of thing.


    Then why do you comment?
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    edited April 2018
    halo wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    MrBuhl wrote: »
    I would point out again, if it's pointless to argue, why are you arguing? People hear what they hear - I don't understand trying to convince them otherwise.


    My point, I will make it quite simple for you........
    All cable debates are pointless. People are simply arguing over anecdotal accounts, rather than something concrete or proven.

    A grain of salt type of thing.


    So, are you for or against and, if so, which is it?

    I would love someone to provide proof that they could identify a difference, but remain quite skeptical otherwise, as I have seen only accounts of subjective experiences so far.

    I have very little/no real world experience with "High" priced power cables, but none of the accounts I have read, were truly convincing in any manner that would make me for sure believe the account given was definitive and without question.

    There is room for skeptical views. I simply find an anecdotal account, not even close to definitive.

    Hence my comment, it is pointless to argue a topic, that is lacking credible proof, and also contrarily just as pointless to get upset, when one is not providing any credible evidence other than saying "Trust me, I know what I hear".

    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 9,548
    I think what you're getting hung up on here, is that nobody is saying "This is what I heard/experienced and you will hear/experience the same!"

    We're just sharing our own observations of what we did or did not notice.
    K_M wrote: »
    There is room for skeptical views. I simply find an anecdotal account, not even close to definitive.

    Hence my comment, it is pointless to argue a topic, that is lacking credible proof, and also contrarily just as pointless to get upset, when one is not providing any credible evidence other than saying "Trust me, I know what I hear".

  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    DSkip wrote: »
    Not sure where there was an argument in this thread K_M? This was a discussion about merits until you threw your 2 cents in.

    Ya know you are probably mostly right. I agree, but I was referring to "In General" in audio forums, the huge amount of back and forth going on.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 27,330
    Joe Roberts (of Sound Practices fame) offered, I'd opine, some pretty cogent insight (albeit in a slightly different hifi context):

    http://www.hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/truly-fantastic-tube-phono-kit-for-beginners.3471/page-7#post-65734

    a snippet:
    Two (or more) knowledge systems collide in audio and none wins. It is actually a very complex situation if taken seriously, with a somewhat-technical understanding of epistemological conditions underlying this activity. It is more anthropology than engineering, but engineering is anthropology too from where I sit.

    Man has no other way to engage the world except through invisible cultural lenses and filters applied to an ongoing flow of unique historical events.

    I am agnostic on others' listening experiences and preferences, do my own evaluation in my own natural use contexts, and maybe I'm learning something while getting progressively more confused and less inclined to decide for anybody else. This feels right to me and does not conflict with my book learnin'.
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    DSkip wrote: »
    Sometimes 'proof' isn't necessary. Do you think the sun will appear again tomorrow? Sure you do. There is no proof that it is going to - you simply can't prove it. However, with deductive reasoning, our expectation is that it will. Day in and day out.

    Deductive reasoning would lead me to believe that all cables have a signature that presents itself on the sound, whether it be neutral or a coloration. When multiple people with different systems present similar experiences, you can deduce that the cable has an impact on the sound.

    I used my deductive reasoning to expect a recent cable thread to turn into an argument. Why? I have no proof of it, but the patterns lead me to believe that we have gone way too long without one.

    I guess I was right.

    Do you think there is maybe frustration, over not being able to give a more definitive proof, that an individual's account is verifiable, or something entirely different?

    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,651
    Rapture is happening on April 23rd. Won't much matter on the 24th.
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 9,670
    When VERY intelligent people say they hear an improvement from upgrading to a more beefier or fancy wire design power cable, they 99.99% probably have.

    The only way to change someones' mind, or not, is for them to experience the event themselves.

    You can't miss, verify or discount what you haven't heard. ;)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,897
    edited April 2018
    K_M wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Sometimes 'proof' isn't necessary. Do you think the sun will appear again tomorrow? Sure you do. There is no proof that it is going to - you simply can't prove it. However, with deductive reasoning, our expectation is that it will. Day in and day out.

    Deductive reasoning would lead me to believe that all cables have a signature that presents itself on the sound, whether it be neutral or a coloration. When multiple people with different systems present similar experiences, you can deduce that the cable has an impact on the sound.

    I used my deductive reasoning to expect a recent cable thread to turn into an argument. Why? I have no proof of it, but the patterns lead me to believe that we have gone way too long without one.

    I guess I was right.

    Do you think there is maybe frustration, over not being able to give a more definitive proof, that an individual's account is verifiable, or something entirely different?

    That would sort of explains why you post to a thread when you have already drawn YOUR conclusion. Nah, Afterburnt's razor: the stupidest explanation tends to be correct. You posted just to whip it.
  • gp4jesus
    gp4jesus Posts: 1,654
    edited April 2018
    Clipdat wrote: »
    After using my Marantz CDP (with the stock cord) for the past 5 years I was very familiar with its sound. It only took me listening to 2 tracks on a CD to hear the improvement in stereo imaging with the aftermarket cable.
    is your CDP’s “new” cord heavier than stocker? Regrettably most of my gear requires modding* (an IEC socket) to swap around power cords. I found it easy to mod same to my B1.39 sub while repairing it. I’m forced to save that* for 2020, my first calendar year of retirement. That is in between honey-do stuff.
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED
    Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro
    Samsung BDP, Dish Rcvr, Xbox, Phillips CD chgr

    Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; CC outside
    BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out
    8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside* & out
    *soldered

    LR: tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; M&T - 981
    CC: Rotel RB981 -> bi-amped CSi A6
    5 Audio Pro Subs: LFE & CC - B1.39; all others - Evidence
    Surrounds: Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3
    Power Conditioning & Distribution:
    3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman Miniport 20s
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    Tony M wrote: »
    When VERY intelligent people say they hear an improvement from upgrading to a more beefier or fancy wire design power cable, they 99.99% probably have.

    The only way to change someones' mind, or not, is for them to experience the event themselves.

    You can't miss, verify or discount what you haven't heard. ;)

    Does the inverse apply also?
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    afterburnt wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Sometimes 'proof' isn't necessary. Do you think the sun will appear again tomorrow? Sure you do. There is no proof that it is going to - you simply can't prove it. However, with deductive reasoning, our expectation is that it will. Day in and day out.

    Deductive reasoning would lead me to believe that all cables have a signature that presents itself on the sound, whether it be neutral or a coloration. When multiple people with different systems present similar experiences, you can deduce that the cable has an impact on the sound.

    I used my deductive reasoning to expect a recent cable thread to turn into an argument. Why? I have no proof of it, but the patterns lead me to believe that we have gone way too long without one.

    I guess I was right.

    Do you think there is maybe frustration, over not being able to give a more definitive proof, that an individual's account is verifiable, or something entirely different?

    That would sort of explains why you post to a thread when you have already drawn YOUR conclusion. Nah, Afterburnt's razor: the stupidest explanation tends to be correct. You posted just to whip it.

    I'm not sure if you are highly intelligent, humourous or simply ultra rich....
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

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