Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

heiney9 wrote: »

It's a sliding scale........your quality sound is not my quality of sound. It's a subjective opinion and while what you are saying has truth........the truth is for you and you're situation. I can guarantee what you find as acceptable quality is much different than what I find acceptable.

A Camry is a nice quality car.............but it's not a BMW or Porsche. Do you use the same logic against people who prefer a Porsche over a Camry?

I don;t think you do.

H9

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

I bet you i could make a complete set of speaker, power and IC cable's for the cost of what you paid for a couple cable's and you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between them

Mine may even sound better! lol

Can someone with an open mind and some actual knowledge of cable's please explain a little bit about how the different type's of stranding method's and "gauge blending" affect the sound charecteristic's?

Thank You

EDIT: Just so you know "heiney", which by the way is a perfect screen name for you! I have all the necessary tool's to make cable's i just need the part's and a clean workspace

treitz3 · October 2009

Some of you crack me up. You don't "believe" that a cable may change whatever you think it changes. They either do or they don't.

My ears tell me that they can make a horrible to considerably pleasing change in many aspects of reproduction. That's a fact I don't need to believe in. Now, if you can't hear any type of change whatsoever? Consider yourself lucky and shut the hell up about "not believing".

You are no longer in the 1st grade, you know about Santa and the tooth fairy by now. Those were things you used to "believe" in. Cables either do or they don't, period.

F1nut · October 2009

inspiredsports wrote: »

A paradigm shift I reached about a year ago was: Cable IS Gear

Yes sir folks, we have a winner!

inspiredsports · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I bet you i could make a complete set of speaker, power and IC cable's for the cost of what you paid for a couple cable's and you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between them Mine may even sound better! lol.

Hmmm . . . I don't think he said that.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Can someone with an open mind and some actual knowledge of cable's please explain a little bit about how the different type's of stranding method's and "gauge blending" affect the sound charecteristic's?

Thank You

Simply answered; No.

It's that old Einstein quote we keep citing, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be measured "

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

EDIT: Just so you know "heiney", which by the way is a perfect screen name for you! I have all the necessary tool's to make cable's i just need the part's and a clean workspace

Hmmm . . . I've found H9 to be a pretty stand up guy around here.

As far as making cables. Been there, done that. Nothing comes close to a high-line cable, and if you count your time (even at your hourly wage), you'll end up even farther behind.

######################

Some day your perspective may change if you really are "Still Learning" (but you'll have to find a way to audition the cables that you stated you can't afford).

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

Who p1ssed in your cornflake's treitz? lol

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

@ inspiredsports: i'm just razzing him the same way he's razzing me

heiney9 · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

I get it, because i like to save money i am deaf and hear ****?

So basically you (H9) are saying that anything anyone else has is crap because they didn't pay out the nose for it? That has to be one of the MOST ignorant comment's i have ever heard in my life! lol You have absolutely no idea why a given cable is better or worse than another except for the pricing difference lol The store's must love you!

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Why do people misinterpret thing's and put word's in other people's mouth/post?

You wrote the above and now are DOING EXACTLY the same thing. You totally missed my point...............right over your head. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm done with trying to help you. You are pretty damn dense.

H9

P.s. you can take your emoticons and shove 'em up your arse!

heiney9 · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Who p1ssed in your cornflake's treitz? lol

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

@ inspiredsports: i'm just razzing him the same way he's razzing me

Google it.......if you know how.

I'm not razzing you.........I'm giving you my POV, in general you have been asking people to do so. Sorry you don;t like the answers or can;t handle the answers.

H9

LessisNevermore · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

This subject interests me as well. It would be useful in determining (roughly) a cable's characteristics before purchase. Obviously, it wouldn't tell the whole story, but would be a good starting point.....

DK, any insight here?

heiney9 · October 2009

Duell, in my experience multi strand "twisted" wire seems to sound better than straight multi-strand wire. The Star Quad I use in the office rig is a great sounding cable for not a lot of money. I made them myself (Canare bulk wire). Sound a lot better (smoother, more dynamic) than regular rip cord or M cable of the same gauge or larger.

I used to have a bunch of links about "twisted pairs" but I can't locate them, a good Google search should yield a lot of info. If I run across anything I'll PM you.

H9

P.s. I can set you up with a retailer that sells Canare Star Quad in bulk for the cheapest I've seen it. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. A very inexpensive way to get your ears on it. If I had something else to run in the office rig I'd let you borrow my homemade set to see if you like.

F1nut · October 2009

Brock rocks!

inspiredsports · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

. . . still looking for some info on stranding + multi gauge wiring technique's/benefit's

The problem with cable construction technology is that it's proprietary, and while the manufacturer's publish detailed white papers, they certainly aren't going to give away the farm.

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

I love people who can crap on someone else but can't stand the smell of a ****! lol

Instead of b1tchin' why don't people post usefull info for the community instead of saying "A" is better than "B" because "A" cost X amount $$ and "B" only cost X amount $$? Because really itprove's nothing at all except that you spent more cash on your cable's.

I know how to google thank you

Maybe i'm asking these Q's to see what you know? or DON'T know?maybe i don't want to spend 7 day's looking for info that someone could simply mention in a post!

Last time i checked you used the crapper the same way everyone else does

Narrow mindedness will be the end of us all....

inspiredsports wrote:

The problem with cable construction technology is that it's proprietary, and while the manufacturer's publish detailed white papers, they certainly aren't going to give away the farm.

Obviously, but the people who actually know about cable's could mention how/why certain style's/method's work better

LessisNevermore · October 2009

heiney9 wrote: »

Duell, in my experience multi strand "twisted" wire seems to sound better than straight multi-strand wire. The Star Quad I use in the office rig is a great sounding cable for not a lot of money. I made them myself (Canare bulk wire). Sound a lot better (smoother, more dynamic) than regular rip cord or M cable of the same gauge or larger.

I used to have a bunch of links about "twisted pairs" but I can't locate them, a good Google search should yield a lot of info. If I run across anything I'll PM you.

H9

P.s. I can set you up with a retailer that sells Canare Star Quad in bulk for the cheapest I've seen it. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. A very inexpensive way to get your ears on it. If I had something else to run in the office rig I'd let you borrow my homemade set to see if you like.

I appreciate it Brock, and I'm sure I'll try it in the future. The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:p:D

heiney9 · October 2009

LessisNevermore wrote: »

I appreciate it Brock, and I'm sure I'll try it in the future. The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:D

Because I'm am elitist hi-fi snob and I say so!!

.

So mums the word on the GDA700 you bought from my brother as well as the Dared Mp5. I've been waiting to hear a little feedback.

In general having the conductors overlapping at close to a 90 degree angle from one another cancels out EMF/RFI. Seriously, I did a lot of reading a few years ago and I just don't have the info at my finger tips, but it's out there if you have some time to do some digging.

H9

heiney9 · October 2009

Duell,

Google "Litz" and that should give you plenty to ponder.

Here's the Wiki to get you started. This is the principle behind Canare's Stad Quad and other "twisted" type winding patterns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire

LessisNevermore · October 2009

heiney9 wrote: »

So mums the word on the GDA700 you bought from my brother as well as the Dared Mp5. I've been waiting to hear a little feedback.

Sorry 'bout that, only been off work for about a week and a half now, and been ripping cd's, more than listening.:o

The dac is good, haven't done much critical yet.

The Dared....jury's still out, until I get some speakers to drive with it. I'm not about to hook it up to the LSi9's.:D Thinking seriously about adding a set of outputs.....

F1nut · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg,

You are missing a very important point. Just because a cable is constructed one way or the other does not mean it will sound the best in every system. What works well with one system may not work well in another. The only way to know for sure is to try the cable in your system. Synergy is key and trumps everything else, including price.

Lesson over.

God bless and enjoy the music.

heiney9 · October 2009

In fact this sums it up pretty well.

What is Litz wire? The word "Litz" is derived from the German word "Litzendraht" meaning woven wire. It refers to wire consisting of a number of individually insulated magnet wires twisted or braided into a uniform pattern, so that each strand tends to take all possible positions in the cross-section of the entire conductor.

This multi-strand configuration or Litz construction is designed to minimize the power losses exhibited in solid conductors due to "skin effect". Skin effect refers to the tendency of current flow in a conductor to be confined to a layer in the conductor close to its outer surface. At low frequencies, skin effect is negligible, and current is distributed uniformly across the conductor. However, as the frequency increases, the depth to which the flow can penetrate is reduced. Litz wire constructions counteract this effect by increasing the amount of surface area without significantly increasing the size of the conductor.

Even properly constructed Litz wires will exhibit some skin effect due to the limitations of stranding. Wires intended for higher frequency ranges require more strands of a finer gauge size than Litz wires of equal cross-sectional area but composed of fewer and larger strands.

Proximity effect is the tendency for current to flow in loops or concentrated distributions due to the presence of magnetic fields generated by nearby conductors. In transformers and inductors, proximity effect losses are generally more significant than skin effect losses. In Litz wire windings, proximity effect may be sub-divided into internal proximity effect (the effect of other currents within the bundle) and outer proximity effect ( the effect of the current in other bundles). The reason for twisting or weaving Litz wire, rather than just grouping fine conductors together, is to ensure that the strand currents are equal. Simple twisted bunched conductor wire can accomplish this adequately where proximity effect would be the only significant problem with solid wire. Where skin effect would also be a problem, more complex Litz wire constructions can be used to ensure equal strand currents. Therefore, in a well-designed construction, strand currents are nearly equal.

H9

P.s. I was going to PM you this so numb nuts StILLeArNiNG would have to do his own research, but I'm not THAT vindictive. I'm sure he'll find some way to argue about it though :rolleyes:

vc69 · October 2009

LessisNevermore wrote: »

The question still stands though, 'why does it sound better?' (construction characteristics)

And because I can't keep from playing Devil's advocate....What makes you think it'll sound better to me?:p:D

As so many have stated, it may or may not. To me the differences in cables vary from subtle to striking. To me it's a question of economics. I have some average price transparent cables that I can't tell from good cheap no-names. I also have some extremely expensive Cardas cables that I find to be amazing. I had no idea what they cost when I listened to them and decided they were the ones I "had to have". Turns out I could never afford them (over $1k IC's, ridiculous). But I definitely like them better than any other cable I have heard in my system.

I think part of this discussion's never-ending nature is that some people just can't hear those subtle differences. I say good for them.
But the non believers never seem to be able to say to us "good for you" and be done with it.

The subtle differences are not_so_subtle when you are familiar with the system and source material. If I couldn't hear the differences, I wouldn't bother with it. I can.

/.02

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

F1nut wrote: »

sTiLlLeArNiNg,

You are missing a very important point. Just because a cable is constructed one way or the other does not mean it will sound the best in every system. What works well with one system may not work well in another. The only way to know for sure is to try the cable in your system. Synergy is key and trumps everything else, including price.

Lesson over.

God bless and enjoy the music.

Actually i never missed that! Clearly you missed that i already understood that lol

@ heiney: My **** aren't numb! I'm scratchin' 'em right now! lol

Thank's for the linkage :cool:

Montoya · October 2009

This argument is ridonkulous!

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

Montoya wrote: »

This argument is ridonkulous!

This is not an argument but rather a passionate discusion

LessisNevermore · October 2009

Montoya wrote: »

This argument is ridonkulous!

I really don't think anyone is actually arguing here. (at the moment);)

LessisNevermore · October 2009

vc69 wrote: »

As so many have stated, it may or may not. To me the differences in cables vary from subtle to striking. To me it's a question of economics. I have some average price transparent cables that I can't tell from good cheap no-names. I also have some extremely expensive Cardas cables that I find to be amazing. I had no idea what they cost when I listened to them and decided they were the ones I "had to have". Turns out I could never afford them (over $1k IC's, ridiculous). But I definitely like them better than any other cable I have heard in my system.

I think part of this discussion's never-ending nature is that some people just can't hear those subtle differences. I say good for them.
But the non believers never seem to be able to say to us "good for you" and be done with it.

The subtle differences are not_so_subtle when you are familiar with the system and source material. If I couldn't hear the differences, I wouldn't bother with it. I can.

/.02

Ok, let me try this another way.....but you're correct. The manufacturers want to keep their recipes a secret.

Guitar strings are available in different winds, with different materials, some are cryogenically treated, etc., etc., yada.

The traits each of them have, are known, and can aid in the selection process. There are other variables that come into play, like what kind of wood the guitar is made from, pickups, amps, etc. Variables similar to what we find in our audio gear.

No, you don't know exactly how they'll sound with your gear until you try them, but if you already have bright sounding gear, you probably don't want to add silver wires everywhere.....it would just be easier, to have an idea of a particular cable's traits ahead of time, because I'd rather spend time listening to music, than listening to wires.

F1nut · October 2009

Actually i never missed that! Clearly you missed that i already understood that lol

Yeah, I guess I did as I was under the impression you knew nothing.

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

F1nut wrote: »

Yeah, I guess I did as I was under the impression you knew nothing.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ROTFLMFAO

Assumption is the mother of all fak-up's don't ya know?

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

F1nut · October 2009

There is a difference between an impression and an assumption. An assumption would indicate a guess based on little to no facts. An impression is based on facts and since you said you didn't know jack, my impression that you don't know jack remains accurate. However, your assumption is clearly without merit.

kawizx9r · October 2009

Geez, I just went back and read some of those posts.

I'd just like to say one word to the one that thinks he's learning around here, hypocrite.

To the rest on here that have helped me out along the way to make my setup sound better than it used to, thank you.

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the music. :cool:

vc69 · October 2009

LessisNevermore wrote: »

Ok, let me try this another way.....but you're correct. The manufacturers want to keep their recipes a secret.

.....it would just be easier, to have an idea of a particular cable's traits ahead of time, because I'd rather spend time listening to music, than listening to wires.

I agree 100%.

Some manufacturers are more forthcoming than others. I am leery of any that are unwilling to disclose things like materials used and so on. That said, each cable company seems to have different ideas about interleave and twist, number of conductors, dielectric components, etc.
I don't really care about any of that crap. If it sounds better to me, I'd like to understand why.
Fact is, I don't have a background in physics so it escapes me. What doesn't is the result. Certain cables make my system sound a little better to me. That I know for sure.

I'm not sure there is any way to quantify this. I think that it's different for different systems. The cables I like in my setup may not be the ones you would like in yours and so on.

Guitar strings are much the same. I may like Dean Markley on my Tele and Silk on Steele Martins on my Takamine. You could have exactly the same instruments and think I was crazy. Some may be able to tell the difference in the way they sound, some may not. We could though, because we know our instruments. String players prefer certain rosins and such. I might not be able to tell a difference, but because they are intimately familiar with their instruments, they definitely can and who would I be to question their choices?

I actually think the string analogy is a good one. It's just that differences in speaker wire and in particular IC cables is quite a bit more subtle and dependent on synergy with the other components. Also, and quite unfortunately for me, the expensive ones seem to give the most pleasing results. The Cardas cables I am currently using are quite striking. I would challenge anybody NOT to hear a difference.
Not worth the over $2k retail price to me. But definitely the best I have ever heard.

In the end, it is the music that matters, but I do so love to hear it reproduced well.:)

vc69 · October 2009

vc69 wrote: »

Not worth the over $2k retail price to me. But definitely the best I have ever heard.

I should point out for posterity that I have two pair in play, a 2m set of Gold Standards and a set of prototype's that a friend loaned me. They are both amazing but the prototype set is just stunning between my amp and preamp. They are probably worth more than the gear they are connected to.

Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

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