Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

SolidSqual · October 2009

jinjuku wrote: »

The marketing hype that I have seen singularly pointed out here is the word 'Reference'. Correct?

Hey, don't pick a fight with me. I think its asinine too. I love Emotiva.

SolidSqual · October 2009

Kex wrote: »

You totally missed the point I was making. You drew a comparison earlier to people criticizing expensive gear, just because it was expensive, with those that criticize Emotiva's "affordable" gear, just because it's Emotiva and not an expensive, established brand such as X, Y, or Z.

If one listens to Emotiva gear, and finds it lacking, and then reports one's findings on an internet forum such as C.P., one is not bashing Emotiva. The person reporting did not like it, when compared to other equipment within that person's experience, and it's as simple as that. Many Emotiva owners (and they seem to be large majority) have difficulty in taking negative evaluations at face value. In their opinion, the person reporting must have some axe to grind, or some other reason that explains this ridiculous (perceived) hatred for Emotiva.

+1 Love Emotiva, but it's only the beginning of the high end.

TECHNOKID · October 2009

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm glad civility has returned and there aren't a lot of Molotov's being tossed around like those good old days

The subject title in it self was a good bomb for many, I guess the reason why the discussion started in such a flame and vigor. Poor Bobt was bombarded from everywhere he didn't realize where it was coming from. Never recuperate from it I guess. When the boys feel attacked here, I realised it can get vicious

Boys, don't get "emotivational"

Cheers!
TK

DarqueKnight · October 2009

inspiredsports wrote: »

I fully appreciate what you are saying, but in staged listening tests, I believe you react differently than when you've been typing away in a forum or contemplating data in a spreadsheet for an hour, and then suddenly exclaim. "Wow, I never heard that tambourine slap in that verse before!"

Of course. How many times have we been able to perfectly recite information in during a class session, but then forget everything we know during a stressful examination?. Would the teacher be justified in saying that the student who funked the exam didn't know a damn thing...even though the student displayed the proper knowledge in class two days prior? I believe that if you are going to test something dealing with sensory perception, the test should be as close as possible to the actual use conditions.

There are so many variables that determine whether a cable will make an audible difference, like, for example, cable break in.

Two cables may have 300 hour break in ratings, but at what current load? This is often not specified. One cable may require 300 hours at 1 amp and the other cable may need 300 hours at only 0.5 amp. If both cables are broken in on a 0.5 amp continuous device, then the 300 amp-hour device will require 600 hours. Comparing both cables at the 300 hour mark would not give accurate results.

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

I never once said that i didn't beleive in quality cable's making any noticeble difference, i very much beleive that quality cable's are a necessity! I'm only trying to point out that you can get quality cable's and sound WITHOUT breaking the bank :cool: Why do people misinterpret thing's and put word's in other people's mouth/post?

If you look around the net you can find most, if not all the same cable used to make "high end" cable's and most of it is priced by the foot or meter

I would prefer to inform myself on what make's any given cable good or better than another cable and use that info to make an informed purchase and make my own cable's instead of buying them pre-made and paying the extra price for assembly/finish

Being on disability i don't have the disposable income that some have but i do like to have the best that i can afford

That's why i was asking about the stranding earlier in post 2013 + 2015....

Below are a few link's that i think carry some pretty good stuff (from what i can tell) in bulk so that you/i/we can make your/our/his own cable's and use the cash saved for some bluray's, vinyl, beer, hooker's, whatever! lol

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/default.asp
http://www.thecableco.com/index.php
http://www.vhaudio.com/
http://www.markertek.com/index.asp

So again can someone please clarify for us the reason behind the different stranding practice's used? I know that basically it is for "skimming" but i would like to know more

Maybe i asked in the wrong place

heiney9 · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I never once said that i didn't beleive in quality cable's making any noticeble difference, i very much beleive that quality cable's are a necessity! I'm only trying to point out that you can get quality cable's and sound WITHOUT breaking the bank :cool: Why do people misinterpret thing's and put word's in other people's mouth/post?

If you look around the net you can find most, if not all the same cable used to make "high end" cable's and most of it is priced by the foot or meter I would prefer to inform myself on what make's any given cable good or better than another cable and use that info to make an informed purchase and make my own cable's instead of buying them pre-made and paying the extra price for assembly/finish

Being on disability i don't have the disposable income that some have but i do like to have the best that i can afford That's why i was asking about the stranding earlier in post 2013 + 2015....

Below are a few link's that i think carry some pretty good stuff (from what i can tell) in bulk so that you/i/we can make your/our/his own cable's and use the cash saved for some bluray's, vinyl, beer, hooker's, whatever! lol

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/default.asp
http://www.thecableco.com/index.php
http://www.vhaudio.com/
http://www.markertek.com/index.asp

So again can someone please clarify for us the reason behind the different stranding practice's used? I know that basically it is for "skimming" but i would like to know more

Maybe i asked in the wrong place

It's a sliding scale........your quality sound is not my quality of sound. It's a subjective opinion and while what you are saying has truth........the truth is for you and you're situation. I can guarantee what you find as acceptable quality is much different than what I find acceptable.

A Camry is a nice quality car.............but it's not a BMW or Porsche. Do you use the same logic against people who prefer a Porsche over a Camry?

I don;t think you do.

H9

heiney9 · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Below are a few link's that i think carry some pretty good stuff (from what i can tell) in bulk so that you/i/we can make your/our/his own cable's and use the cash saved for some bluray's, vinyl, beer, hooker's, whatever! lol

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/default.asp
http://www.thecableco.com/index.php
http://www.vhaudio.com/
http://www.markertek.com/index.asp

So again can someone please clarify for us the reason behind the different stranding practice's used? I know that basically it is for "skimming" but i would like to know more

Maybe i asked in the wrong place

You'll also find by the time you buy all the materials and tools to build your own you'll be at the same cost or more. If you're going to use Techflex you really need a hot knife to do it properly. For the shrink tube a hot air gun works better and look better than anything. Inexpensive units combined will run you about $50, not to mention a good quality wire snipper.

I have made my own, without the above and they won't win any beauty contests. Here's a link............you can't make these cables cheaper. I'd suggest these and be done with it.

http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=61

Nicely terminated and sheathed Star Quad type wire

H9

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

heiney9 wrote: »

It's a sliding scale........your quality sound is not my quality of sound. It's a subjective opinion and while what you are saying has truth........the truth is for you and you're situation. I can guarantee what you find as acceptable quality is much different than what I find acceptable.

A Camry is a nice quality car.............but it's not a BMW or Porsche. Do you use the same logic against people who prefer a Porsche over a Camry?

I don;t think you do.

H9

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

I bet you i could make a complete set of speaker, power and IC cable's for the cost of what you paid for a couple cable's and you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between them

Mine may even sound better! lol

Can someone with an open mind and some actual knowledge of cable's please explain a little bit about how the different type's of stranding method's and "gauge blending" affect the sound charecteristic's?

Thank You

EDIT: Just so you know "heiney", which by the way is a perfect screen name for you! I have all the necessary tool's to make cable's i just need the part's and a clean workspace

treitz3 · October 2009

Some of you crack me up. You don't "believe" that a cable may change whatever you think it changes. They either do or they don't.

My ears tell me that they can make a horrible to considerably pleasing change in many aspects of reproduction. That's a fact I don't need to believe in. Now, if you can't hear any type of change whatsoever? Consider yourself lucky and shut the hell up about "not believing".

You are no longer in the 1st grade, you know about Santa and the tooth fairy by now. Those were things you used to "believe" in. Cables either do or they don't, period.

F1nut · October 2009

inspiredsports wrote: »

A paradigm shift I reached about a year ago was: Cable IS Gear

Yes sir folks, we have a winner!

inspiredsports · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I bet you i could make a complete set of speaker, power and IC cable's for the cost of what you paid for a couple cable's and you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between them Mine may even sound better! lol.

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Can someone with an open mind and some actual knowledge of cable's please explain a little bit about how the different type's of stranding method's and "gauge blending" affect the sound charecteristic's?

Thank You

Simply answered; No.

It's that old Einstein quote we keep citing, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be measured "

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

EDIT: Just so you know "heiney", which by the way is a perfect screen name for you! I have all the necessary tool's to make cable's i just need the part's and a clean workspace

Hmmm . . . I've found H9 to be a pretty stand up guy around here.

As far as making cables. Been there, done that. Nothing comes close to a high-line cable, and if you count your time (even at your hourly wage), you'll end up even farther behind.

######################

Some day your perspective may change if you really are "Still Learning" (but you'll have to find a way to audition the cables that you stated you can't afford).

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

Who p1ssed in your cornflake's treitz? lol

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

@ inspiredsports: i'm just razzing him the same way he's razzing me

heiney9 · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Why do people misinterpret thing's and put word's in other people's mouth/post?

You wrote the above and now are DOING EXACTLY the same thing. You totally missed my point...............right over your head. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm done with trying to help you. You are pretty damn dense.

H9

P.s. you can take your emoticons and shove 'em up your arse!

heiney9 · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Who p1ssed in your cornflake's treitz? lol

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

@ inspiredsports: i'm just razzing him the same way he's razzing me

Google it.......if you know how.

I'm not razzing you.........I'm giving you my POV, in general you have been asking people to do so. Sorry you don;t like the answers or can;t handle the answers.

H9

LessisNevermore · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

This subject interests me as well. It would be useful in determining (roughly) a cable's characteristics before purchase. Obviously, it wouldn't tell the whole story, but would be a good starting point.....

DK, any insight here?

heiney9 · October 2009

Duell, in my experience multi strand "twisted" wire seems to sound better than straight multi-strand wire. The Star Quad I use in the office rig is a great sounding cable for not a lot of money. I made them myself (Canare bulk wire). Sound a lot better (smoother, more dynamic) than regular rip cord or M cable of the same gauge or larger.

I used to have a bunch of links about "twisted pairs" but I can't locate them, a good Google search should yield a lot of info. If I run across anything I'll PM you.

H9

P.s. I can set you up with a retailer that sells Canare Star Quad in bulk for the cheapest I've seen it. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. A very inexpensive way to get your ears on it. If I had something else to run in the office rig I'd let you borrow my homemade set to see if you like.

F1nut · October 2009

Brock rocks!

inspiredsports · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

. . . still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

The problem with cable construction technology is that it's proprietary, and while the manufacturer's publish detailed white papers, they certainly aren't going to give away the farm.

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

I love people who can crap on someone else but can't stand the smell of a ****! lol

Instead of b1tchin' why don't people post usefull info for the community instead of saying "A" is better than "B" because "A" cost X amount $$ and "B" only cost X amount $$? Because really itprove's nothing at all except that you spent more cash on your cable's.

I know how to google thank you

Maybe i'm asking these Q's to see what you know? or DON'T know?maybe i don't want to spend 7 day's looking for info that someone could simply mention in a post!

Last time i checked you used the crapper the same way everyone else does

Narrow mindedness will be the end of us all....

inspiredsports wrote:

The problem with cable construction technology is that it's proprietary, and while the manufacturer's publish detailed white papers, they certainly aren't going to give away the farm.

Obviously, but the people who actually know about cable's could mention how/why certain style's/method's work better

LessisNevermore · October 2009

heiney9 wrote: »

Duell, in my experience multi strand "twisted" wire seems to sound better than straight multi-strand wire. The Star Quad I use in the office rig is a great sounding cable for not a lot of money. I made them myself (Canare bulk wire). Sound a lot better (smoother, more dynamic) than regular rip cord or M cable of the same gauge or larger.

I used to have a bunch of links about "twisted pairs" but I can't locate them, a good Google search should yield a lot of info. If I run across anything I'll PM you.

H9

P.s. I can set you up with a retailer that sells Canare Star Quad in bulk for the cheapest I've seen it. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. A very inexpensive way to get your ears on it. If I had something else to run in the office rig I'd let you borrow my homemade set to see if you like.

I appreciate it Brock, and I'm sure I'll try it in the future. The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:p:D

heiney9 · October 2009

LessisNevermore wrote: »

I appreciate it Brock, and I'm sure I'll try it in the future. The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:D

Because I'm am elitist hi-fi snob and I say so!!

.

So mums the word on the GDA700 you bought from my brother as well as the Dared Mp5. I've been waiting to hear a little feedback.

In general having the conductors overlapping at close to a 90 degree angle from one another cancels out EMF/RFI. Seriously, I did a lot of reading a few years ago and I just don't have the info at my finger tips, but it's out there if you have some time to do some digging.

H9

heiney9 · October 2009

Duell,

Google "Litz" and that should give you plenty to ponder.

Here's the Wiki to get you started. This is the principle behind Canare's Stad Quad and other "twisted" type winding patterns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire

LessisNevermore · October 2009

heiney9 wrote: »

So mums the word on the GDA700 you bought from my brother as well as the Dared Mp5. I've been waiting to hear a little feedback.

Sorry 'bout that, only been off work for about a week and a half now, and been ripping cd's, more than listening.:o

The dac is good, haven't done much critical yet.

The Dared....jury's still out, until I get some speakers to drive with it. I'm not about to hook it up to the LSi9's.:D Thinking seriously about adding a set of outputs.....

F1nut · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg,

You are missing a very important point. Just because a cable is constructed one way or the other does not mean it will sound the best in every system. What works well with one system may not work well in another. The only way to know for sure is to try the cable in your system. Synergy is key and trumps everything else, including price.

Lesson over.

God bless and enjoy the music.

heiney9 · October 2009

In fact this sums it up pretty well.

What is Litz wire? The word "Litz" is derived from the German word "Litzendraht" meaning woven wire. It refers to wire consisting of a number of individually insulated magnet wires twisted or braided into a uniform pattern, so that each strand tends to take all possible positions in the cross-section of the entire conductor.

This multi-strand configuration or Litz construction is designed to minimize the power losses exhibited in solid conductors due to "skin effect". Skin effect refers to the tendency of current flow in a conductor to be confined to a layer in the conductor close to its outer surface. At low frequencies, skin effect is negligible, and current is distributed uniformly across the conductor. However, as the frequency increases, the depth to which the flow can penetrate is reduced. Litz wire constructions counteract this effect by increasing the amount of surface area without significantly increasing the size of the conductor.

Even properly constructed Litz wires will exhibit some skin effect due to the limitations of stranding. Wires intended for higher frequency ranges require more strands of a finer gauge size than Litz wires of equal cross-sectional area but composed of fewer and larger strands.

Proximity effect is the tendency for current to flow in loops or concentrated distributions due to the presence of magnetic fields generated by nearby conductors. In transformers and inductors, proximity effect losses are generally more significant than skin effect losses. In Litz wire windings, proximity effect may be sub-divided into internal proximity effect (the effect of other currents within the bundle) and outer proximity effect ( the effect of the current in other bundles). The reason for twisting or weaving Litz wire, rather than just grouping fine conductors together, is to ensure that the strand currents are equal. Simple twisted bunched conductor wire can accomplish this adequately where proximity effect would be the only significant problem with solid wire. Where skin effect would also be a problem, more complex Litz wire constructions can be used to ensure equal strand currents. Therefore, in a well-designed construction, strand currents are nearly equal.

H9

P.s. I was going to PM you this so numb nuts StILLeArNiNG would have to do his own research, but I'm not THAT vindictive. I'm sure he'll find some way to argue about it though :rolleyes:

vc69 · October 2009

LessisNevermore wrote: »

The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:p:D

As so many have stated, it may or may not. To me the differences in cables vary from subtle to striking. To me it's a question of economics. I have some average price transparent cables that I can't tell from good cheap no-names. I also have some extremely expensive Cardas cables that I find to be amazing. I had no idea what they cost when I listened to them and decided they were the ones I "had to have". Turns out I could never afford them (over $1k IC's, ridiculous). But I definitely like them better than any other cable I have heard in my system.

I think part of this discussion's never-ending nature is that some people just can't hear those subtle differences. I say good for them.
But the non believers never seem to be able to say to us "good for you" and be done with it.

The subtle differences are not_so_subtle when you are familiar with the system and source material. If I couldn't hear the differences, I wouldn't bother with it. I can.

/.02

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

F1nut wrote: »

sTiLlLeArNiNg,

You are missing a very important point. Just because a cable is constructed one way or the other does not mean it will sound the best in every system. What works well with one system may not work well in another. The only way to know for sure is to try the cable in your system. Synergy is key and trumps everything else, including price.

Lesson over.

God bless and enjoy the music.

Actually i never missed that! Clearly you missed that i already understood that lol

@ heiney: My **** aren't numb! I'm scratchin' 'em right now! lol

Thank's for the linkage :cool:

Montoya · October 2009

This argument is ridonkulous!

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

Montoya wrote: »

This argument is ridonkulous!

This is not an argument but rather a passionate discusion

LessisNevermore · October 2009

Montoya wrote: »

This argument is ridonkulous!

I really don't think anyone is actually arguing here. (at the moment);)

Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

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