12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

Gatecrasher · April 2017

According to Matthew Polk all you need is 16 gauge or larger.

From every believable study I've seen, the size of the cable only matters as the length increases. For longer runs you want larger gauge but most say 12 gauge is all you need for just about any conventional application.

For a lot of things like audio cables, multi-blade razors, motor oil, etc... for every so-called study that claims that fancy cables make a difference you can find just as many sources that say it BS. You will also find zealots who will defend one side of the argument or the other as-if it was the Bible vs the Koran.

One thing I always felt was total BS was the theory that speaker wires start to sound better after they are "broken -in". I just can't buy that malarkey. Like the electrons start flowing better after they get used to the copper.

I think I would need a bunch of joints and probably a couple hits of acid before my ears would convince me of that nonsense. If there is a difference I can't tell. if it were true why wouldn't these high-end cable manufacturers break them in for the consumers in advance?

Here's a naysayer: http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Unknown · April 2017

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[Deleted User] · April 2017

If YOU hear no difference, then there is no difference. Good for you.

"One thing I always felt was total BS was the theory that speaker wires start to sound better after they are "broken -in". I just can't buy that malarkey. Like the electrons start flowing better after they get used to the copper."
You just don't have any experience then. If you have some, please sight some
examples of cables used.

F1nut · April 2017

According to Matthew Polk all you need is 14 gauge or larger.

Sure, that must be why Polk sold their Cobra cable and why Matt uses better cables at his house. Must to tough being so wrong about so much, so often, but you do bring it upon yourself.

Gatecrasher · April 2017

ken brydson wrote: »

Here's Roger Rabbit again, knew it would come up...

You can shoot the messenger in this but he provides a lot more in data to back his claims than any on here that I've seen.

It's real easy to just say the kind of stuff you just did without anything to back your claims. I could do that easily too but I am a little more open minded on the subject. I like to look at all sides of a discussion.

F1nut wrote: »

According to Matthew Polk all you need is 14 gauge or larger.

Sure, that must be why Polk sold their Cobra cable and why Matt uses better cables at his house. Must to tough being so wrong about so much, so often, but you do bring it upon yourself.

This guy in the link I posted does actual testing on now-discontinued Polk Cobra cable Mein Fuhrer.

http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Here's what every Polk Audio manual I've ever seen says about the cable requirement for Polk Speakers:

"Use two-conductor 16 gauge or thicker
speaker wires. Measure enough wire to reach
from your receiver or amp to the speaker.
Keep in mind the extra length needed for running
the wire around doors and windows.
Leave yourself about 12" of extra slack to
allow moving the speakers or receiver without
having to disconnect the wires."

Unknown · April 2017

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Gatecrasher · April 2017

DSkip wrote: »

Rosso Fiorentino breaks in their drivers and crossovers before I get my hands on them. Same concept. This isn't done on a large scale because it isn't practical. You can be absolutely sure that no product is showcased with zero hours on it from any experienced dealer or manufacturer.

Yeah but then you can't tell if there was a difference.

Are you sure they aren't just saying that? Who could tell?

lol

I'm more prone to believe that drivers, capacitors and moving voice coils operate differently after a break-in period than just copper wire does. That makes more sense to me.

Different subject.

mikeyb128 · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

According to Matthew Polk all you need is 14 gauge or larger.

From every believable study I've seen, the size of the cable only matters as the length increases. For longer runs you want larger gauge but most say 12 gauge is all you need for just about any conventional application.

For a lot of things like audio cables, multi-blade razors, motor oil, etc... for every so-called study that claims that fancy cables make a difference you can find just as many sources that say it BS. You will also find zealots who will defend one side of the argument or the other as-if it was the Bible vs the Koran.

One thing I always felt was total BS was the theory that speaker wires start to sound better after they are "broken -in". I just can't buy that malarkey. Like the electrons start flowing better after they get used to the copper.

I think I would need a bunch of joints and probably a couple hits of acid before my ears would convince me of that nonsense. If there is a difference I can't tell. if it were true why wouldn't these high-end cable manufacturers break them in for the consumers in advance?

Here's a naysayer: http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Hi gatecrasher:

Please be careful in the suggestions you make, "If there is a difference I can't tell. if it were true why wouldn't these high-end cable manufacturers break them in for the consumers in advance?"

Actually they do. And they sell devices to break in cables, amps, preamps and phono stages.

mrloren · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

mrloren wrote: »

Here is a prime example

A few years back a coworker was pulling cat5e through his house. He went and picked up a Monoprice box of Cat5e for $80. I told him to go to this electronics store and get the USA made cat5e @ $130 a box he said it was all the some.

Next day I pulled 120' from each box crimped on some ends and set up 2 PC's in the warehouse. We used a 25GB ISO stored on the hard drive. My USA made 100% pure copper had a transfer rate of 124Mbs on every attempt. His cheap just as good cat5e would start @ 124Mbs and slow down to 80Mbs. Poor dude sat there all day trying different files and PC's. In the end he did find that the USA made cable was better. He went and got a box.

If I could not afford it I would have purchased the cheaper box. still works but I like to buy the best I can afford within reason. Speaker, HDMI, RCA and Power all adds up, I have the same buying practice there too.

Now if someone want to give me $20k cables to try out, sure no problem I will try them. Or even $200 I will give them a shot and give my honest opinion. Don't think it would make that much of a difference on my system.

Hi mrloren:

Does it matter audibly that you have Polk Signature speakers and Marantz 5010 receivers, or would it matter even more if you had higher end speakers and something like a Parasound Halo integrated amp for a dedicated 2 channel set up?

It's the best I can afford,,, now a nice Halo oh my that poor 15 amp circuit would get a workout.

Yes it does matter I have heard some of the gear you guys talk about on here. Nice stuff man.

I do live within my means so I have my A4L Marantz and Signatures,

mikeyb128 · April 2017

Here's some to name a few.

mikeyb128 · April 2017

And another

Nightfall · April 2017

There have been times when swapping cables has made little or no difference to my ears and setup but also times where big differences were heard. I recently tried a pair of Cardas IC's in place of TOTL MIT StyleLine IC's between my preamp and amp and I really couldn't hear much if any of a difference. I think it just depends on your particular setup and the cables in question. I think I agree with Ron that just because a cable is more expensive doesn't mean it's going to be better in your particular setup, you need to try cables out for yourself. Buy used so you can recoup costs while trying different cables out. I've personally heard large sound stage differences though, so the thought that cable is cable isn't one I agree with overall.

mikeyb128 · April 2017

Anybody that doesn't think cables make a
Difference should attend a nordost power cable demo, or one of their USB demos. It's quite interesting.

Unknown · April 2017

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[Deleted User] · April 2017

USA never landed on the moon. It was staged cuz we HAD to beat the Russians there.

Gatecrasher · April 2017

I have to be honest that I've never been able to hear a difference between the speaker cables I've used but I never use anything smaller than 14 gauge stranded copper. I actually have some pretty-nice Monster and Canare wires that I am not even using right now because they really don't seem to sound any better than regular 12 gauge stranded copper speaker wire I am now using. They sure cost a lot more though. Not a lot of bang for the buck though as far as I can tell.

The fancy wires are nice though. They are definitely heavy-duty but other than that I haven't seen any improvement in sound.

I use higher-end RCA cables too but could never really tell any difference between them and the cheap ones that traditionally come with audio equipment. They look cooler though.

[Deleted User] · April 2017

Then you are truly lucky GC because this stuff gets expensive fast.

Unknown · April 2017

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txcoastal1 · April 2017

I honestly really don't give a shiite, about others opinions
I build my systems and do some tweaking
When you are into system for 10-20k+ a couple extra grand isn't nothing
I have every cable I have purchased over the last 10 years, have fun dialing it in, part of the hobby....so

FYI just bought some golf balls, they are guaranteed out of the box to fly straight 600yards

Gatecrasher · April 2017

rednedtugent wrote: »

Then you are truly lucky GC because this stuff gets expensive fast.

Well I try to be as open-minded and objective as possible. I'm an engineer and a statistics geek and strive to take as much of the emotion out of the decision-making process as possible by letting the numbers do the talking.

It's nothing personal here. Show me the data.

DarqueKnight · April 2017

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Here's how people on this forum behave when others question their beliefs about speaker cables .....

I certainly have never acted that way. The way I behave when someone questions any of my beliefs is to outline my reasoning process, along with any supporting scientific documentation. I also ask the same of those questioning my beliefs.

Gatecrasher wrote: »

One thing I always felt was total BS was the theory that speaker wires start to sound better after they are "broken -in". I just can't buy that malarkey. Like the electrons start flowing better after they get used to the copper.

The electrons do not flow better. The noise performance of the cable improves due to less energy being absorbed from, and being released back into, the audio signal (from the insulation). I have done several studies, with oscilloscope measurements, of noise characteristics, of cables before and after break in.

Gatecrasher wrote: »

If it were true why wouldn't these high-end cable manufacturers break them in for the consumers in advance?

For the same reasons that shoe manufacturers don't break in shoes, car manufacturers don't break in cars, and speaker manufacturers don't break in speakers: it costs time and money and it is something the owner will do anyway by normal use of the product.

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Here's a naysayer: http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Hypocrite would be a better word. He uses Cardas wire in the speakers he sells.

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I actually do my own research instead of letting others do my thinking for me).

This is why so many people get suckered into adopting naysayer mindset: they are too lazy to do their own product comparison studies. For some people, it is very comforting to think that such studies are a waste of time because "electronics and cables all sound alike".

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

K_M reasonably asked that the truth claims of very expensive audio cables be proven by double blind tests and other evidence. The burden of proof is not on K_M, it is on The Cable Co. and other sellers of audio gear.

I asked how was it reasonable to use a test that has been scientifically proven to give erroneous results for the class of sensory stimuli that stereophonic audio is a member of.

I further asked for scientific justification for using blind/double blind tests when the peer reviewed sensory science literature, as well as the experimental work of the Bell Labs researchers who invented home stereo systems, indicated that trained listeners using descriptive tests was the correct method.

If a scientist invents a system, and then specifies a methodology for evaluating the performance of that system, and someone comes along a specifies an evaluation methodology in direct opposition to the inventor's...the opposing party must scientifically point out the errors in the inventor's methods as well as scientifically justify the proposed alternative.

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

They recommended spending up to 5% and beyond that money could be better spent in other areas to improve my audio system. Info on "What should I buy and why and how much should I spend?" is very helpful.

I can stay within the 5% benchmark at BJC and other vendors.

Did you question what the "5%" figure was based on? What was the experimental process that resulted in the 5% recommendation?

befuddle · April 2017

Yet another thread that became somewhat obscurely informative but more so entertainingly interesting given to the fact of the relative simplicity of the original op question!
From what should have been a somewhat straight forward answer has in its 10 page convolution addressed the virtues of expenditure on quality spk cable vs wire in relation to its use in a lower mid market system.Given rise to the merits of particular cable brand loyalties and cable tier reasons.Touched on the subject of shaving and it apparatus.Somewhat conservatively condemned Audioholics site for their knowledge base in the hobby, Debated for and against the value and need of blind testing in resolving possible bias issues in comparative product evaluations.And once again reiterated the somewhat moot point that cable matters from a perspective that from what i gathered wasn't even in question and that has now somehow again become relevant again!
AS to the originally posted question-Not being a audiophile or even a avid enthusiast I may not be equipped with the satisfactorily amount of knowledge or expertise to justify my recommendation to the op,But however from what i have read on the subject suggests that by going with a thicker gauge from a reputable manufacture using quality construction methods you may find in laymen's terms to derive at a slightly fuller clearer snd with a deeper bass extension.The value of this limited increase would naturally need to be determined by your time expense and difficulty in making the change over.
However if your using a amp and frt spks of a decent quality and your not limited in amp placement by room design ,esthetics and or user functionality it would be advisable to move the amp near the spks to shorten the wire runs to allow the opportunity to gain a performance increase through the use of higher performance spk cable,Also if the amp is equipped with pre out jacks powering the frt spks with a power amp of decent quality will greatly improve musical performance in comparison to the av amp.However in cable choice due diligence in researching recommendations may be prudent as the level of performance gain is acquainted to the design construction best suited to match the system used and may prove to cost restrictive to obtain the best results,Therefore it can prove somewhat taxing to find a brand within a certain price point that will allow for the best performance gain of the given system

Gatecrasher · April 2017

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Here's how people on this forum behave when others question their beliefs about speaker cables .....

I certainly have never acted that way. The way I behave when someone questions any of my beliefs is to outline my reasoning process, along with any supporting scientific documentation. I also ask the same of those questioning my beliefs.

Just because you provide more than pure opinion doesn't necessarily mean I trust your data, but I do give you credit for the effort. I think there is room for error in your logic but value what you are saying.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

One thing I always felt was total BS was the theory that speaker wires start to sound better after they are "broken -in". I just can't buy that malarkey. Like the electrons start flowing better after they get used to the copper.

The electrons do not flow better. The noise performance of the cable improves due to less energy being absorbed from, and being released back into, the audio signal (from the insulation). I have done several studies, with oscilloscope measurements, of noise characteristics, of cables before and after break in.

I don't think that the test you did was definitive as to how that translates to an audible difference. It may show there is some difference but if I can't hear the difference I have a hard time believing it is a meaningful experiment. Are you sure your results aren't biased? You sure sound like you want to believe. Again I applaud the effort but there have been other tests disputing yours. Who's are we to believe if we can't hear a difference?

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

If it were true why wouldn't these high-end cable manufacturers break them in for the consumers in advance?

For the same reasons that shoe manufacturers don't break in shoes, car manufacturers don't break in cars, and speaker manufacturers don't break in speakers: it costs time and money and it is something the owner will do anyway by normal use of the product.

So I guess by that logic used speaker wire is more valuable than brand-new? If there was any noticeable difference in sound quality I'd tend to think that it would be common knowledge and audiophiles would be willing to spend more money for old used cables than new ones. Again, as an engineer (and somewhat of an electronics buff) I'm not sold on this one least of all and am more prone to believe it is a total wives tale at best.

But you are entitled to your own opinion and it is a breath of fresh air to hear a response like yours vs some of the others. No personal attack like we've all become accustomed to receiving from F1 and no ridiculous references to legal burden of proof for those who dare to question something that appears to be highly subjective at best.

F1nut · April 2017

I do not respect you or your opinions because you haven't earned either, hence my blunt responses to your nonsense, which started from day one and hasn't changed. In addition, you've shown no interest in becoming part of this group, so you're reaping what you've sown.

txcoastal1 · April 2017

Well, next time I set up a public gig to demo....I'll buy you a plane ticket Gatecrasher

If you don't show, the burden of proof is on your hands

befuddle · April 2017

Yet another thread that has become somewhat obscurely informative,but more so entertainingly interesting given to the fact of the rather simplicity of the original posters question.
From what should have been a relatively straight forward question,has in it 10 page convolution addressed the virtues of expenditure on quality spk cable vs wire in relation to its use in a mid low market system.Gave rise to the merits of particular brand loyalties and cable tier reasons,Touched on the subject of shaving and it apparatus,Somewhat conservatively condemned Audioholics web site for their knowledge base in the hobby.Debated the value and need of blind testing in resolving possible bias issues in product evaluations,And once again reiterated the somewhat moot point that cable matters from a perspective that from what i gathered wasn't even in question,and that has now somehow become of relevance once again!
As to the originally posted question-Not being a audiophile or even a avid enthusiast i may not be equipped to satisfactorily answer given my level of knowledge and expertise,But from what i have read-on the subject using a thicker gauge from a reputable manufacturer using quality construction material may derive in laymen's term a sightly fuller clearer snd and a deeper bass extension.The value of this limited increase would naturally need to be determined by the expense time and difficulty of the change over,
However if the amp and frt spks are of decent quality and your not limited in amp placement by room layout, esthetics and or user functionality it would be advisable to move the amp nearer to the frt spks to allow for shorter wire runs and allow for the opportunity to use performance cable instead of wire.Also if the amp has pre out jacks it would be recommendable to use a decent quality power amp for the frt spks to greatly improve the musical performance as apposed to the av amp alone.However in cable choice some diligence to research recommendations may be prudent as the level of performance increase is acquainted to the design construction best suited to match the system used and may prove to cost restrictive to obtain the best results.Therefore it could potentially prove taxing to find a set of cables within a given price point that will allow for the best performance of the given system

Unknown · April 2017

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mrloren · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi mrloren:

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way about your set-ups. What you have is more than plenty to enjoy the music and the movies and have a great listening experience. Enjoy!

it's cool

txcoastal1 · April 2017

befuddle wrote: »

Therefore it could potentially prove taxing to find a set of cables within a given price point that will allow for the best performance of the given system

All mentioned above is basically the jist.
If you are looking for good quality and have purchased good quality gear you are probably at bliss. The ones of us who bark, self included have gone to the extreme as anyone who takes any hobby serious.

I'm in electronics by trade, have always been a gadget freak, I even take it into my hunting and fishing. No different than any other hobby enthusiasts.

It's just toys we like to play with and like to squeeze every drop of juice out of the orange.

Gatecrasher · April 2017

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

rednedtugent wrote: »

Then you are truly lucky GC because this stuff gets expensive fast.

Well I try to be as open-minded and objective as possible. I'm an engineer and a statistics geek and strive to take as much of the emotion out of the decision-making process as possible by letting the numbers do the talking.

It's nothing personal here. Show me the data.

Here, start here. A few simple articles on dielectric conditioning. Unless of course, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers isn't considered a viable resource by you. I mean they are no Roger Russell and all they do is provide the code that electrical and electronics engineers are supposed to adhere to...but they do have some OK info now and then.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=solid+dielectric+conditioning&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBp5-VvZvTAhXH34MKHb73Aa8QgQMIGDAA

http://www.ieee.org/searchresults/index.html?cx=006539740418318249752:f2h38l7gvis&cof=FORID:11&qp=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=dielectric+conditioning

I used to belong to the IEEE in college. I belonged to the SME for a while too and was chapter president of the SPE too. I majored in Electrical Engineering for a year before I switched to Mechanical Engineering. I was also a Ham Radio operator at age 13 so i know a little bit about electronics. This is a better response than your previous ones though.

However interesting these articles you Googled appear to be, this really doesn't appear to translate to an audible difference in audio cables. When I presented the link that you automatically discounted (because it didn't fit your belief), I was only demonstrating that for every hocus-pocus article out there claiming that super-expensive audio cables provide a night and day difference in audio quality, there are just as many that say otherwise - not that the article was any kind of definitive proof of anything. I'm still on the fence as to whether there is even a slight amount of difference between similar gauge copper wires for audio cables.

Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

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