12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

gudnoyez

This is a good funny read, if the OP has the budget of either 12 or 16 guage then 12 guage it is. As to the dude that's still satisfied with the twin blades go try the shave club spring for the tripple blade ones you will be glad you did.

I currently own Wireworld Cables, MIT, Audioquest, and Signal and they all do a fine job to the application they are being used for. I assume If individuals are not happy with suggestions from others, they should stay away from threads that lead to such discussions. Then what do I know it's National Beer Day so I'm just celebrating and listening to tunes.

gudnoyez

What F1 partakes? Fast to judge are we, it is a speaker cable thread let's not take everyone's comments so seriously. I think this one is a what makes you happy thread go with it, plus a 12 guage over 16 guage is the better option answer to the OP's question he seeks.

gp4jesus

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

So, I asked how much I should spend on speaker wire and cables for a 3K, 5.1 home theater set-up...

How high up are you on the "satisfied to happy" scale* on your gear? BTW I moved higher* up same for under $100 over the last 7-8 months than the previous 6-7 years but that's another story.

Ask your self the following:
1. Are your speakers intended to work together? Same series, all channels?
2. Power - got enough quality power? Especially across the front?
3. Electronics matched? Using a late model Oppo w/a mid line AVR...
4. ...in a 15 X 20 room (see item 2)
5. ...w/hard wood floors, patio doors, no area rugs or thick drapes

What I'm getting at: be a bit less concerned about what color you're gonna paint the house when you have yet to pour the foundation. I'm not down on cabling.

But if:
1. your acoustics stink or...
2. your LCR ain't matched or...
3. you're [trying to] drive power hungry towers [in nearly EVERY case, many on this thread have seen 100+ times over the last 5-6 years] w/an AVR...

I would get the the BIG stuff right first. Otherwise you'll NEVER hear what the "right color paint" would sound like.

Tony

gp4jesus

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Probably for the next few years, I will have 12 gauge copper speaker wires and better mid-fi cables.

Basically, I want to get to the best sound I can within a certain budget, and then be happy with what I have.

consider Blue Jeans. Hard to beat their 10 gauge at just over $1/ft shipped.

For a few bucks per run they'll do some real nice terminations - I like the lugs. Or take some measurements, allow 10% over & buy it in bulk. When you're satisfied the lengths are correct ship them back for their lugs or 'nanners, and enjoy!

Tony

Unknown

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mikeyb128

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi Tom:

For me, applying science evaluations and my own subjective evaluation is a "Both/and" proposition and is not "Either/or." Audioholics does "Both/and." They do subjective listening reviews and also electrical engineering evaluations.

There actually is real science at work in the audio industry. That science is often measurable. Polk Audio does "Both/and." Thankfully, my surge protector has real science behind it. Here in Tacoma, WA, my power got briefly knocked down (but not out!) and my computer lost power and rebooted. There are many subjective things I like about my computer, but they would not exist apart from science. Beware the false "either/or."

Science itself cannot explain everything. Especially things we know to be real and true in this world.

gudnoyez

Then why trade conversation with one another, it's a cable thread nothing to get worked up about, don't participate in forum chatter to those that don't agree with you it's not really that hard. With that being said enjoy your gear and the hobby, just remember not everyone shares the same opinions.

F1nut

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

gudnoyez wrote: »

What F1 partakes? Fast to judge are we, it is a speaker cable thread let's not take everyone's comments so seriously. I think this one is a what makes you happy thread go with it, plus a 12 guage over 16 guage is the better option answer to the OP's question he seeks.

Hi gudnoyez.

Thanks for sticking your nose into my business. I have only responded in kind to F1nut. If he had better table manners and did not find it necessary to make snarky, disrespectful remarks to me, I would not treat him like the smart alike that he is. You are sooo quick to judge me, but I did not start the mud slinging! F1nut not only treats me this way, I've observed this behavior by him in countless other threads. This is the man's normal MO at this forum. I'm not looking for you to stick up for me. Please mind your own business. OK, just for you, I will treat him like he does not deserve, I'll treat him with respect. Thank God he is not my next door "neighbor."

Allow me to point out the facts. You asked for help, but didn't like the answers because you are a naysayer and yes, you started the slinging. That is your problem, not mine. You deserve to be treated exactly as you have been. Maybe, just maybe if you opened your mind to the advice given you'd find yourself enjoying your rig more than you ever thought possible.

One other thing, I don't care if you respect me or not. I sleep very well at night.

F1nut

I'll share a little story with you about cables. I'm not an HT guy, really never had a use for much TV and only used the TV speakers. So, I won a pair of RTI A7's at a Polkfest charity raffle and I had no idea what I was going to do with them. So, I got to thinking and decided to build a dedicated HT rig. Got a new TV, an AVR, a Blu-ray player, a CSI A6, a pair of FXI A6's and a DSW Pro 660wi. Hooked it all up with generic 14 gauge and ran all the calibration stuff. Meh, sounded ok for TV, but not so good for movies. The sound was too bright/sharp. I then replaced the cables in the front with MIT Shotgun S3.3's and replaced all the power cords with PS Audio running through a nice PS Audio power conditioner. The sound quality improved dramatically! The only remaining issue was at higher volume levels the sound of breaking glass was like ice picks in my ears. I then upgraded the crossovers in the front 3 and later in the rears. That did it, the sound quality is extremely good now....dare I say excellent. God knows how much all the upgrades cost, certainly a significant amount, but it was worth every penny. I really enjoy watching a good movie now because it sounds great.

The moral of the story is cables make a difference and everything matters.

befuddle

F1 in some ways I pity you as years of intensively critical listening may have resulted in extraordinarily discerning hearing. Which leaves me to ponder if at some point in this hobby "ignorance is bliss" may become a prudent factor to consider!
And Lightman I admire and appreciate your honesty!!

mrbigbluelight

F1^^^^

In typical efficient and to the point F! fashion, he's condensed the 10 Commandments down to the most important 6.
I might have suggested including "Tubes Matter", but ......

Now DonnerundBlitzen, I think you might be going a little heavy on the Sturm und Drang. Careful, or the next thing you know you'll be marching into Poland !

mrbigbluelight

While I'm thinking of it ("Oh oh !"), I kind of think of Audioholics sort of like Consumer Reports. CR is okay for testing/reviewing washing machines and toasters, but not so hot on cars and electronics.

I don't care what Consumer Reports says, the AMC Pacer was NOT a breakthrough in automotive design, engineering, and reliability.

Some Audioholics reviews are the same way. Makes me think some of the 'experts' there graduated Summa C.u.m Deafly from the Helen Keller Institute.
I mean that in a good way.

EDIT: Vanilla censored

mrbigbluelight

befuddle wrote: »

And Lightman I admire and appreciate your honesty!!

Don't encourage him !

tonyb

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi Gatecrasher.

To paraphrase a comment I read about expensive speaker wires: "If you want your new, $1,000 speaker wires to sound better than your old $500 wires, they will!"

Just get the feeling! You gotta believe! "If you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are....... your dreams come true."

In this thread I've been told to both check my brain at the door and also I've been called ignorant simply because I refuse to drink the Kool Aide. I know their is much to learn, but the path to knowledge is not through irrationality.

But, if you think your new $5,000 speaker cables sound better than your previous $3,000 speaker cables, they do! Good for you, as long as it makes you happy and lightens your wallet and not mine. Somewhere, some speaker wire snake oil seller is sending their children to expensive private schools thanks to the true believers. You can buy all the snake oil you want. I'll pass and I will die a rational man.

Well now, your already biasing yourself instead of keeping an open mind. Does snake oil exist in audio ? Absolutely, nobody will argue that point, but it's a very broad brush to paint with. How do you decide which is, or isn't though ? Shouldn't that be the question ?

Aside from the obviously ridiculous, trial and error and your ears are the best judge of anything audio related. Many of us have been in this game for a very long time, we don't intentionally poo-poo things we've never heard because audio has many playing fields and we all can't play at the same level.

For instance, does a 20k amp sound better than a 5k amp ? I don't know, never heard a 20k amp, have you ? Do 5k speaker cables sound better than 3k speaker cables ? Have you heard either ? How can you judge if you haven't ?

In regards to science/reviews/testing.....that's all well and good up to a point but there is always something missing when reading this stuff from other forums/articles/web sites.....and that's your ears. You can't be objective if you think what others hear, or don't hear, would mirror what you would hear.

My understanding so far, is your using one system for both HT and music. That's fine, many do it including myself. You'll only get so far musically though in sound quality. Mostly due to the limitations of a HT receiver. If your fine with that, rock on, as long as your happy with the sound you have that's all that matters.

My own journey isn't much different than yours. Having had some nice 2 channel gear back when I had hair, getting married/kids, and HT came on the scene. Money was tight....always seems to be that way, and you use one system for both HT and music. Your happy for the time being because it's what you can afford. I always knew better though, and knew I wanted the old sound I was more accustomed to. So I slowly made changes when I could. Bought the speakers I wanted, amp, added a separate dac, started experimenting with cables. I rolled a lot of cables....but the sound while always getting better after each incremental change, still wasn't where I wanted to be. Until a tubed pre amp was thrown in the mix and I was able to take the receiver out of the equation within the same system. You always have to assess your weakest link in your system.

Point is, if you keep a closed mind, you'll never realize the beauty of good musical reproduction. Maybe your fine with that, maybe not, but I'm willing to bet curiosity will eventually get the best of you. You may not ever reach levels of some of the other members, I know I won't, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate those levels.

As another suggestion, depending on your location, get yourself to one of the many Polk get togethers some members throw. Meet some guys, put some faces to names, and get your ears on a variety of stuff. Doesn't cost a thing, and you can better dial in what you want to shoot for. Kinda like test driving a car before you buy it.

mantis

F1nut wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

I however have learned from the industries best and learned one common thing coming from engineers who make wire and who make the equipment that needs to be connected to that wire. Once you achieve the goal of passing along the signal from A to B there is nothing more you can do to make anything better. You can certainly harm the signal with poor designed wire, in proper gauge and a ton of other factors like EMI and RF interference.

And yet your current flavor of the month cable company makes a multitude of versions from inexpensive entry to expensive TOTL, so if what you learned from the engineers at AudioQuest is that once you achieve the goal of passing along the signal from A to B there is nothing more you can do to make anything better then why do you think they make all those versions?

I've been using Audioquest cables since 2004 so I wouldn't consider them a flavor of the month. It's 2017 if you haven't checked the calendar lately.
As far as who I heard that statement from was not just audioquest but from many Audio and Video manufactures. To name a few would be B&W , Definitive Technology, Audio Control, NAD , Harman International , Theil , Cardas the list goes on and on man.
So to answer your question about why do they make so many cables is easy. They built the best cables then can in the WEL signature series spare no expense . Then from there they build down to make more affordable priced cables for people who can't afford perfection but want better quality cables at their respected price points.
This is true of the brands I have come to respect and that list is very short.
Audioquest
Cardas
Kimber Kable
As a consumer you can call them at any time to get any info you need. You don't have to be a professional like myself to get this info.

I stick with Audioquest as I find them to be the best overall cables in the industry. Nothing made at any price IMO is better, nothing. Thats my opinion and we don't have to share it. Your a MIT guy and as I am not for many reason, I respect that. You have your reasons why you feel they are the best cables for your system and I'm sure you have plenty of reasons why. We don't have to agree.

This thread sucks as usual and why I tend not to get that involved. My advise has been given and I'm leaving it at that.

Carry on.

Now Dan, I know you have not been using AudioQuest since 2004, but whatever.

So, you've acknowledged that cable A can pass the signal better than cable B from the same company. Thank you.

2004 is when I started testing them against Kimber and Transparent.
Absolutely, as most of us know the quality of materials make a huge difference in the ability to pass the signal. Let me be very clear , I think audioquest makes cables that well exceed the ability to send the signal correctly and people are willing to pay for them. I think that goal is accomplished well before the Reference models.
Lets talk straight here for once, in your honest opinion do you really think it takes $36k speaker cables to pass the signal pure? Do you think that goal can be done for less? If I had un limited amount of money, and didn't give a crap what it costs, what would I buy that assures me I'm getting the best possible conductor in your opinion? This is a question even I can't get out of anyone. It's like this untold secret. Other engineers from non wire companies say it doesn't take that to get the job done correctly and purely but no one will tell me what it does take honestly.
I fully believe this is why wire debates get heated and there are such strong opinions out there on both sides of the fence. The question to be is not if cables make a difference, thats a stupid question to ask IMO but the real question is what does it take to get the job done without any signal loss and being able to enjoy the signal as it is supposed to be. Audioquest, Kimber and Cardas have all been asked this very question and I have been told from all 3 that only their reference cables can claim that and everything under them is a compromise. I just don't believe that as I have tested up and down all 3 lines and the magic stops about 1/2 up the ladder.
What is your honest opinion on this? I know your a MIT guy do you think that holds true in their lines?
What I find funny is that every few years these companies find a way to re market themselves with these so called new technologies to give the end user the best possible experience. The signal has not changed but for some reason they feel the need to keep re inventing the wheel.
So there is no reason to argue about who makes the best cables and all that crap as that just goes around and around. Lets talk audiophile to audiophile and figure out if 1 can the goal be accomplished and what does it take to get that done?
I've been asking that question to these engineers for 20+ years.

mhardy6647

Whoa --- serves me right for sleeping at night & missing all the fun.

[Deleted User]

I bet they are sleeping all over America.

Gatecrasher

It's getting hard to see in here from all the smoke and mirrors.

lol

F1nut

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

F1^^^^

In typical efficient and to the point F! fashion, he's condensed the 10 Commandments down to the most important 6.
I might have suggested including "Tubes Matter", but ......

Now DonnerundBlitzen, I think you might be going a little heavy on the Sturm und Drang. Careful, or the next thing you know you'll be marching into Poland !

I can't take credit for that one, but I did save it because it's great. I agree though, "Tubes Matter" should be on the list.

Gatecrasher

What about "Capacitors Matter"?

Now that Polk has repaired all of my drivers, I'm saving up to get some of those Mundorf caps you tell me are going to make my SRTs sound better.

leftwinger57

Here to refute the stapling of in wall wires on a pre wire as a viable practice. 1st to address my experience w/ going w/ larger gauge wire. For me with no golden ears heard a distinct difference for the better. My runs are very small w/ one side @10' and the other being so close to my amp that it comes to 5' w/ no appreciable difference between runs. Now about the wire in the wall. This was a common practice as the pre wire was our main discipline in practice in our industry as alarm installers. If our client was not buying speakers from us and they did not want them boxed w/ blank plates showing we soft stapled them down on the studs and took measurements. If an installer failed to take said measurements and the client decided to get the speakers we would have to use a tone generator to locate the wires. This tool is used by the telco co. and electricians is very effective in finding the wires and w/ a little common sense you should determine the height and stud on which the wire was stapled... Lew

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-Networks-26000900-Pro3000-Generator/dp/B000FTADX0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1491677487&s

treitz3

Did somebody say tubes?

Tom

mhardy6647

meshplate2A3

mrbigbluelight

Those are some nice looking bug zappers !

Hermitism

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

he's condensed the 10 Commandments down

Oh, he has ALL ten!

F1nut

Hermitism wrote: »

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

he's condensed the 10 Commandments down

Oh, he has ALL ten!

Bravo!!!

I saved that one too.

Hermitism

DSkip wrote: »

I wish you'd stick around brother. We miss your 'hermitisms'.

I like to keep a small digital footprint. I don't want "them" to find me.

I'm just not forum material. You should know better than anyone that for me, posting a comment is like having a tooth pulled. And when I do, I don't notice my typo until a couple minutes after my editing window has expired. Then my illiteracy is there for the ages for the world to see. It's just too much pressure.

gp4jesus

F1nut wrote: »

I guess reindeer boy didn't like the story* of my mid-fi HT rig.

Jesse, I way appreciated it*! I've wondered about your "HT path" for some time. When I finish* getting the BIG stuff in order, I'll start "painting** my house."
* bi-amped surrounds
** approach cabling (IC & speaker) w/more zeal

Tony

pitdogg2

gudnoyez wrote: »

Turn the tunes up and thanks to Pepster for this link err I mean Yep2. What up Pepster.

What wait....are you SERIOUS?????

mhardy6647

gp4jesus wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

I guess reindeer boy didn't like the story* of my mid-fi HT rig.

Jesse, I way appreciated it*! I've wondered about your "HT path" for some time. When I finish* getting the BIG stuff in order, I'll start "painting** my house."
* bi-amped surrounds
** approach cabling (IC & speaker) w/more zeal

Tony

No comment other than that I wish to affirm you for your use of footnotes*.

__________
* Of which I myself am a big fan.