12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

heiney9

So then because you say differences don't exist, you being a random person on an audio board, like you've categorized those of us cable advocates, then said subjects are supposed to believe you and some how make a more informed choice or decision?

That's BS, you can't in one breath dismiss our views and experiences because it's questionable to you, and then in another breath expect your POV to be taken as any better?

Why is your POV to be more relied upon than my POV? That's basically what you are saying. You have no proof that our experiences don't exist, yet you want your POV to be the reigning POV, even though you have no proof.

You are demanding we prove our experiences, go back and re-read your responses. You can't be that illiterate to not even remember what you wrote when all you have to do is scroll back to see.

I see, now you qualified it with "high priced cable purchase", before it was cables in general. What's high priced to you? I am sure we as a group are all over the board as to what "high priced" is. Is it better then if I buy "high priced" cables at a huge discount. Will my experiences then align with yours and you'll be copacetic because I didn't spend on "high priced" cables, but got high priced cables at a fraction of the cost? Does that somehow validate your POV?

H9

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

You mean like the claims you make that your husband is a high end, top notch speaker designer, yet offer no proof despite being asked to do so repeatedly?

In fact, you have never offered anything of substance, yet come here demanding others to do so. What amuses me most is how every time you go down that road you end up face first in the mud.

Okay you are free to not believe anything I say at all.
I am fine with that.

I am not demanding anyone prove anything.
Merely stating that without more verifiable proof, some things are questionable.

Basing a high priced cable purchase on possibly biased comments from random people on an audio board, is not most likely the best way of making a purchase or decision.

So if I recommend "low priced" cables (whatever that is to you), then my comments are no longer biased and questionable & that is a better way for someone to make a purchase decision?

So your threshold of what constitutes low or high priced cables is the deciding factor?

DK, has given numerous links and ideas why blind comparisons are questionable. But I bet since that didn't align with your argument you didn't read them, or feigned the ability to find said links

F1nut

K_M wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

You mean like the claims you make that your husband is a high end, top notch speaker designer, yet offer no proof despite being asked to do so repeatedly?

In fact, you have never offered anything of substance, yet come here demanding others to do so. What amuses me most is how every time you go down that road you end up face first in the mud.

Okay you are free to not believe anything I say at all.
I am fine with that.

I am not demanding anyone prove anything.
Merely stating that without more verifiable proof, some things are questionable.

Basing a high priced cable purchase on possibly biased comments from random people on an audio board, is not most likely the best way of making a purchase or decision.
Most seem have very low standards of proof.
That is not a slam or dig at anyone, but frankly amazing.
I see little to no mention of blind testing, or anything that would give some veracity to a comparison.

Again I am not demanding, but simply amused at the means. A simple observation.

Once again, you've side stepped. You still have not provided any proof of....well. anything. You keep telling people that your alleged husband is a hot shot speaker designer, yet refuse to provide any information about it. What and why are you hiding that. Is it even the truth? It certainly calls into question the validity of anything you have to say about this hobby.

Speaking of cables, I cannot recall you ever mentioning your experiences with them or what you use today. What and why are you hiding that? Do you have experience with anything other than lamp cord and if so, exactly what?

Here's a mention of blind testing. I listen with my eyes closed.

F1nut

I would like to point out that I did recommend to the reindeer guy that he buy cable from Home Depot and be happy. Does that advice meet with your approval KM or does blind testing need to be performed?

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K_M

You guys are missing one fundamental thing.

One making a claim that is out of the ordinary (most or much of the speaker cable claims would tend to fall into that category) to prove their claim, or it remains questionable.

"Speaker Cable X does this"

Someone gullible person says "Where do I buy it??"

Someone not gullible says "And how are you sure?"

I do not see much explaining about how people are sure.
I see a lot of name calling,
telling people they are not credible,
telling people.. try it you will see,
just trust me, and so on.
Blind tests are questionable
Here come the naysayers
How dare you tell me what I can hear or not....

txcoastal1

K_M wrote: »

You guys are missing one fundamental thing.

One making a claim that is out of the ordinary (most or much of the speaker cable claims would tend to fall into that category) to prove their claim, or it remains questionable.

"Speaker Cable X does this"

Someone gullible person says "Where do I buy it??"

Someone not gullible says "And how are you sure?"

I do not see much explaining about how people are sure.

Because I and others have specifically demo'ed, and you would have had to been tone deaf not to hear what was going on. Like I said, if you had shown up to LSAF I would have shown you in person what what augmentations were created by swapping out interconnects.


I see a lot of name calling,
telling people they are not credible,
telling people.. try it you will see,
just trust me, and so on.
Blind tests are questionable
Here come the naysayers
How dare you tell me what I can hear or not....

K_M

txcoastal1 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

You guys are missing one fundamental thing.

One making a claim that is out of the ordinary (most or much of the speaker cable claims would tend to fall into that category) to prove their claim, or it remains questionable.

"Speaker Cable X does this"

Someone gullible person says "Where do I buy it??"

Someone not gullible says "And how are you sure?"

I do not see much explaining about how people are sure.

Because I and others have specifically demo'ed, and you would have had to been tone deaf not to hear what was going on. Like I said, if you had shown up to LSAF I would have shown you in person what what augmentations were created by swapping out interconnects.

Because I and others have specifically demo'ed, and you would have had to been tone deaf not to hear what was going on. Like I said, if you had shown up to LSAF I would have shown you in person what what augmentations were created by swapping out interconnects.

Okay, so there were significant differences.....from the sounds of your description.
Then they would be instantly verifiable under blind testing correct?

K_M

F1nut wrote: »

I would like to point out that I did recommend to the reindeer guy that he buy cable from Home Depot and be happy. Does that advice meet with your approval KM or does blind testing need to be performed?

Fine with me.
Cable from Home Depot, is the normal standard to some extent.

txcoastal1

K_M wrote: »

txcoastal1 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

You guys are missing one fundamental thing.

One making a claim that is out of the ordinary (most or much of the speaker cable claims would tend to fall into that category) to prove their claim, or it remains questionable.

"Speaker Cable X does this"

Someone gullible person says "Where do I buy it??"

Someone not gullible says "And how are you sure?"

I do not see much explaining about how people are sure.

Because I and others have specifically demo'ed, and you would have had to been tone deaf not to hear what was going on. Like I said, if you had shown up to LSAF I would have shown you in person what what augmentations were created by swapping out interconnects.

Because I and others have specifically demo'ed, and you would have had to been tone deaf not to hear what was going on. Like I said, if you had shown up to LSAF I would have shown you in person what what augmentations were created by swapping out interconnects.

Okay, so there were significant differences.....from the sounds of your description.
Then they would be instantly verifiable under blind testing correct?

Absolutely, but only if you are familiar with the song

Below is one of the instances over the years, but one I retell because multiple people were involved. It was not a critical cable comparison, it was a stand out sound that occurred. Cable was tested, we even opened up another identical pair of the same.

I had been running music for a couple hours after getting set up. I was packing up moving out the crates. When we first noticed it, I thought I had a fouled tube. After that we started with the IC's didn't take long. The particular cable was causing sibilance, it was worse with female vocals than male. Heavy cymbals or violin would also drive you nuts.

It was any other cable, but that one kind in that system. I'm not going to call out what it was, because it did not do it on another rig that I have.

tonyb

Man, I wish I had a nickel for every cable debate we've had over the years.

Here's the bottom line....the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it to YOURSELF. I'll bet 99% of those who have tried various cables will admit they matter to at least some degree. 99% of those that say they don't matter, have never tried a variety of cables themselves, thus those opinions are invalid. I say "invalid" because...I can give you my opinion on building an airplane, though I've never actually done so. So who would even consider my opinion as anything other than Cat litter box liner.

Difference of course being....."Experience", wow, what a concept. To have experience requires you actually have to go out and try things. I know....some of you can't fathom it, and that's ok, if you want to stay put on your audio journey. Absolutely nothing wrong with being happy with what you have.

So those that want PROOF, one way or another, look in the mirror. The burden of proof has always been in your hands.

ZLTFUL

Actually, @K_M the burden of proof lies with the prosecution, not the defense.

Defense says, "Cables make a difference. You should try different things and see for yourself."

It lies on the person making the accusations that they *don't* (that's you in case you're confused) that has the burden of proof.

But I will go a step further. It is *your* responsibility to refute claims made by the defense with factual evidence.

And since you have not provided a single shred of evidence to the contrary, there is not a jury in this great country of ours that has been convinced, beyond a reasonable doubt, of your success in proving otherwise.

I now await your rebuttal of obfuscation, denial, deflection and sidestepping the argument.

(I am also curious to know which speakers your husband allegedly designed. You don't need to even name names. Just show some pictures. Besides helping you with your providence, I am genuinely curious.)

txcoastal1

ZLTFUL wrote: »

(I am also curious to know which speakers your husband allegedly designed. You don't need to even name names. Just show some pictures. Besides helping you with your providence, I am genuinely curious.)

How about a pic of a crossover, a schematic, parts list, just curious, done a little DIY

heiney9

I find nothing extraordinary when someone tries new cables and states "a veil has been lifted, singers are more forward, cymbals are crisper and soundstage is more defined and overall the sound is more cohesive"

That is not my definition of "extraordinary"

H9

heiney9

txcoastal1 wrote: »

ZLTFUL wrote: »

(I am also curious to know which speakers your husband allegedly designed. You don't need to even name names. Just show some pictures. Besides helping you with your providence, I am genuinely curious.)

How about a pic of a crossover, a schematic, parts list, just curious, done a little DIY

I predict more deflection coming, like they are proprietary, or he can't share them publically, or it's nothing we'd understand or ????

Unknown

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heiney9

If you aren't willing to put in the time to learn and get experience, then you have no business commenting on it, or trying to make your views heard.........you have no view besides the made up one in your mind.

Mr. Reindeer you have a LOT to learn in this hobby and having a closed mind will get you nowhere. If you are happy with what you have, then be happy. Don't try and come here and expound about stuff you have no experience with, you are looking very foolish.

End of story

H9

F1nut

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

To listen to all the plethora of different cables and then do A verses B tests is a quest not even Don Quixote would accept. Besides the cost of doing so, the time involved is beyond the abilities of most. Bill Gates may be able to afford 100 or more different million dollar estates in plush resort vacation spots around the world, but he lacks the time to actually enjoy them all. I have neither the means, the desire, nor the time to go to The Cable Company and do product evaluations on the hundreds of products in their catalog. Neither does Bill Gates. He may have the $, but the time? He probably could fund a double blind test project, but does he have the desire to do so? Maybe I'll send him an email.

K_M does not need to offer "proof" and should not be faulted for using common sense in this area. K_M is not an advocate for these products. We are not in a court of law. We are instead in a retail marketplace. When someone tells me that I should buy this or that product, that person has the burden of proof to tell me why and then offer compelling reasons. If tests are done on these cables, it would be interesting to do double blind tests on people that are evangelical advocates for them. The burden of proof is on the advocate of these products. They try to get others to pay very large sums of money for such mundane products as speaker wire/cables and RCA cables. They should be willing to do double blind tests. Lets see if they can pass the Pepsi challenge.

Been there, done that and have the T-shirt to prove it. You've got nothing, but lame excuses, so until you have the almost 50 years of playing with audio gear that I do please stop offering any advice on the matter.

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F1nut

Bozo listed

mhardy6647

lightman1 wrote: »

Kumbaya! Mothereffers!

Ditto! (or is it ibid.? or op. cit. or even loc. cit.?).

I mean, "we're" (i.e., all y'all're) talking about wire and how people spend their own money.

My experience is that essentially all hifis sound much better with wires than without them (Bluetooth notwitstanding) and folks spend their money on pretty much whatever they wish to.

txcoastal1

The problem is the naysayers come in here and try to tell us we wasted money, can't hear things, and if we say we've heard changes that we need to prove it. I will never tell you that a $2000 cables is better than a $500 cable because I've heard $500 cables beat a $2000 cable and vice versa pending on a system.

Gatecrasher

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Actually, @K_M the burden of proof lies with the prosecution, not the defense.

Defense says, "Cables make a difference. You should try different things and see for yourself."

It lies on the person making the accusations that they *don't* (that's you in case you're confused) that has the burden of proof.

Uhhh.... I think you have it backwards. He is not saying cables don't matter. Quite the contrary. You and others on here are claiming they do matter with little to nothing in the way of real data to support your claims other than basically opinion.

So the burden of proof is 100% on you unless you expect everyone to just agree with you because of you post count or something. lol

While I might tend to agree with you in theory, there are a lot on here who seem to be more than willing to jump on just about any bandwagon when it comes to stuff like this with really nothing in the way of unbiased data. Most of us need a little more than just opinion before we are 100% onboard. Audio shouldn't have to be a faith-based science.

BlueFox

Just to muddy the waters a bit, while all cables matter, I have found that power cables give me the biggest improvement versus ICs and speaker cables. Along that line, a good power conditioner and power cables are like upgrading a component. Of course, since power is a component then that makes sense.

ZLTFUL

Gatecrasher wrote: »

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Actually, @K_M the burden of proof lies with the prosecution, not the defense.

Defense says, "Cables make a difference. You should try different things and see for yourself."

It lies on the person making the accusations that they *don't* (that's you in case you're confused) that has the burden of proof.

Uhhh.... I think you have it backwards. He is not saying cables don't matter. Quite the contrary. You and others on here are claiming they do matter with little to nothing in the way of real data to support your claims other than basically opinion.

So the burden of proof is 100% on you unless you expect everyone to just agree with you because of you post count or something. lol

While I might tend to agree with you in theory, there are a lot on here who seem to be more than willing to jump on just about any bandwagon when it comes to stuff like this with really nothing in the way of unbiased data. Most of us need a little more than just opinion before we are 100% onboard. Audio shouldn't have to be a faith-based science.

Uh...show me where, in this thread, I made any claims. I can wait, because you can't.

Someone said "cables make a difference" and K_M (a she btw, not a he) has said in about 3 dozen different threads that cables do not make a difference in double blind tests. That is fact. Not opinion.

Perhaps you aren't familiar with how the legal system works in the USA. But here is a brief definition of burden of proof...

The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the duty of a party in a trial to produce the evidence that will shift the conclusion away from the default position, to that party's own position. In a legal dispute, one party is initially presumed to be correct and gets the benefit of the doubt, while the other side bears the burden of proof. When a party bearing the burden of proof meets their burden, the burden of proof switches to the other side.

Translated, around here, the default position held by the vast majority of the membership is that cables do indeed make a difference regardless of expectation bias, double blind testing or any other easily refuted claim.
Thus, the burden of proof falls on those claiming that they don't.

Obfuscate on.


As for Reindeer guy's claim that he can't try 5872084935097593249823 different cables, nobody has said to do so or even suggested that.
It is easy and affordable to try out a few different options...his Mediabridge cable, lamp cord, Audioquest FLX bulk cable, Canare bulk...all around the same pricing and easily available.

Anyway, I can't help but wonder why people **** themselves over someone else spending their own money how ever they see fit and feel the need to cluck their tongues if that doesn't agree with how THEY choose to spend theirs.

ZLTFUL

I will also point out that in these debates, @DarqueKnight has provided quite a few threads, links, et al to show why DBT is flawed in its own right when used in stereophonic evaluation.

When asked to provide the same information defending HER position, @K_M deflects, obfuscates and sidesteps instead of posting apparently readily available evidence to the contrary.

She also claims her husband is a renowned speaker designer...ok...so she is obviously proud of this fact but apparently not enough to post so much as a picture, link, schematic or even a name of the speakers he has designed.

F1nut

Why don't you do something positive around here for a change and give something back. We have a forum member, Toolfan66 with a very sick daughter in the hospital. You could send a card, flowers, etc. I'd be happy to provide her hospital info to you.

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mhardy6647

txcoastal1 wrote: »

The problem is the naysayers come in here and try to tell us we wasted money, can't hear things, and if we say we've heard changes that we need to prove it. I will never tell you that a $2000 cables is better than a $500 cable because I've heard $500 cables beat a $2000 cable and vice versa pending on a system.

(emphasis added)

Exactly so. It took me some years, to be frank & honest, to get over my own reverse snobbery about such things. Yeah, it is, at best, impolite. At worst, it's just plain foolish.
(EDIT: just to be unambiguous -- by "it", I mean "naysaying" as described in txcoastal1's quote)
By way of a sort of example. I know a guy in MA who can hear absolute phase (or do I mean polarity? That's another thread!). I, generally speaking, cannot. He diagnosed a single reversed polarity driver (not a woofer) at my house one day - correctly. That single (heh, anecdotal), empirical data point convinced me that I am in no position to pooh-pooh anyone's ability to "hear phase" (or polarity, for that matter).

ZLTFUL

Well you do a nice job of twisting my words and doing a wonderful job of applying appallingly inaccurate comparisons. Congratulations on again sidestepping and obfuscating. No wonder you take the word of Audioholics as gospel. It must be nice not having to do your own thinking (even though you try and deny).

You know how I came to the conclusion that I enjoy MIT cables in my system? I compared them in my own system to several options. MIT, Audioquest, Nordost, Canare, Liberty Wire and Cable (one of the original suppliers to Canare...see, I actually do my own research instead of letting others do my thinking for me).

What I discovered was that my MIT Terminators sound great when compared to those others. And guess what? I haven't spent over $100 for a pair of cables (and bought a 12/2 1000' roll of speaker cable for under $200 from Liberty)

One can't help but wonder why, if you think this forum is full of clueless people who take everything on faith, who "check their brains at the door", then why bother spending time here? Why not spend your time where your express views are not only agreed with but touted vehemently?