Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

DarqueKnight

ben62670 wrote: »

I am disappointed at you finding entertainment in ignorance:(

You're no fun anymore.

ben62670

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I'm going out tonight also.

But H9 and Ben, would you guys give a little thought to a good name for a crime fighting team that's dedicated to eliminating the Corrupt Conspiratorial Cable Cartel (4C)?

How about Kable Krusher and Sparky?

Eh. These guys don't need to be titled;)
Take care DR. And many thanks for seeking documental proof on what you have heard. Guys like you are few and far between.
Ben

DarqueKnight

Good night Ben.

Don't spend too much time ridin' that Bike and drivin' that old Capri.;)

ben62670

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Good night Ben.

Don't spend too much time ridin' that Bike and drivin' that old Capri.;)

Na. I am going to watch a movie with the kids. When you go out to eat please don't let the waiter tell you that two dishes will taste the same do to calories, temp, and fat content being the same:p

Take care:)
Ben

seafire

Good evening all.I also have been out tonight.Just got back and there were 2 pages extra!.DK I really was genuine with my questions.Thank you for your reply but gee wizz already keep it calm!! .I now realize that your speaks have been updated all along.With regards to your hearing I never said it was inferior just maybe different.Again thank you for your reply!.Having consumed a couple of alcoholic toots tonight I can honestly say...this thread still rules .In this plain old boring day of age nothing better than some different opinions.I would say I am 50% convinced.Still I mantain that I can get close too or equal to the same results with home engineering.But hey that's just my take on the situation.KEEP ON TRUCKING YE ALL ;);)
ps I said that DK was meticulous with his replies

polkie4life

seafire wrote: »

Good evening all.I also have been out tonight.Just got back and there were 2 pages extra!.DK I really was genuine with my questions.Thank you for your reply but gee wizz already keep it calm!! .I now realize that your speaks have been updated all along.With regards to your hearing I never said it was inferior just maybe different.Again thank you for your reply!.Having consumed a couple of alcoholic toots tonight I can honestly say...this thread still rules .In this plain old boring day of age nothing better than some different opinions.I would say I am 50% convinced.Still I mantain that I can get close too or equal to the same results with home engineering.But hey that's just my take on the situation.KEEP ON TRUCKING YE ALL ;);)
ps I said that DK was meticulous with his replies

Now we're talking. What sort of home engineering?

seafire

polkie4life wrote: »

Now we're talking. What sort of home engineering?

Playing with different cable setups etc.I am not even going to say the word/words .Bottom line is that we are all in the same crazy hobby and the love for music.To each man his own ;);)

polkie4life

seafire wrote: »

Playing with different cable setups etc.I am not even going to say the word/words .Bottom line is that we are all in the same crazy hobby and the love for music.To each man his own ;);)

I've yet to try swapping out speaker cables but have played around with a couple of different I/C's between power amp and HT amp. I'm looking forward to trying different speaker cables and if the differences are as noticeable as with the interconnects it should be good. I'm not talking uber expensive cable swapping either, we're talking a'quest sidewinders and straightwire chorus....

Flash21

bikezappa wrote: »

There is even a rule in science that states that you can never know the exact position and momentum of very small objects because the very act of measuring them distrubs them or changes them. This has no practical relationship to audio that I know of however. It realy states that some part of things are somewhat random and there maybe free will.

Hey, a quantum physics reference, I've been waiting for that one...

lightman1

CoolJazz wrote: »

This often quoted logic of a 100 miles (or whatever distance) of power line coming to your house is really, really silly and ignores basic facts!

There is a power transformer just about right outside your house. It's a stepdown transformer. There are also other points in the grid where stepdown occurs. Noise and other disturbances are stepped down at that point, not to mention that the transformer naturally rolls off higher frequency information.

And, very importantly, the transformer secondary presents a low impedance source to your home service. The closer you can keep yourself to that low impedance, the less noise you will have. Which is why circuit separation and load balance are important.

So lower your "mileage" by about 99.99 miles and inject some common sense into your arguement!!

Cool Jazz

Just catching up here. Jazz Nailed it with this one. Sure there are variables in the transmission of primary power from station to drop point to TX. But it is at the Tx secondary that you have the best chance of picking up EMI, RF or any other of the wee-beasties that can plague clean power. The 120/240v that is in your house is even more vulnerable to interferance, microwave ovens, computers etc. Bad grounds in a circuit can cause problems! I, myself cannot hear the difference between a $100 PC and a $500 PC. But I can hear a difference between stock and some of the beeter quality aftermarket cords,IC's and speaker connects. My hearing starts to roll off around 10Khz.
Do I SEE a difference from a bench test view of data? Sure. Do I HEAR anything better? Not really.
Science this... Lemmings that... You're stupid for not buying the most expensive cable... You're stupid for doing so.... We can piss on each others boots all day long and never come to a solid, fact based, written in scripture end to this.
We hear what we hear with what we have. If you don't like what you hear, change something. If it sounds better to you, love it.
But don't expect everyone to agree with what you have found. Offer them the chance to try it and don't get upset if they don't like it.


Trust your ears and just listen to the music...Music, the ORIGINAL reason why we're all here in the first place.

ben62670

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I'm going out tonight also.

But H9 and Ben, would you guys give a little thought to a good name for a crime fighting team that's dedicated to eliminating the Corrupt Conspiratorial Cable Cartel (4C)?

How about Kable Krusher and Sparky?

Well things just pop into my mind. I certainly didn't want to give any title to a troll, but it was just too easy. Well some hero's that have been around for a long time are the Xmen. Well X-Crap was just way too easy. Maybe X-crap can save the word of Higher end audio with some help from other HiFi audio insurgents?
Hope your evening went well.
Ben

bikezappa

Nature bats last.

shack

RT1 said it best.

ben62670

xcapri79 wrote: »

6 C's, Crusaders Combatting Corrupt Conspiratorial Cable Cartel has a ring to it.

LOL. Yeah we are conspiring to get people to waste money on cables:rolleyes: Again ignorance at its best.
Rock on.
Ben

ben62670

What is "our" agenda. Please continue to promote your blatant ignorance.
Polk Audio stays out of cable debates. If you preach that you are a Republican, Christian, or other group you have then just alienated yourself from a large percentage of close minded people that will choose another product just because said person disagrees with what a company says about something that is debatable. Was that simple enough for you to understand?
Thanks
Ben

ben62670

Please keep posting. You are a great source of laughs.
Again many thanks
Ben

heiney9

xcapri79 wrote: »

I would like to see the peanut gallery stay quiet and allow for some intelligent discourse on this.

So I guess we won't be hearing from you again for awhile. :rolleyes:

ben62670

I am patiently waiting for X-crapper to post something intelligent. I have been waiting a long long long time. June 07 is how long I have been waiting for the Xster to post something intelligent, and still nothing:rolleyes:

ben62670

He had to edit his posts how many times.:rolleyes:
I think he is mad because he hasn't made any friends yet:(
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/member.php?u=81019

lightman1

Keiko wrote: »

You're going to be waiting for forever and a day Ben. Just a hypothesis, but I bet 79 Ford likes peanutbutter PIE. :rolleyes:

I'll fire up the oven, Mike.
Do you know if he likes whipped cream or not?

ben62670

Keiko wrote: »

You're going to be waiting for forever and a day Ben. Just a hypothesis, but I bet 79 Ford likes peanutbutter PIE. :rolleyes:

OK maybe I was a little rough. I'll even make it a little easier.
X-crappie please just say anything intelligent. It doesn't even have to pertain to audio if that helps.
Thanks
Ben

ben62670

lightman1 wrote: »

I'll fire up the oven, Mike.
Do you know if he likes whipped cream or not?

Three stooges style:D

inspiredsports

xcapri79 wrote: »

DK makes an eloquent argument to support this but so do those who support faith-healing as a cure for cancer.

Faith has nothing to do with the improvement in the reproduction of sound we are discussing. I don't believe anyone here is saying they base their findings on faith. We simply install and listen to a variety of cables.

xcapri79 wrote: »

. . . it is unfortunate that forums such as this are used to promote them, instead of debunking them . . .

What ??? Forum members aren't allowed to have and express their opinions?

xcapri79 wrote: »

What is Polk Audio's official position on this?

You might have missed the thread, but Polk used to produce higher quality, higher priced cables.

xcapri79 wrote: »

I would like to see the peanut gallery stay quiet and allow for some intelligent discourse on this.

So those who disagree with your opinion are the "peanut gallery" and only your anti high-line cable agenda is to be allowed?

I've always gotten great advice here. I'm sorry you haven't. Why don't you cut the negative rhetoric, settle in, and try to improve the sound of your system instead of bashing those who do, because that's what this forum is really about.

bikezappa

It is very clear that most of the posters in this forum beleive that line cords, ICs and speaker wires have a dramatic effect on the sound of their equipment. Just because they are a majority it doesn't make them correct however. It is just amazing that this dramatic effect can't be demonstared with DBTing.

I don't say they are making up this belief or they are trying to fool people, I just politely ask how can this be? Can you demonstrate it or expalin it based on electrical laws. Their response is to call me names and snicker and refer me to web sites of companies that sell these wires.

Doesn't that response tell you something dear reader?

Anyway the debate if you can call it that has run it's course unless there are new names to call me or some new data to demonstrate their experience with wires?

You can beleive what you want about wires and if it helps you enjoy music that's great. That's what is all about - having fun listening to music on your system.

I'm glad for you all of you.

My suggest for the name of the haters club would "Logic".

The beauty of the laws of electrical engineering to me is that every thing electrical can be summarized as a mixture/combination of resistance, capacitance and inductance. There are simple and complex laws and formulas that predict the performance of these circuits. Many smart people have been trying to understand and make electrical things for you to use. Just don't let vodoo electrical BS confuse you.

inspiredsports

bikezappa wrote: »

It is very clear that most of the posters in this forum beleive that line cords, ICs and speaker wires have a dramatic effect on the sound of their equipment. Just because they are a majority it doesn't make them correct however. It is just amazing that this dramatic effect can't be demonstared with DBTing.

I don't say they are making up this belief or they are trying to fool people, I just politely ask how can this be? Can you demonstrate it or expalin it based on electrical laws. Their response is to call me names and snicker and refer me to web sites of companies that sell these wires.

Doesn't that response tell you something dear reader?

Anyway the debate if you can call it that has run it's course unless there are new names to call me or some new data to demonstrate their experience with wires?

You can beleive what you want about wires and if it helps you enjoy music that's great. That's what is all about - having fun listening to music on your system.

I'm glad for you all of you.

My suggest for the name of the haters club would "Logic".

The beauty of the laws of electrical engineering to me is that every thing electrical can be summarized as a mixture/combination of resistance, capacitance and inductance. There are simple and complex laws and formulas that predict the performance of these circuits. Many smart people have been trying to understand and make electrical things for you to use. Just don't let vodoo electrical BS confuse you.

Look, I don't know how it works for you, but I have a 28X28 finished area of walk my out basement that comprises my home office and my "man cave"

One 28' wall contains 2 complete rigs driving tweaked Polk SDA-2B's and tweaked Polk SDA SRS 2's. When I say tweaked, I mean new Sonicaps, resistors, RDO198-1's, Mortite and Dynamat, Cardas connectors and silver wire SDA interconnects. No they are not 10K speakers, but the sound is very good and revealing. Fortunately, the music side of the room allows for perfect placement of the SDA's and my favorite leather recliner.

I have several tape decks, cd players and turntables and an assortment or speaker cables and interconnects that I can easily change out.

I'm very connected to how the system sounds as I listen to music 8 to 10 hours per day while in the office, so I've had thousands of hours to swap components in and out. I swap a component, and then work with the music is in the background.

When I get sucked away from my desk chair and into that recliner, reaching for the remote to kick up the volume, with a big grin on my face and the hair on the back of my neck standing up, I know I've found a new component that's a keeper. That's how I tested 7 different main speaker cables to get to what many might consider the crazy priced **** I'm enjoying today.

I guess it would be nice to have some kind of electronic meter that does it for you, but that would sure take the fun out of what is after all, just a wonderful hobby.

Maybe it's like a painting where the artist is never satisfied with the first layer of paint. We eventually craft "masterpiece" sound that many appreciate, but there is no technical recipe to define it. It's our own unique creation.


PS.: It's a bit ironic, but when I started I was skeptical too. I was gifted or spent thousands of dollars climbing the "cable ladder" to get to the cables I have in play today. One of the senior members in the group shared where he thought the real improvements began before I started. I ended up just one rung above that initial recommendation.

heiney9

inspiredsports wrote: »

a wonderful hobby.

+1000.

Naysayers and closed minded EE's read my signature. THAT is what it's all about.

DarqueKnight

"The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

Wow. This was spoken by an internationally esteemed physicist who has spent decades contributing some of the most innovative high end audio amplifier designs ever created. Seems like, with the quality and quantity of test equipment he has, he would be using his vast knowledge and experience to quantify everything. Seems like that would help him sell more amplifiers.

The simple truth is that there are many types of electrical phenomena that can't be reduced to simple gross measurements of resistance, inductance and capacitance. Truly knowledgeable individuals understand that a flow of electrons through a conductor is primarily interacting with that conductor on the molecular and atomic (quantum) level. In order to get the "whole story" of a cable's or component's performance, we would need to measure a signal's interaction with a cable or component at the quantum level in addition to the gross or macro level.

It is interesting, and telling, that you never, ever, ever, ever hear or read someone from the naysayers cult say something like the following:

inspiredsports wrote: »

When I get sucked away from my desk chair and into that recliner, reaching for the remote to kick up the volume, with a big grin on my face and the hair on the back of my neck standing up, I know I've found a new component that's a keeper.

I can definitely relate. In my case, the more resolving my audio system became, the more of a distraction it became. I get sucked away from the desk in my home office just to listen to a favorite song or sometimes just a particular part of a song. I get sucked away, for just a few minutes, from preparing a meal in the kitchen to go listen to that clean, well defined, articulate rumbling, grumbling bass growl that I like. I sometimes stay up way past bedtime to listen to a few more songs.

Now, if I were constantly reading naysayers saying similar things about their noisy, low performance amps, preamps and cables, I would think there was some validity to the premise that you can obtain top notch sound with bottom notch money. But I never read such. All I read from the naysayer cultists is that those who have invested in quality sound reproduction equipment are wasting money, are stupid, are deluded, etc., and that all the manufacturers of such equipment are snake oil purveyors.

So strong is the bitterness of the naysayer's sour grapes is that they can't even confine their venom to appropriate discussions. If we are talking about speaker cables (this thread), they pop in with invective about $500 power cords. If we are talking about subwoofers, they pop in with sarcasm about $400 power cords:

xcapri79 wrote: »

Only if I connect them with $400 power cables.

Pitiful.

heiney9

The thing is even my modest little office rig I replaced "zip" cord with my own DIY version of Shotgun style constructed Canare wire with the same banana plugs and heard a very subtle but marked improvement in sound stage, bass response and guess what else......over long periods of listening the fatigue was almost non existent.

So while you naysayers and closed minded cult leaders are livid at the fact people spend so much of THEIR OWN MONEY on higher priced cables w/no difference whatsoever according to your cult......even modest priced DIY cables in a very low budget system (comparatively) differences are apparent. Imagine what differences can be heard with even better cable on even better resolving systems.


Oh wait...............you cable naysaysers can't imagine that because you are unwilling to even try it.

H9

P.s. For the record my office rig is this:

Re-badged Dared MP5 integrated hybrid tube amp (13wpc)
AMC DAC 8 digital to analog converter
FLAC files played from the computer
Harmonic Technologies Toslink cable
Signal Cable Analog II I/C's
Polk Audio Monitor 5B's (circa 1986) w/Solen's; Mills and RD0's
DIY Shotgun (double runs) Canare 4S8 cables with banana plugs.
Total cost (minus the computer) used <$500 and I can hear differences in I/C's and speaker cables.

Face

Cable advice from xcapri is like getting sex advice from a 40 year old virgin.

bikezappa

[QUOTE=DarqueKnight;

The simple truth is that there are many types of electrical phenomena that can't be reduced to simple gross measurements of resistance, inductance and capacitance.
Pitiful.[/QU

Wrong. The frequency domain of audio electronic circuits are well understood and predictable.

Yes it is pitiful for a EE to say that.

DK can't prove there are dramatic differences with any tests. Why not if it is dramatic?

DK's claims violate EE circuit laws for line cords and fuses.

DK says this is a speaker cable thread again. Gee wizz I think about every topic under the sun has been brought up on this thread and now he wants to restrict topics.

Ok round and round we go. No new information.

DK I would very interested in a quote or a paper that states or comments that line cords or fuses can change the sound of a system from an independent EE organization that has been here for 50 years.