12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

mrbigbluelight

It should be noted, though, that it appears that he is using two (2!) spaces after each period. Possible indication of a non-conformist, possibly an anarchist ?

mhardy6647

or -- just an old person (like me).
We were taught "two spaces after the period" when we were taught how to write "term papers"

BlueFox

It certainly makes it easier to read. Also, for long posts some people need to learn that there is a blank line between paragraphs. Even if the paragraph is only a line or two.

I don't understand why that is so difficult.

treitz3

Agreed on that one Bud.

Tom

stones89

i agree also - if not done that way I lose the interest to read it fast...

BlueFox wrote: »

It certainly makes it easier to read. Also, for long posts some people need to learn that there is a blank line between paragraphs. Even if the paragraph is only a line or two.

I don't understand why that is so difficult.

Nightfall

mhardy6647 wrote: »

or -- just an old person (like me).
We were taught "two spaces after the period" when we were taught how to write "term papers"

Even ~25 years ago they were teaching that. Is that something no longer taught? I always use two spaces, who uses one?

Unknown

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txcoastal1

Gatecrasher wrote: »

It's funny the similarities between the two subjects.

Here's a big question.

Do $5,000 speaker cables sound better than $2,000 speaker cables?

How about $500 speaker cables?

I would never discern either way, because I have had more cost effective cables work better in some rigs vs others.

That is why I rarely sell any of my cables. Most of my differences have been in the interconnects, and assume these differences occur because of impedance and output voltages between gear and devices.

K_M

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

I found a table for recommended gauge and speaker wire lengths at the Audioholics website. There are several interesting articles on speaker wire and other connects at this website and they have a forum that deals with such questions. A ton of stuff to read and I have only got my toes wet.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge

Do yourself a favor and forget you ever read anything on that site. They are the kings of the naysayers.

So, I asked how much I should spend on speaker wire and cables for a 3K, 5.1 home theater set-up and BlueFox recommended spending nearly $600 per speaker wire. I would end up spending $3,000 for speaker wire plus additional for the other cables! I would end up spending more for wire and cables than all the other components in in my home theater set-up combined.

And then F1nut recommends ignoring Adioholics. Audioholics actually investigates the claims made by "exotic" wire and cable mfg companies. I certainly cannot afford to drop more than 3K on wire and cables only to discover the marketing hype by these companies is a bunch of hooey. Please forgive me for being prudent and heeding the ancient proverb: "Caveat emptor."

If you know of other consumer watchdog groups that have done what Audioholics has done, please let me know. Our "Food and Drug" administration monitors the claims of the food and drug industries for safety and accuracy purposes and helps protect the public. Too bad they also do not make sure the speaker and wire companies are not putting their thumbs on the scale.

People will spend your money for you, but have nothing to back up their grand claims.
Marketing,placebo,expectation all factor in. Along with Peer pressure.

Save your money, spend it on music, or things that matter.
Trust me, you will be happier.

K_M

tonyb wrote: »

Seriously Dan ?, in all due respect, NOBODY here is out to make money on the dude by our recommendations, or steer him towards purchasing anything he's uncomfortable with.

Many have their favorite brands they like, including you, but I would never suggest those brands to anyone who couldn't afford them or I thought would produce bad synergy....and certainly don't make money off of anyone or get kick backs from any brand.

If anything, we use our collective knowledge on cable brands, places to buy them, to SAVE people money. To suggest any of us are here to profit from our recommendations, or steer people in a direction they are uncomfortable with is mighty offensive not only to me but the forum in general.

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

txcoastal1

K_M wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

I found a table for recommended gauge and speaker wire lengths at the Audioholics website. There are several interesting articles on speaker wire and other connects at this website and they have a forum that deals with such questions. A ton of stuff to read and I have only got my toes wet.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge

Do yourself a favor and forget you ever read anything on that site. They are the kings of the naysayers.

So, I asked how much I should spend on speaker wire and cables for a 3K, 5.1 home theater set-up and BlueFox recommended spending nearly $600 per speaker wire. I would end up spending $3,000 for speaker wire plus additional for the other cables! I would end up spending more for wire and cables than all the other components in in my home theater set-up combined.

And then F1nut recommends ignoring Adioholics. Audioholics actually investigates the claims made by "exotic" wire and cable mfg companies. I certainly cannot afford to drop more than 3K on wire and cables only to discover the marketing hype by these companies is a bunch of hooey. Please forgive me for being prudent and heeding the ancient proverb: "Caveat emptor."

If you know of other consumer watchdog groups that have done what Audioholics has done, please let me know. Our "Food and Drug" administration monitors the claims of the food and drug industries for safety and accuracy purposes and helps protect the public. Too bad they also do not make sure the speaker and wire companies are not putting their thumbs on the scale.

People will spend your money for you, but have nothing to back up their grand claims.
Marketing,placebo,expectation all factor in. Along with Peer pressure.

Save your money, spend it on music, or things that matter.
Trust me, you will be happier.

I call BS, I invited you to LSAF to demo my claims and to let you hear for yourself where I create a scenario on my system by just swapping interconnects. Both are reputable companies, and not that it matters the cables were priced in the $500-$600 range.

heiney9

You either want to discover for yourself, or you don't. If you choose not to, you are missing out on an opportunity to set the record straight FOR YOURSELF.

Most of us (I know I do) work very hard for our money and *most of us* aren't just going to throw it away willy nilly on placebo, marketing and/or peer pressure (many of us are smarter than that).

Every cable advocate here has tried it for themselves and come away with a greater appreciation for what matters (everything matters).

You can listen to people on both sides of the fence, but until you do it for yourself and discover for yourself, you will be in the camp of: Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know.

The proof is in what you hear on your rig, in your listening environment, on your time, with your familiar/favorite music.

I will go out on a limb and say every strong cable advocate here has just done that (including myself) and discovered these things matter......matter a lot in some cases.

H9

Unknown

This content has been removed.

heiney9

txcoastal1 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

I found a table for recommended gauge and speaker wire lengths at the Audioholics website. There are several interesting articles on speaker wire and other connects at this website and they have a forum that deals with such questions. A ton of stuff to read and I have only got my toes wet.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge

Do yourself a favor and forget you ever read anything on that site. They are the kings of the naysayers.

So, I asked how much I should spend on speaker wire and cables for a 3K, 5.1 home theater set-up and BlueFox recommended spending nearly $600 per speaker wire. I would end up spending $3,000 for speaker wire plus additional for the other cables! I would end up spending more for wire and cables than all the other components in in my home theater set-up combined.

And then F1nut recommends ignoring Adioholics. Audioholics actually investigates the claims made by "exotic" wire and cable mfg companies. I certainly cannot afford to drop more than 3K on wire and cables only to discover the marketing hype by these companies is a bunch of hooey. Please forgive me for being prudent and heeding the ancient proverb: "Caveat emptor."

If you know of other consumer watchdog groups that have done what Audioholics has done, please let me know. Our "Food and Drug" administration monitors the claims of the food and drug industries for safety and accuracy purposes and helps protect the public. Too bad they also do not make sure the speaker and wire companies are not putting their thumbs on the scale.

People will spend your money for you, but have nothing to back up their grand claims.
Marketing,placebo,expectation all factor in. Along with Peer pressure.

Save your money, spend it on music, or things that matter.
Trust me, you will be happier.

I call BS, I invited you to LSAF to demo my claims and to let you hear for yourself where I create a scenario on my system by just swapping interconnects. Both are reputable companies, and not that it matters the cables were priced in the $500-$600 range.

Internet trolls rarely venture out in public. LOL

H9

pitdogg2

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/175683/damn-it-cables-matter/p1

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

You either want to discover for yourself, or you don't. If you choose not to, you are missing out on an opportunity to set the record straight FOR YOURSELF.

Most of us (I know I do) work very hard for our money and *most of us* aren't just going to throw it away willy nilly on placebo, marketing and/or peer pressure (many of us are smarter than that).

Every cable advocate here has tried it for themselves and come away with a greater appreciation for what matters (everything matters).

You can listen to people on both sides of the fence, but until you do it for yourself and discover for yourself, you will be in the camp.

Those that don't know, don't that they don't know.

The proof is in what you hear on your rig, in your listening environment, on your time, with your familiar/favorite music.

I will go out on a limb and say every strong cable advocate here has just done that (including myself) and discovered these things matter......matter a lot in some cases.

H9

Bias, expectation, peer pressure, purchase rationalization, etc are all normal human reactions we all have and are NOT aware are influencing us.

You can not will it away, wish it away, talk it away, or train it away, or outsmart it.

The very fact that we are unaware of the influence is why the argument is ongoing.

A more verifiable method exists that removes the Biases and expectations.

tonyb

Bingo ^^^^, and he didn't spend a fortune like some claim.

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

You either want to discover for yourself, or you don't. If you choose not to, you are missing out on an opportunity to set the record straight FOR YOURSELF.

Most of us (I know I do) work very hard for our money and *most of us* aren't just going to throw it away willy nilly on placebo, marketing and/or peer pressure (many of us are smarter than that).

Every cable advocate here has tried it for themselves and come away with a greater appreciation for what matters (everything matters).

You can listen to people on both sides of the fence, but until you do it for yourself and discover for yourself, you will be in the camp.

Those that don't know, don't that they don't know.

The proof is in what you hear on your rig, in your listening environment, on your time, with your familiar/favorite music.

I will go out on a limb and say every strong cable advocate here has just done that (including myself) and discovered these things matter......matter a lot in some cases.

H9

Bias, expectation, peer pressure, purchase rationalization, etc are all normal human reactions we all have and are NOT aware are influencing us.

You can not will it away, wish it away, talk it away, or train it away, or outsmart it.

The very fact that we are unaware of the influence is why the argument is ongoing.

A more verifiable method exists that removes the Biases and expectations.

Please expound on all your points as reading various posts from you, you seem to think of yourself as an expert in these situations.

So please, by all means go into detail not deflection

Detail:

1. an individual feature, fact, or item
2. describe item by item; give the full particulars of

Deflect:

1. the act of changing or causing something to change direction

You are using deflection (a normal human reaction I might add) to obfuscate the entire discussion by making broad general statements that have zero basis, because you continually attempt to lecture other people about what their own experiences are, and invalidating them.

obfuscate:

1.to be evasive, unclear, or confusing •

H9

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

You either want to discover for yourself, or you don't. If you choose not to, you are missing out on an opportunity to set the record straight FOR YOURSELF.

Most of us (I know I do) work very hard for our money and *most of us* aren't just going to throw it away willy nilly on placebo, marketing and/or peer pressure (many of us are smarter than that).

Every cable advocate here has tried it for themselves and come away with a greater appreciation for what matters (everything matters).

You can listen to people on both sides of the fence, but until you do it for yourself and discover for yourself, you will be in the camp.

Those that don't know, don't that they don't know.

The proof is in what you hear on your rig, in your listening environment, on your time, with your familiar/favorite music.

I will go out on a limb and say every strong cable advocate here has just done that (including myself) and discovered these things matter......matter a lot in some cases.

H9

Bias, expectation, peer pressure, purchase rationalization, etc are all normal human reactions we all have and are NOT aware are influencing us.

You can not will it away, wish it away, talk it away, or train it away, or outsmart it.

The very fact that we are unaware of the influence is why the argument is ongoing.

A more verifiable method exists that removes the Biases and expectations.

Please expound on all your points as reading various posts from you, you seem to think of yourself as an expert in these situations.

So please, by all means go into detail not deflection

Detail:

1. an individual feature, fact, or item
2. describe item by item; give the full particulars of

Deflect:

1. the act of changing or causing something to change direction

You are using deflection (a normal human reaction I might add) to obfuscate the entire discussion by making broad general statements that have zero basis, because you continually attempt to lecture other people about what their own experiences are, and invalidating them.

obfuscate:

1.to be evasive, unclear, or confusing •

H9

Human beings are all affected by bias, Peer pressure, Costs of things, Visual cues and so on.
I think my point was very simple.


Are you saying humans are not affected by those things?

heiney9

Your point was extremely general...................

Of course people are affected by those things..............What I want is for you to apply those principles to my experiences that you keep invalidating by stating general themes about "human nature".

Why are you afraid to let the OP and others try for themselves? You are vigorously trying to invalidate everyone's experiences (that don't align with your general statements about human nature) in an effort to somehow sway others from creating and evaluating their own experiences.

Just because you might (and probably are heavily) swayed by human nature doesn't mean we all are to the same degree. Yet you seem to just keep parroting these extremely complex factors with very, very broad and simplistic generalities.

Makes me think you don't really know what you are talking about. I don't believe you've even stated your own experiences with cables. I know what you believe, but I don't know what experience you have or the depth of your knowledge about how cables are manufactured or interact with an electrical signal.

All I know form your POV is because of human nature all the cable stuff is marketing and snake oil. That's a hysterically weak argument, if you can even call it proof.

H9

mrbigbluelight

Bias, expectation, peer pressure, purchase rationalization, etc are all normal human reactions we all have and are NOT aware are influencing us.

True, to a certain extent, in some cases.
However, I would like to state for the record that peer pressure has absolutely ZERO affect on myself. None. Nada. Zilch. Zip.
You may think that that is not possible. I would submit that you are fixating on me being an idiot, but overlooking the fact that I'm a hard-headed a$$hole.
And no, I don't have any scientific studies to support that, but I could supply character witnesses who would testify to that.
A lot. A whole lot.

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

Your point was extremely general...................

Of course people are affected by those things..............What I want is for you to apply those principles to my experiences that you keep invalidating by stating general themes about the "human nature".

Why are you afraid to let the OP and others try for themselves? You are vigorously trying to invalidate everyone's experiences (that don't align with your general statements about human nature) in an effort to somehow sway others from creating and evaluating their own experiences.

Just because you might (and probably are heavily) swayed by human nature doesn't mean we all are to the same degree. Yet you seem to just keep parroting these extremely complex factors with very, very broad and simplistic generalities.

Makes me think you don't really know what you are talking about. I don't believe you've even stated your own experiences with cables. I know what you believe, but I don't know what experience you have or the depth of your knowledge about how cables are manufactured or interact with an electrical signal.

All I know form your POV is because of human nature all the cable stuff is marketing and snake oil. That's a hysterically weak argument, if you can even call it proof.

H9

I will make this VERY to the point, as I feel there is truly very little to this whole debate/argument.

No claim, is more than a claim to me, until it is verified.
That is NOT to insult anyone, or doubt their experience, or say they are wrong.

Simply some require more than a claim, anecdote or comparison sighted.

Proof of extraordinary claims falls to the one making the claim.
I am making no claims.

F1nut

K_M wrote: »

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

You mean like the claims you make that your husband is a high end, top notch speaker designer, yet offer no proof despite being asked to do so repeatedly?

In fact, you have never offered anything of substance, yet come here demanding others to do so. What amuses me most is how every time you go down that road you end up face first in the mud.

Unknown

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F1nut

I bet you never bought anything without reading Consumers Report first.

heiney9

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

This original thread was started with the question about 16 or 12 gauge wire thickness for in ceiling speaker wire runs. The wire in question can be bought in bulk at Amazon (300 foot rolls for far less than a monthly car payment) as OFC wire appropriate for in wall use.

Here are the speaker wire recommendations by Polk Audio for their Signature Series speakers:

For speaker wire runs up to 25 feet - 16 gauge wire
For speaker wire runs 26 feet to 50 feet - 14 gauge wire
For speaker wire runs of 51 to 75 feet - 12 gauge wire
For speaker wire runs greater than 75 feet - 10 gauge wire

The science behind these recommendations are ably described at the Audioholics website. That website has similar, but a little more conservative recommendations for gauge, OFC wire, and wire run length, than Polk's.

The Signature Series manual does not specify pure copper wire or knock copper clad aluminum wire. They also illustrate connecting the speaker wire to the speakers with bare wire and then comment on the option of using banana plugs.

Pure copper multi-strand wire is about 2 to 4 plus times more expensive than copper clad aluminum wire, depending on what brand and vendor you buy from. I ordered a 100 foot roll of 12 gauge OFC multi-strand wire on Saturday to replace my 14 gauge OFC wire - probably overkill on my part. This type of wire seems to be a generic commodity. I wonder if there are only a few manufacturers that make all the wire that they then sell wholesale to retail wire companies.

The Signature Series speakers are, like most of Polk's products, mid-fi level audio products. Polk does not recommend spending more for the speaker wire than the actual cost of the Signature speakers. In fact, the wire recommended by Polk is only a small fraction of the cost of the Signature series speakers.

Those are minimum recommendation's, not "letter of the law" type recommendations. Always consider cables within the context of the entire system, but even Star Quad 4S11 is better sounding and performing cable than bulk Amazon or Mono Price copper cable and it's only just a tad more expensive.

Experiment within your comfort zone and see what works for you, but let's not reduce the choices simply because you already think it doesn't matter. Put the time and effort in to find out for yourself.

Audioholics is not the be all, end all of information. Your ears should be the be all, end all of information.

Do us all a favor, if your mind is already made up as it seems to be based on all your posts, stop asking for peoples opinions and experiences. It seem to me so far, you are parroting what Audioholics says and pretty much dismissing anything else. If that's the case, move along and assemble your rig, but don't ask questions just so you can disagree with the answers.

People have made solid, price conscious suggestions based on their own experiences at the same stage you are in this hobby, just starting out.

H9

K_M

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

You mean like the claims you make that your husband is a high end, top notch speaker designer, yet offer no proof despite being asked to do so repeatedly?

In fact, you have never offered anything of substance, yet come here demanding others to do so. What amuses me most is how every time you go down that road you end up face first in the mud.

Okay you are free to not believe anything I say at all.
I am fine with that.

I am not demanding anyone prove anything.
Merely stating that without more verifiable proof, some things are questionable.

Basing a high priced cable purchase on possibly biased comments from random people on an audio board, is not most likely the best way of making a purchase or decision.
Most seem have very low standards of proof.
That is not a slam or dig at anyone, but frankly amazing.
I see little to no mention of blind testing, or anything that would give some veracity to a comparison.

Again I am not demanding, but simply amused at the means. A simple observation.

Unknown

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K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

Why do I have to verify my experience to you? Also you make a lot of claims contrary, but I have yet to any verifiable proof.

You are making claims, all your argument railing against our experiences are claims why it's not possible for us to make an educated, informed and low bias observation.

What gives you the right to invalidate my experience?

Who decides what's extraordinary? You? Me? the guy on the park bench, the police officer?

To me differences in cables isn't extraordinary, it falls into the logical paradigm that they should and do make a difference based on my experiences in said paradigm.

The way I see your side of this discussion is: My pragmatic approach is to be followed because it makes sense to me that the others experiences were predicated on seeing said cable, knowing the cost of said cable, and wanting the more expensive and "popular" (by peer pressure) cable to sound awesome while the others sound like poo.

Therefore all of pro cable experiences are extraordinarily wrong because general human nature can not be superseded and nothing can be verified to my satisfaction, therefor my conclusion is simple..........cables don't make a difference at all.

H9

If all of this is true, then why are radically different results found when doing sighted versus unsighted testing?

The same differences should be JUST as apparent when aware or unaware of what is being used/listened to, right?

Numerous comparisons, have found that to not be the case.

txcoastal1

K_M wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

You mean like the claims you make that your husband is a high end, top notch speaker designer, yet offer no proof despite being asked to do so repeatedly?

In fact, you have never offered anything of substance, yet come here demanding others to do so. What amuses me most is how every time you go down that road you end up face first in the mud.

Okay you are free to not believe anything I say at all.
I am fine with that.

I am not demanding anyone prove anything.
Merely stating that without more verifiable proof, some things are questionable.

Oxymoron reply...no proof, more proof

Basing a high priced cable purchase on possibly biased comments from random people on an audio board, is not most likely the best way of making a purchase or decision.
People sharing experiences, no different than scientists sharing their discoveries

Most seem have very low standards of proof.
That is not a slam or dig at anyone, but frankly amazing.
I see little to no mention of blind testing, or anything that would give some veracity to a comparison.

I offered you a chance of a real life experience

Again I am not demanding, but simply amused at the means. A simple observation.
I'm glad you find hawking threads amusing....what a wonderful life