Do power cables make a difference?

afterburnt · April 2018

Impetigo, what about power cables?

vcwatkins · April 2018

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Joe Roberts -- the redoubtable founder of the great (and much missed) Sound Practices magazine of the 1990s -- is a well-educated guy (anthropologist) who's spent much of his life chasing the hifi dragon, running in some pretty rarefied circles and, more to the point, building up a huge practical database of experience informed by "book" knowledge and a true and abiding love of and enthusiasm for the subject.

Joe's recently written some (I would suggest) cogent and insightful commentary on how darn hard it can be to tease apart the objective and subjective in this furshlugginer hobby. I offer a couple of examples -- these may be a little arcane in the abstract... but I'd encourage anyone with an interest in this hobby to peruse the threads from which these posts were taken.

http://www.hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/heater-wire-question.3470/#post-64775
http://www.hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/truly-fantastic-tube-phono-kit-for-beginners.3471/page-7#post-65734

Open ears & an open mind are excellent tools, I'd opine.

Wasn't aware of Joe Roberts. Good stuff. Thanks for the links.

mhardy6647 · April 2018

The rekindled interest in single-ended DHT amplifiers and high-sensitivity loudspeakers in the US in the 1990s was largely due to Joe and Sound Practices (with a little help from folks like Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg).

delkal · April 2018

Of course if you just spent a fortune on one you will be going out of your way to hear anything. And maybe the cords do sound better. But did anyone do a truly Blind a/b comparison with their power cables?

And I mean put up a sheet or something and have someone else swap the cord out randomly. Can you get it right 100% (or 50%) of the time? And don't tell me the sheet and someone standing behind your amp messes up the acoustics so bad you can't tell

mpitogo · April 2018

@mhardy6647 good read. Maybe strong opinions on my part are bad but left brain right brain is a struggle I’m working on. While I do love the arts, and am classically trained in music, listen to music daily at least 4 hours per day, I’m still leaning on the technical science aspects of audio reproduction. By trade I’m also in the technical field.

@afterburnt power cables you ask? I’m contemplating this

F1nut · April 2018

delkal wrote: »

Of course if you just spent a fortune on one you will be going out of your way to hear anything. And maybe the cords do sound better. But did anyone do a truly Blind a/b comparison with their power cables?

And I mean put up a sheet or something and have someone else swap the cord out randomly. Can you get it right 100% (or 50%) of the time? And don't tell me the sheet and someone standing behind your amp messes up the acoustics so bad you can't tell

No need. I once tried a power cord much more expensive than the expensive after market cord I was using. I clearly heard a difference as soon as I listened the first time and that difference never went away. I could pick out those two cords 100% of the time, guaranteed. I ended up returning the demo cord because I didn't like the way it sounded.

gmcman · April 2018

I typed this up earlier this am, didn't have time to finish, so it may not sync with the current replies.

Let's turn this around.....how would power cables not make a difference? It really comes down to how revealing your system is.

Whether it's here or on many other forums, regarding many feet of romex in walls, breaker boxes, transformers, miles of high tension lines...why do interconnects and speaker wires get favorable recognition but not power cords? I mean, you're just connecting one component to the other correct? Why is it acceptable to use high quality interconnect's, high quality speaker wire, but it doesn't matter about the power cord?

You have a high quality cd player with filtering caps inside, isolation transformer, the signal coming out of that must be clean correct... you're only going to your pre amp. Why the need for a high quality interconnect it's only a foot away?

Our components are connected to another component..ie, the outlet, so why not keep the signal clean?

Taking a run of romex or even a cheap power cord, you have the copper wires running parallel to each other with little to no isolation of the skin effect. Just because you cant see it, doesnt mean the radiating interference isn't present. A decent DMM set on mV will pick up the interference when the probes are near the cord....so it must be happening.

I remember not too long ago moving a power cord from my CD player to the preamp then using a cheap cord on the CDP for a brief period. I came back days later playing a familiar CD and the entire soundstage sounded slightly dark and closed off, I figured it was because the equipment was idle for a few weeks, albeit powered on. I let the system go for a few hours and the same closed-off sound was still there...I distinctly remember a good deal of space and air around the speakers.

I looked around for anything out of place and I had my cheap PC power cord on the CDP so I swapped temporarily to my spare Pangea and it changed back to that open, slightly airy soundstage.

FestYboy wrote: »

Is there any documented measured difference? Any kind of draw like that in a home audio amp happens internally, after the transformer/rectifier.

The current coming off the transformer needs to be fed by something. If the load increases, then the load from the wall outlet needs to increase.

rpf65 · April 2018

I try my best to not get involved in these discussions, because my ears are different than others. I really don't want to judge others ears, and so I won't.

There is another way to think of power cable, or any cable for that matter.

Some things you can control. The choice of gear, speakers, and of course cables.

You can't do anything about the noise in the power lines, but you can, for instance, reduce a lot of that noise by utilizing a power conditioner for various components. Most people, not all hear sonic benefits at this approach.

The benefit of a quality power cable is a little different. It won't necessarily clean up the power, but it won't add any more noise from the plug. The quality and type of plug used, while I personally feel is relevant, has no bearing on the discussion of power cords making a difference. The op asked specifically about power cords.

The goal is to get the cleanest current possible to your gear. This eleminates noise, or provides the blackest back ground possible.

If one can, at least, avoids adding noise, be it from RF, inductance, capacitance, and/or low freq, some sonic benefit should be achieved.

As with speaker cables and interconnects, some believe there is no difference between them. Others believe that different conduction materials, insulators, or different manufacturing processes change the sound signature. I don't have their ears, gear, or room, so I can't say what they hear.

Will I say that a quality power cable will improve the sound signature of your particular gear, in your particular room to your ears: No. Will the majority of the people, on this site, say you will hear a benefit: again; No, unlike many sites.

The usual advise is to try it, and weather you hear a difference or not, the answer is correct.

Joey_V · April 2018

mpitogo wrote: »

I swapped out RCA cables between my preamp and amp for balanced audio cables in the LR 2.0. The difference is incremental but the RCA was’t bad, if anything there is better noise rejection. One thing I can say which improved my main LR 2.0 is the amp upgrade to an RB-1590 over the MA5200 integrated. The LSiM707 wasn’t bass shy but bass region now sounds fuller and deeper. It hits harder and I’m running no equalization from either the MA5200 (which doesn’t have any) or the C47 (tone off for all inputs). The speaker cables are dual BJC Canare 4S11 with their ultrasonicly welded 45deg spades, total 5ga per speaker or 8ga per section.

From an electrical engineering standpoint I can understand this but power cables are something I’m trying to understand. I watched the videos but looks to have been sponsored by AQ. I own some of their cables but still skeptical.

@tonyb totally get it, AQ Dragon power cable at $4400 would do nothing for my system, but if it where mated to a Goldmund $550K Apologue speaker, that AQ $4k power cable would pale in comparison to what they must include. Systems are the sum of its parts and depending on the level we play in there are only so much you can do before power of diminishing returns kick in.

@Afterburner if you ask me all subwoofers should use balanced audio cables. Placement probably dictate longer distances between components and standard cables pick up noise.

Everything in moderation.

I run audioquest wel power cords which just got supplanted by the aq dragon.

While I am sure that perhaps the Dragon is better power cord in some ways (bass i bet), I am not spending 4600 for a 1m cord times FOUR!

I am happy where I am.

However when I send my Boulder power cord in for customization to audioquest, I will see if I can swing the Dragon or hurricane.

kharp1 · April 2018

afterburnt wrote: »

afterburnt wrote: »

How do you folks feel about upgrading sub woofer cables?

Duh, I should have said "power cables"

I run my SVS with the Zu Event cable currently, though I have shuttled others in and out. I plug that in to a Shunyata Guardian running an Alpha Python cable. Does it make a difference? I don't know, but, I like it.

Joey_V · April 2018

Just for interest, I plugged in my brother's Musical Fidelity M1 DAC (I believe it is < $1,000) with the stock cable then the AQ WEL power cord... he was pretty flabbergasted with the result, same output, same volume level, same song. He was not a believer, he heard it and he bought some audioquest cables after. Not Wel level, but he's pretty happy with the level he bought.

F1nut · April 2018

In the words of the late MadMax, "Everything matters."

Toolfan66 · April 2018

Your Cable Religion Offends Me...

Snowflake...

tonyb · April 2018

afterburnt wrote: »

How do you folks feel about upgrading sub woofer cables?

Funny you should ask, I did an experiment long ago with a subwoofer RCA cable, supposedly a dedicated "subwoofer" cable. It was Monsters best at the time. I swapped it for a regular RCA IC, I believe it was a Morrow cable but the series escapes me.

Wouldn't ya know, the bass was tighter, cleaner, more thump. Very noticeable, but didn't make a crap sub turn into an SVS either.

I knew back then, every cable in the chain makes a difference, for good or bad.

I already knew speaker cables and RCA's made a difference, so I then moved on to power cords. Swapping the standard cord on the receiver with a 100 buck upgraded cord, revealed some slight improvements. I was amazed, because I too didn't think power cords would make a difference. After all, if the stock cord wasn't good enough, why would manufacturers include something inferior ? Right ?

It's not that they are inferior per say, simply adequate is more like it. If they included the best with every product, their products price point would be blown up.

FestYboy · April 2018

gmcman wrote: »

FestYboy wrote: »

Is there any documented measured difference? Any kind of draw like that in a home audio amp happens internally, after the transformer/rectifier.

The current coming off the transformer needs to be fed by something. If the load increases, then the load from the wall outlet needs to increase.

Maybe I should have specified "Sonic difference" in that question though I thought it was inferred.

As for current draw capacity of any power cord, one could argue that an 18 gauge wire has all the capacity needed to feed a 15A circuit (think powerful vacuum cleaner, they're sometimes rated at 12A steady draw and use 18g wire over a 20 foot run... The same analogy can be used with hair dryers or space heaters... 1800W at 120vac is always the same number of amps). If we want to shift the discussion away from the audio aspect, then we should start a new thread.

F1nut · April 2018

When was the last time you listened to the sound stage of a space heater?

mhardy6647 · April 2018

F1nut wrote: »

When was the last time you listened to the sound stage of a space heater?

Reminds me of the Class A Mark Levinson (actual Mark Levinson) amps that AK's Beemer used to drive his Pipedreams. They looked like space heaters and they heated like 'em, too.

Sounded good, though.

EndersShadow · April 2018

I am running both my Crown XLS sub amps off PS Audio AC-3 cables and also my MicroPro sub

mpitogo · April 2018

How do you decide which brand and which series? eg PS Audio, Pangea Audio, Wireworld, AudioQuest etc...

mikeyb128 · April 2018

F1nut wrote: »

When was the last time you listened to the sound stage of a space heater?

That’s Sig material right there folks!

tonyb · April 2018

mpitogo wrote: »

How do you decide which brand and which series? eg PS Audio, Pangea Audio, Wireworld, AudioQuest etc...

Certain series are made for smaller components like preamps, dacs, cdp's etc. Other series are made for more power hungry devices like amps. Some smaller amps won't require a garden hose power cord, while some other heavy hitters will.

That's in general btw, as some gear, aside from power cables like gear that requires an interconnect between a power supply and device, can certainly benefit from a better cable also.

Steve McCormack himself has said his amps respond very well to upgraded power cords. Who am I to argue with him.

Diminishing returns, as someone mentioned is certainly a concern in this hobby of ours. One has to judge that for themselves.

afterburnt · April 2018

mpitogo wrote: »

How do you decide which brand and which series? eg PS Audio, Pangea Audio, Wireworld, AudioQuest etc...

Impetigo l went with Wireworld because I like their unique geometry and they look like you could eat them in a pinch.

F1nut · April 2018

mpitogo wrote: »

How do you decide which brand and which series? eg PS Audio, Pangea Audio, Wireworld, AudioQuest etc...

The same way you decide which gear to buy, a lot of research, demo if possible, trial and error.

tonyb · April 2018

F1nut wrote: »

mpitogo wrote: »

How do you decide which brand and which series? eg PS Audio, Pangea Audio, Wireworld, AudioQuest etc...

The same way you decide which gear to buy, a lot of research, demo if possible, trial and error.

Sounds like work Jess, ever hear the phrase "know your audience" ?

Wish I had a nickel for things I tried and didn't like. It only makes you more aware though and focuses your searches better down the road. I usually research things to death before buying too, almost to a fault. I do that though to raise the odds I won't get stuck with a turkey.

Some would do well to take advice from others who have been down the same paths. People or members with ears you trust. This is probably the number one thing you can do to avoid wasting money and aggravation.

tonyb · April 2018

Good suggestions Skip, I might add even Signal Magic power cords are an upgrade to stock cords. Maybe not as much as the brands you mentioned, but certainly better.

Joey_V · April 2018

I will also add that I have noticed larger gauge cords let through more bass as well. This is the one thing that the new AQ storm series have over the outgoing NRG series. Hence the Dragon above the Wel

mikeyb128 · April 2018

Joey_V wrote: »

I will also add that I have noticed larger gauge cords let through more bass as well. This is the one thing that the new AQ storm series have over the outgoing NRG series. Hence the Dragon above the Wel

I heard those are a huge step above the NRG, I just ordered a tornado to go with my new bryston bit 15. Will see how they play together.

maxfrompa · April 2018

I have read a lot of these threads and have never commented but since it is club polk and I recently broke cover I will share some thoughts.

Power/Voltage drop to device;

The voltage provided to your point of delivery on your house cannot have a voltage drop of more than 3%. A typical house might have a maximum summer load of 16Kw. If the service is say 150ft of 4/0tx underground the voltage drop would be approximately 1%. Then the voltage drop through your entrance cable and supply circuit to the outlet will be some amount. And lastly there is the drop across the power cable to your amp. All of these add up. This change in voltage is seen on the secondary of the transformer winding in your power amp and since it is not regulated, to the DC voltage produced for use by the amp.

It does not take much to hear a change. A 1.5 volt battery momentarily touched to a speakers input is easily heard as an example. As far as voltage drop is concerned it does not make any difference if the 3ft power cable is at your power amp or at the pad mount transformer since it is additive. Also the change from full load to minimum load typically does not happen quickly and is not nearly as large as designed for in my experience.

So it does make a difference depending on the change in voltage drop between the two cords.

Noise:

There is a whole lot of noise on the power grid. I test medium voltage underground cables, and one of the tests is partial discharge. The test looks for an electrical breakdown across a void in the insulation. To see the pulse all the extraneous noise must be filtered out. It can be very difficult in some areas. All that noise makes it right to your amp. A 3ft shielded cable at the end wont stop it. The good thing is the power supply in your amp is excellent at filtering it out. Just put a scope on it and see.

I have the stock cords on all my gear, maybe one day I will upgrade.

motorstereo · April 2018

DSkip wrote: »

mpitogo wrote: »

How do you decide which brand and which series? eg PS Audio, Pangea Audio, Wireworld, AudioQuest etc...

Believe it or not, they will impart their own signature onto the sound. Pangea will have a slightly rolled off top end that integrates well into most systems. I don't like their AC-9 but loved the AC-14SE. Wireworld is neutral in presentation and won't shift the tonal balance of your system much, if at all.

I think to get your feet wet, you should be looking at Shunyata, PS Audio, Pangea (seriously avoid the AC-9, its a PITA to work with), Wireworld, and Cullen.

Interesting about the AC-9. What component was it hooked up to when you noticed the rolled off top end? I'm in my 2nd day now with my new to me AC-9's hooked up to my 1200 wpc power amps and I do not notice any rolled off top end. I do notice a lot more bottom end though. I also agree with your advice to avoid it because it's a PITA to work with. I don't believe the AC-9 would work with any other piece of gear I own other than the 147lb amps they're connected to and I can't imagine trying to hook up a light weight cd player to one. The arcs that have to be put into them have to be big sweeping arcs and they make 14 gauge household wiring look puny in comparison

FestYboy · April 2018

@DSkip is on the other side of the question that I think that @mpitogo is asking... How do we know what to focus on? And that leads back to my question: are there any documented measurements... that would help in guiding the decision? Is there any standard? Aside from the cable's power capacity, is there any value that would help determine what the cable may or may not do with an existing rig? Something objective?

Do power cables make a difference?

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