12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

txcoastal1

Gatecrasher wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum then?

Gate,
The problem is every new OP that asks about cables is ran off the forum listening to these debates. All we do is recommend a few cables and the the naysayers come swarming in. All we ask is try it out for themselves w/o all the bs. OP's can do there own research. Naysayers do hawk threads like these and don't deny.

F1nut

K_M wrote: »

vmaxer wrote: »

Everything matters. Including cables.

except......... bias, expectations, and post purchase rationalization?

I am not sure you can have it both ways.
Everything matters, but just conveniently not the things one thinks does not matter?

Those right there are extraordinary claims. Burden of proof is on you.

F1nut

tonyb wrote: »

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

Of course not. There wasn't a single one that signed up for the MIT cable demos either.

heiney9

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

Hi Tony:

Maybe some that have not responded are happy with their sound and find it difficult to spend $700 on a pair of speaker wires. For many folks, especially young people with families, there is plenty of competition for the limited discretionary dollar. That $700 could also be spent on an oppo disc player and 5 or 6 blu ray discs, or one could take their sweetheart out for a nice weekend get a way.

For some couples, one is into audio and the other is not. The speaker wires then would provide yet another chance to quarrel over money. Maybe the guy just got out of the dog house with his wife and he says to himself, "Should I bring up the $700 speaker wires again?" And discretion then becomes the better part of valor and he puts his sword away and sues for peace with a nice box of chocolates, a dozen roses, and a night on the town. If he keeps this good behavior up for a few months and banks all of these roll over minutes, just then and only then he can strike at his wife's soft underbelly and say, "Honey, those designer speaker cables would just look lovely in our living room." With the right strategy, all things are possible.

I'm retired, disabled, and housebound and $700 is about three or four months of savings. I would rather buy the oppo than the speaker wires. My 15 year DVD player just died and a Blu Ray disc player is on my shopping list. I'm about two to three years away from buying such speaker wires. There are many life reasons why people do not pop for $700 speaker wires.

Perhaps if I go to the Indian Casino near my home and steal from their one arm bandit.... I then can visit Shangri-la and also get the speaker cables. BTW, the phonetic spelling of Shangri-la is: Ha Why EEEEE!

It doesn't cost $700 to demo the cables. If you can't/don't want to spend the money why are you here debating whether cables matter or not?

H9

heiney9

F1nut wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

Of course not. There wasn't a single one that signed up for the MIT cable demos either.

I would think this would be the perfect opportunity for the naysayers to set up their double blind testing and school all of us that know cables matter.

I guess they're to obfuscated to even realize when a golden opportunity arises to really bolster their POV..........

..............oh wait, they are just parroting and have ZERO interest in actually trying anything on their own to form their own opinion.

Typical

H9

Gatecrasher

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Gate,
The problem is every new OP that asks about cables is ran off the forum listening to these debates. All we do is recommend a few cables and the the naysayers come swarming in. All we ask is try it out for themselves w/o all the bs. OP's can do there own research. Naysayers do hawk threads like these and don't deny.

The OP asked if he would be able to hear a difference between the 16 gauge wires he is currently using and a new set of 12 gauge wires. This thread had been diverged into the realm of other more expensive wires long before I chimed in.

If you read my posts you'd see that have tried some different wires. Just like you I strive for the best sound. I have a real nice set of Monster M series bi-wire speaker cables that were over $500 and Monster M series subwoofer cables that were expensive too (although they weren't $5,000). A few years ago I posted the Canare wires I fabbed for my rears that were a few hundred bucks too.

All of them are real-nice and the quality is superior to plain audio cables but I didn't really hear any difference. Maybe ZLTFUL is right? With my crappy old Polks I won't be able to hear a difference? Maybe it takes really expensive brand-new speakers?

Actually I think he was just being mean. I don't know why other than maybe it was late and he was tired and just threw it out there?

Right now I am using Monster MC 12 gauge cable. Nothing fancy other than the larger gauge. My more expensive wires are sitting in the closet. I did a comparison a few months ago in stereo mode to see if I could really hear a difference and couldn't.

That's all I'm claiming. I have yet to try $5,000 cables.

As for the OP's original question? I doubt he'll really be able to tell a difference between his 16 gauge wires and 12 gauge unless maybe he is using some big power over long runs.

From my own experience that would be my expectation. I normally wouldn't expect a lot of difference but I may be wrong. There are some other variables involved as others have noted such as all 16 gauge and 12 gauge wires are not created equal. He may have crappy 16 gauge wires and by switching to good 12 gauge he might experience an improvement.

heiney9

Monster Z is as bad as the generic stuff you get at all these places. I initially used that for the SDA connection cable years ago. I've since used Canare and it was a noticeable improvement.

I got the Monster for free so it's not like I had any ideas about it costing me more therefore it has to sound better. The main reason I replaced it was the green oxidation running 6-8" from the ends under the clear sheath. Figured that can't be good. This was probably about 9-10 years ago.

H9

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heiney9

Kingkwas wrote: »

Just realized my install company used 16 gauge speaker wire. Thinking of replacing with 12 gauge wire. Listen to stereo and HT

Is it worth it? Will there be a difference?

Thx!

No difference,

No, thank you

H9

heiney9

Mr. Reindeer.

Go back through the thread, you most certainly have debated as you have stated your opinion (one based on readings) about cables. Also you have stated what you believe "common sense" is the best way to choose cables.

K_M

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Not agreeing with someone isn't a personal attack. It's my own opinion based on my own experience and other information just like you have you have yours. I'm skeptical about stuff like this that's all (and I am not the only one who is).

I would guess that maybe 90% of the forum agree with your view.
I would also guess they simply avoid posting their view, as they feel the more "Pro-cable" view is very angry and calls people names to make their point.

Some are quite eloquent and make great points.
Most want to avoid the Bickering, and just ignore the discussion.

nooshinjohn

Gatecrasher wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum?.

Your actions in this thread are trolling. You have stated your point of view. You are trying to convince others that you are correct by only stating that other people's PERSONAL experiensce is wrong(that can be seen as attacking them),and continue to do so. We don't care at all that you don't hear a difference in something you have zero desire to try. We do care that you see it as a personal crusade to belittle the experiences of others.

I don't care if you quit and go somewhere else or not. There are forums that your personal beliefs are not only supported, they are encouraged. Here, we expect an open mind to the experience of others. I don't care what you do, because it is back to the ignore list for you...

heiney9

It's like saying "strawberries taste wonderful", I read that in several magazines, my neighbor told me that. I studied the molecular make up of strawberries and it shows that they taste good because of the measured amounts of sugar, pectin and moisture.

However I've never, ever tried or even smelled a strawberry, but I can assure you based on common sense and what others have said that they taste great, better than any other fruit or berry regardless of price.

vs.

I have tried strawberries, peaches and blueberries in several different forms and recipes and I prefer blueberries. I tried to like the others but the blueberries were the clear winner based on taste, mouth feel and availability.

Scenario 1 is most cable naysayers
Scenario 2 is most cable advocates.

H9

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heiney9

Donner, it's all good. We all veer off the path of the original thread theme. It's all still cable related, but just not within the narrow scope of the initial thread starter.

H9

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Not agreeing with someone isn't a personal attack. It's my own opinion based on my own experience and other information just like you have you have yours. I'm skeptical about stuff like this that's all (and I am not the only one who is).

I would guess that maybe 90% of the forum agree with your view.

What did you base that on? Your own biases, or just the ones that respond to your whiny PM's?

I don't pretend to know the exact number, but I've been here 12 years and it'sm uch lower than 90%, this isn't Audioholics.

I'd say of the make up now it's closer to 50-60% and if you are talking about regular contributors, you can cut that in 1/2 and that's probably a bit high.

I think back over the 12 years or so, I was a bit of a cable noob until I found out for myself. I can think of a lot of people who finally tried cables for themselves and actually realized they matter, even though they thought they already knew the answer.

Some were particularly stubborn like Joey_V

H9

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

It's like saying "strawberries taste wonderful", I read that in several magazines, my neighbor told me that. I studied the molecular make up of strawberries and it shows that they taste good because of the measured amounts of sugar, pectin and moisture.

However I've never, ever tried or even smelled a strawberry, but I can assure you based on common sense and what others have said that they taste great, better than any other more expensive berry.

vs.

I have tried strawberries, peaches and blueberries in several different forms and recipes and I prefer blueberries. I tried to like the others but the blueberries were the clear winner based on taste, mouth feel and availability.

Scenario 1 is most cable naysayers
Scenario 2 is most cable advocates.

H9

Not even remotely close.....

Cable advocates are unable to identify cables when unaware.
That leaves open the possibility, of bias, expectation and all that stuff.

Cable naysayers are simply pointing out something obvious.

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

It's like saying "strawberries taste wonderful", I read that in several magazines, my neighbor told me that. I studied the molecular make up of strawberries and it shows that they taste good because of the measured amounts of sugar, pectin and moisture.

However I've never, ever tried or even smelled a strawberry, but I can assure you based on common sense and what others have said that they taste great, better than any other more expensive berry.

vs.

I have tried strawberries, peaches and blueberries in several different forms and recipes and I prefer blueberries. I tried to like the others but the blueberries were the clear winner based on taste, mouth feel and availability.

Scenario 1 is most cable naysayers
Scenario 2 is most cable advocates.

H9

Not even remotely close.....

Cable advocates are unable to identify cables when unaware.
That leaves open the possibility, of bias, expectation and all that stuff.

Cable naysayers are simply pointing out something obvious.

So now we've gone on to use the word "obvious" to describe how to choose something.

Who says we are unable to identify cables when unaware?

You really have no clue how ridiculous you sound.

H9

heiney9

Is it possible in your zeal to make sure you yourself aren't relying on biases that you are over compensating and making crazy, off the wall statements that are totally irrelevant?

Or do you perceive yourself to be completely bias neutral so you can speak ridiculousness as if it's some kind of scholarly postulate?

H9

K_M

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum?.

Your actions in this thread are trolling. You have stated your point of view. You are trying to convince others that you are correct by only stating that other people's PERSONAL experiensce is wrong(that can be seen as attacking them),and continue to do so. We don't care at all that you don't hear a difference in something you have zero desire to try. We do care that you see it as a personal crusade to belittle the experiences of others.

Personal experiences are wrong a lot of the time though.

Seeing that as an attack though, would seem to imply someone is above being wrong.

Ex; Someone says Cable A sounds much better than Cable B.

When faced with the same 2 cables but unaware of which one is connected, they find it hard to decide which is which.

Was their initial comparison still right?

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum?.

Your actions in this thread are trolling. You have stated your point of view. You are trying to convince others that you are correct by only stating that other people's PERSONAL experiensce is wrong(that can be seen as attacking them),and continue to do so. We don't care at all that you don't hear a difference in something you have zero desire to try. We do care that you see it as a personal crusade to belittle the experiences of others.

Personal experiences are wrong a lot of the time though.

This is the most ludicrous thing I think you have posted. How can you believe that? What kind of reality do you live in?

You do realize that the people and websites that align with your cable view are relating their personal experiences to you and you are relying on their personal experiences to form a point of view?

I mean.............wow, just wow.

I live in the reality, where most people realize bias, and expectations and sometimes shiny silver color or Price, or things other people told them, can INFLUENCE what they hear.

If you believe you are immune to all of these, what world are you living in?

Unknown

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F1nut

K_M wrote: »

Personal experiences are wrong a lot of the time though.

LMAO........out of all the ridiculous comments you've made here that one takes the cake.

txcoastal1

K_M, what real life experience do you have with cables? What cables do you use?

txcoastal1

K_M wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Personal experiences are wrong a lot of the time though.

LMAO........out of all the ridiculous comments you've made here that one takes the cake.

Human perceptions and subjective choices are very often wrong or colored by bias or other indirect factors.

Maybe so but that has no bearing on whether or not someone can hear changes in a system. If it sounds one way and cables are changed out (no price tag included) and it sounds different (better or worse), then it does sound different.

These changes can even be seen on scopes and analyzers

heiney9

It reads as if these same concepts aren't applicable to her, only the people she perceives to be wrong.

I have never stated that I am bias free or that bias isn't an issue. But my stance is biases can be trained away and learn to be minimized.

She must believe that or she herself would be at the mercy of the same biases heavily influencing her decisions as well, and since heavy bias = wrong in her world she must have trained herself to minimize those biases or by her definition she'd be wrong.

H9

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

It reads as if these same concepts aren't applicable to her, only the people she perceives to be wrong.

I have never stated that I am bias free or that bias isn't an issue. But my stance is biases can be trained away and learn to be minimized.

She must believe that or she herself would be at the mercy of the same biases heavily influencing her decisions as well, and since heavy bias = wrong in her world she must have trained herself to minimize those biases or by her definition she'd be wrong.

H9

We all have biases etc. All.
I will agree with you about minimizing biases, but again, one one way to be sure...

Why not remove bias with an unsighted (meaning not aware of product) and really go for the gold?

I was proven wrong when I did a blind test. I was upset, mad, figured it must be wrong, but after some thinking, conceded I was simply wrong.

heiney9

Because as DK has linked and done his own extensive research, double blind tests aren't the most appropriate method for discerning between stereophonic recordings.

These are peer reviewed, academic accepted study's......the kind of studys you naysayers are always squawking about. Except you won't accept them.

I don't need to do a double blind test to hear a difference. And to me it doesn't matter of price, looks or any other superficial factor.

H9

DarqueKnight

K_M wrote: »

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

K_M wrote: »

I will make this VERY to the point, as I feel there is truly very little to this whole debate/argument.

No claim, is more than a claim to me, until it is verified.
That is NOT to insult anyone, or doubt their experience, or say they are wrong.

Simply some require more than a claim, anecdote or comparison sighted.

Proof of extraordinary claims falls to the one making the claim.
I am making no claims.

Yes, you are making the following claims:

1. You are claiming that human bias is so overwhelming and mindbending that the EFFECTS of bias cannot be removed by training.

2. You are claiming that blind testing is to ONLY way to remove the effects of bias.

3. You are claiming that the inventors of home stereo systems were wrong when they specified the methods of evaluating stereo systems should be based on training in sound localization and sound quality measurement.

You said "proof of extraordinary clams falls to the one making the claim".

Dr. Harvey Fletcher and his colleagues at Bell Laboratories, who invented home stereo systems, claimed the following:

"Critical listeners were sought in these tests because of a desire to set permanent standards. At the moment, only a small percentage of people fully appreciate high fidelity. Even less appreciate or understand stereo. However, there is a growing sophistication evidenced among users of stereo equipment. Anticipating the future, it seemed wise to avoid naive or unconcerned personnel in these tests to prevent establishing loose standards which eventually might have to be abandoned.

The listeners chosen were sophisticated in the art of sound localization either by working in this field or by education before testing. They were felt to be the equal of any serious listener who is accustomed to playing the same records many times and thus becomes familiar with the more subtle artistic and technical effects."


Citation: Harvey, F. K. and Schroeder, M. R., "Subjective Evaluation of Factors Affecting Two-Channel Stereophony", Journal of The Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 9, No. 1, January 1961, pp. 19-28.

Two principles from the field of sensory science pertain to stereo audio evaluation:

1. A thing must be tested in a manner accurately representative of the way it will be used.

2. Sensory evaluations must be conducted in a manner that does not prevent or diminish relevant sensory stimuli from reaching the subject.

References

1. Lawless, H. T. and Heymann H., "Sensory Evaluation of Food: Principles and Practices", pp. 79-100, 2010.

2. Ennis, D. M. and Mullen, K., "Theoretical Aspects of Sensory Discrimination", Chemical Senses, Vol. 11, No. 4, pp. 513–522, 1986.


Now, you @K_M, are making the extraordinary claim that the scientists who invented home stereo systems were wrong in specifying subjective tests with trained subjects. You are further making the extraordinary claim that stereophonic audio, which is multidimensional in nature, is best tested by forced choice discrimination methods, such as A/B and A/B/X.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the Bell Labs researchers were in error and that the sensory science researchers, who specified descriptive tests for multidimensional stimuli, were in error.

You continually carp about doing a blind test and finding no differences in what you evaluated. When asked to provide details of the test and how it was structured, you refused. You continually carp about people not being able to find audible differences in stereo equipment when blind tested, yet you have not posted a single credible example of a blind test that was based on evaluating stereophonic performance parameters by properly trained subjects.

pitdogg2

heiney9 wrote: »

I think back over the 12 years or so, I was a bit of a cable noob until I found out for myself. I can think of a lot of people who finally tried cables for themselves and actually realized they matter, even though they thought they already knew the answer.

Some were particularly stubborn like Joey_V

H9

Yes there you go. I too have tried some, no I didn't spend a fortune. I bought used either here or other places. Some I really wanted to be my end cable as others had really liked them. Unfortunately some it really was a degrade for me. I posted a link earlier. The person who bought one cable was a skeptic yet found for them it did make a difference. Others brought nothing to the table, so with those should I have just quit and said "well just as I thought no difference" no some I kept and are still using in other rigs, but I still try different cables if the PRICE IS RIGHT FOR ME for me to try .

If you are just going to buy larger cable that has a clear or slightly colored jacket save your money. I have bought much of the stuff from many different manufactures and all of it over time corroded inside the jacket and BADLY affected the sound. This corrosion isn't just close to the ends some was 10+ feet from an end or more. Something in those jackets badly affects the wire in time. I have only one clear/amber like jacket cable that also never has been affected by corrosion. It's Phoenix Gold I bought almost 35 yrs ago One of the original large wire companies that came out about the same time as Monster Cable.

Canare is great wire for the price easy to pull, lays nice jacket within a jacket with cotton filler and I have yet to have any corrosion problems going on 20yrs with some. It is nothing to write home about but it is much better than Home Depot or others like Parts Express. Many other companies use it as their signature "ultra cable" so it does have a good reputation.