Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

Lowell_M

Sorry Megasat... One more post...

Thoughts to improve the efficiency of this and future cable debates:
1. This is a place to learn and share experiences
2. OP bought expensive cables and didn’t hear a difference, so

a. He didn’t hear a difference, so can go back to using his less expensive cables

b. He could listen to some advice from those who do feel that cables make a difference as to why he might not have heard a difference

3. Those who haven’t experienced a difference in cables because they haven’t tried different cables should consider keeping their traps shut because they can’t speak from personal experience, which is what this hobby is all about
4. Those who have taken similar path as 2.a. have a right to express their agreement
5. Those who have taken similar path as 2.b. have a right to explain what they have discovered.

a. Cables might not make a difference in a lower end system or.. the synergy of the components in the system also contributes to the effectiveness of the cable swap

b. Cables might sound different to one person and not another

c. Not everybody likes the same type of sound

d. Etc.

6. Those who have taken path 3 have no right to give any further opinion

TECHNOKID

bikezappa wrote: »

I also trusted my ears when I listened to equipment and compared them.

When I finally set up a simple double blind test I was shocked that I couldn't demonstrate any differnce. I'm not saying you can't however. I'm just interested if you or anyone can demostrate the differnce in speaker cables or other equipment by double blind testing. I am not calling you names or accusing you of anything. I think many people would be very interested in the results of double blind testing before spending their money.

I'm interested in data more than opinions.

+1! Some data would be quite positive and welcomed in this discussion

DarqueKnight

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Please check the below quote which is from POST #1 THE OP and try post a different statement!

The OP DID try some different and WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED in the end result and COMPANY PROMISES!
Thank YOU!!

Thanks, but no thanks. This is what the OP said:

bobt wrote: »

I have a 12 gauge speaker cable, I will not say which kind. I went and spent $250 (on sale)...some supposed great cable......NO DAM DIFFERENCE.

No way you could tell the difference between the 2.

You'd have to be very desperate, pitiful and have some hidden agenda if you find the OP's statement INFORMATIVE and USEFUL.

The OP said he tried a 12 gauge cable but he REFUSED to say which, nor did he elaborate on the associated equipment used with the cable or discuss the kind of music listened to.

Let me get this straight: Someone walks in, says he tried a cable and it didn't work, then we are supposed to take that and make a useful and intelligent inference from it? You naysayers are always accusing performance audiophiles of "living by faith", yet you put up an example of someone who refuses to divulge the full information regarding his cable trial and expect us to "have faith" that it was a valid trial. If that's all it takes for you to be "convinced" good for you.

If I had the kind of deductive ability necessary to make sense of this kind of "brand X" trial, I would rather use it to predict winning power ball numbers.:rolleyes:

TECHNOKID

Keiko wrote: »

This one's dedicated to all you trolls out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvP5xRTwgXU

While quite entertaining (some nice leggs on that stage ) it is still useless to the discussion at hand however, some good humour is always welcomed

Lowell_M

TECHNOKID wrote: »

+1! Some data would be quite positive and welcomed in this discussion

Please refer to section 2.a. or 3, whichever fits you best. It will improve the nature and quality of this thread.

ben62670

TECHNOKID wrote: »

+1! Some data would be quite positive and welcomed in this discussion

Again if you think you can measure what everyone hears you are on a different planet. It is a good start, but as for the listening experience it holds no weight till you can prove how others ears, nerves, and minds process such data...
Rock on young child.
Ben

Lowell_M

ben62670 wrote: »

Again if you think you can measure what everyone hears you are on a different planet. It is a good start, but as for the listening experience it holds no weight till you can prove how others ears, nerves, and minds process such data...
Rock on young child.
Ben

This comment supported by section 5 of the cable discussion guide.

ben62670

a_mattison wrote: »

This comment supported by section 5 of the cable discussion guide.

LOL
[in a robotic voice]
I googled it and can not find any data on such section so I will continue to spew what my mind has been programed to spew by others on other forums.

Lowell_M

a_mattison wrote: »

Sorry Megasat... One more post...

Thoughts to improve the efficiency of this and future cable debates:
1. This is a place to learn and share experiences
2. OP bought expensive cables and didn’t hear a difference, so

a. He didn’t hear a difference, so can go back to using his less expensive cables

b. He could listen to some advice from those who do feel that cables make a difference as to why he might not have heard a difference

3. Those who haven’t experienced a difference in cables because they haven’t tried different cables should consider keeping their traps shut because they can’t speak from personal experience, which is what this hobby is all about
4. Those who have taken similar path as 2.a. have a right to express their agreement
5. Those who have taken similar path as 2.b. have a right to explain what they have discovered.

a. Cables might not make a difference in a lower end system or.. the synergy of the components in the system also contributes to the effectiveness of the cable swap

b. Cables might sound different to one person and not another

c. Not everybody likes the same type of sound

d. Etc.

6. Those who have taken path 3 have no right to give any further opinion

Sorry, Ben. I forgot to title this the Cable Discussion Guide

ben62670

More entertaining than this thread
http://joecartoon.atom.com/cartoons/147-monkey_looker
Edit:Sorry I forgot the oh look at me big colors and text.
Thanks
Ben

DarqueKnight

bikezappa wrote: »

I think what you are saying is that the differnces in audio you are pursuing are revealed with very expense and sensitive equipment. If so we agree.

No. What I clearly said was that there are TOO MANY perception variables at work to make DBT'ing of audio phenomenon valid.

It is not just the variances in equipment resolution. There are also the differences in human hearing response, hearing tastes and preferences, ear training, etc. One of the things I "key in" on is sound stage rendering. I am specifically looking for how weighty, focused, three dimensional and stable images are within a sound stage. Another person might couldn't care less about imaging. That person might just key in on clarity and definition. Two cables may be equal in the way they facilitate image clarity and definition, but one might exceed the other in sound stage rendering. For the person only interested in clarity and definition, the two cables would sound alike. For me, because of my listening preferences, the cables would sound very different.

bikezappa wrote: »

And I also agree that DBT may not be the best test.

Thank you.

bikezappa wrote: »

But maybe consider that DBTs is a method to determine if the audio differences are large or small.

It might and it might not. Here again, perception plays a role...like for instance, how sweet is "too" sweet? For one person, two lumps of sugar in their coffee is just right. For another person who prefers black coffee, two lumps is too sweet. Yet another person, accustomed to four lumps of sugar in their coffee, two lumps is not sweet enough. Same brand of coffee, same brand and amount of sugar, yet three different quantitative perceptions and interpretations.

TECHNOKID

Norm Apter wrote: »

This raises a fundamentally important point: just as people vary in terms of eyesight (i.e. some go their whole life with near perfect 20/20 vision while others' require glasses/eye contacts and a big range in between, not to mention deteriorating eyesight over time), would it not make sense that people's aural abilities also vary?

I'm glad you brought this up because I was wondering what the opinion was on this matter from those who question differences among speaker/IC/power cable.

Very good point you bring to the table!

rmc57

Your right how good can they be. and can your hear even tell the diff

treitz3

bikezappa wrote: »

I also trusted my ears when I listened to equipment and compared them.

When I finally set up a simple double blind test I was shocked that I couldn't demonstrate any differnce.

Then it is apparent, your hearing abilities are not quite like mine. Can you tell the difference between a CD and an SACD?

TECHNOKID

bobt wrote: »

OK..interconnet cables is NOT what i was talking about....speaker cables are.
I have SDA 1C's.....and don't have crap equipment.

Most of these insane dollor cables are made from type 5 or 6 cables....do you even know what they are??????

Do you even know what they were built for...my guess is NOT. Do you even know how thick they are?

bobt wrote: »

OK..good lord..you people really don't get the fact of what these cables are made from.

Is my system calibrated?.....your jokeing right.

I have a set of SDA 1C's
Adcom 400 (not the best)
Sony XA3ES
Onkyo Intergra M-504
Plus other stuff..yes there set the right way off the wall.
Do i have aset seat from the speakers...NO..I move around the room.....I don't say that at 10 feet (or whatever)...this is the best...I tend to move as to what seems best for the recording..but the SDA handles that. But thats me. It depends on how loud i what to play it.
But dose the cable I'm using make a big difference......once you get to a certen level....NO

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Thanks, but no thanks. This is what the OP said:



You'd have to be very desperate, pitiful and have some hidden agenda if you find the OP's statement INFORMATIVE and USEFUL.

The OP said he tried a 12 gauge cable but he REFUSED to say which, nor did he elaborate on the associated equipment used with the cable or discuss the kind of music listened to.

Let me get this straight: Someone walks in, says he tried a cable and it didn't work, then we are supposed to take that and make a useful and intelligent inference from it? You naysayers are always accusing performance audiophiles of "living by faith", yet you put up an example of someone who refuses to divulge the full information regarding his cable trial and expect us to "have faith" that it was a valid trial. If that's all it takes for you to be "convinced" good for you.

If I had the kind of deductive ability necessary to make sense of this kind of "brand X" trial, I would rather use it to predict winning power ball numbers.:rolleyes:

Sorry DarqueKnight, you get a green light for the cable brand but you get a red light for gear and music. I tought you were right about the gear but a quick check back in time proves otherwise.

Cheers

treitz3

hearingimpared wrote: »

You crack me up. Why should any one have to demonstrate their ability to hear differences in audio gear by your standard? When you audition pieces of gear you are going to purchase do you go through the trouble of setting up a scientifically controlled double blind test before a purchase? I think not.

Joe, I wouldn't doubt that not one of the [you know who I'm talking about] folks just skipped right on past this one without a thought. Well, there was one.....

......when someone says things that make no sense or contradic the laws of nature and physics I question it. As I'm sure you would also. We all want informed advice to improve our systems. I don't understand why I can't question your experiences without every one going **** house.

Look man, there are standard wires and then there are some with shielding, network boxes and still some with battery packs. Not to mention, build quality, types of wires, construction, soldering and wire materials, etc.. Did you ever for one moment think that these may change a few things? Was this thought about or even discussed during physics class?

I thought so.

Flash21

bikezappa wrote: »

What is unreasonable about talking about double blind testing?

Talking about double blind testing is fine...demanding that I do it in my home is unreasonable. Seriously, how would I set that up? It would be VERY difficult to do a proper DB test in my house...or yours for that matter.

Again, single blind is fine for my purposes. I am confident that bias is not present in any significant form in the tests I have done. Believe me, I am not motivated to enjoy spending money on cables.

heiney9

Look man, there are standard wires and then there are some with shielding, network boxes and still some with battery packs. Not to mention, build quality, types of wires, construction, soldering and wire materials, etc.. Did you ever for one moment think that these may change a few things? Was this thought about or even discussed during physics class?

No point in trying to be rational with irrational people (naysayers).

ben62670

ben62670 wrote: »

More entertaining than this thread
http://joecartoon.atom.com/cartoons/147-monkey_looker
Edit:Sorry I forgot the oh look at me big colors and text.
Thanks
Ben

Pay attention to me! I went out of my way to post something irrelevant to this discussion, and I want to be acknowledged:mad: Also it is very funny and reminds me of some of our newer members.
Thanks
Ben

TECHNOKID

Look man, there are standard wires and then there are some with shielding, network boxes and still some with battery packs. Not to mention, build quality, types of wires, construction, soldering and wire materials, etc.. Did you ever for one moment think that these may change a few things? Was this thought about or even discussed during physics class?

No debate there, there are different quality of cables but the question is to which extent? Now, I don't know anything about battery operated cables, can you expand on this and provide the benefit of such cables as I don't have a clue about this type of cable. The AVR or AMP are actually applying power and modulates that power with the audio sent for the speakers, how is applying a different power source through the cable it self will improve the quality of the sound at the speaker? What is the relation of that new power with the already existing power provided by AVR/AMP? How is that new power interfaced/isolated from the AVR/AMP circuitry?

Cheers

heiney9

TECHNOKID wrote: »

No debate there, there are different quality of cables but the question is to which extent? Now, I don't know anything about battery operated cables, can you expand on this and provide the benefit of such cables as I don't have a clue about this type of cable. The AVR or AMP are actually applying power and modulates that power with the audio sent for the speakers, how is applying a different power source through the cable it self will improve the quality of the sound at the speaker? What is the relation of that new power with the already existing power provided by AVR/AMP? How is that new power interfaced/isolated from the AVR/AMP circuitry?

Cheers

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

TECHNOKID

heiney9 wrote: »

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

Thanks, doing the reading now!

Cheers

DarqueKnight

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Sorry DarqueKnight, you get a green light for the cable brand but you get a red light for gear and music. I tought you were right about the gear but a quick check back in time proves otherwise.

Cheers

Thanks for the thread research. I wish you had the same enthusiasm for getting your ears on as much gear as possible in order to form informed opinions. However, I realize that for many, talking about gear is more important than actually listening to it.

You have to realize that these types of threads are just comic relief and cheap entertainment for me and other performance audio enthusiasts. When an OP does not present a compelling initial statement, we typically don't sit glued to the computer screen until further facts become available.

In going back to the OP's first post, he says nothing at all about equipment and only provides musical genres rather than details on specific selections. It is a pity, and a crying shame, that you do not know the difference between listing a musical genre and actually listing the music used during a cable evaluation.

bobt wrote: »

I don't under stand the price for speaker cables....some cost more then the equipment there hookup to....The price is insane. The Stereophile mags review these....of course there not going to say anything bad about them..they get paid to do this...then sit there and try to tell you....oh yes we hear this one gives you more highs, or this one is more clear.....BULL...

Sorry..it's a piece of wire...when you get to a certain point...thats about it.

I have a 12 gauge speaker cable, I will not say which kind. I went and spent $250 (on sale)...some supposed great cable......NO DAM DIFFERENCE.

No way you could tell the difference between the 2. Now OK...."MAYBE" if your playing some violin thing........MAYBE you could hear something different, but my guess would be NOT. If I changed cables on these "reviewers"...they would not have a clue............

OK, I play mostly rock and blues, but do throw in some classic music.

If Stravinsky, or Tchaikovsky..sound the same to me, over different cables..well I get the fact.....basically you have just been riiped off, because it's called "audiophile"....and no I'm not tone deaf...I've mixed CD's for people , run PA mixers...I know what good sound is.

It's like Boats...if it's marine..you pay a ton....same crap you can buy for cheap...Audiophile.....the price goes up.....

Most of this "sound" is precived..just because you spent..300 plus on a cable.

The OP does not divulge equipment information until he is specifically asked for it in post #12:

janmike wrote: »

Ok, so what equipment do you have and what cables are you using?

He does not provide an equipment list until post #21.

bobt wrote: »

I have a set of SDA 1C's
Adcom 400 (not the best)
Sony XA3ES
Onkyo Intergra M-504

You must realize that I "check in" on these types of threads on an infrequent basis. When the OP did not make a valid argument from the beginning, he was dismissed as not being likely to provide relevant information. I should not have to go through the thread and string several of his posts together to get a clear picture of the circumstances and experiences that contributed to his opinion.

The OP admits that his Adcom GTP-400 is not the best. In fact, it is known to be a low resolution tuner-preamp. They are always available on the used market for around $100. Pointing out low quality in your gear is not a good way to inspire confidence in your cable evaluations.;) Not trying to bash, as I respect Adcom and currently own 7 Adcom amplifiers (GFA-555 Mk II, GFA-5400, and five GFA-5500's), and formerly owned five other Adcom amps (two GFA 555 Mk II's, a GFA-5802, and two GFA-565's). I have also owned six of their preamps (two GFP-565's, one GFP-555, one GFP-555 MkII, and two GFP-750's).

After the OP's reluctance to provide equipment and music selection details in the first post, is it any wonder why I didn't sit in front of my computer glued to the edge of my chair waiting on his next gem of audio enlightenment to descend from on high? Most of us (performance audio enthusiasts) were through with the OP when he admitted to using a cheap, noisy, low resolution preamp-tuner for a cable trial.

As far as music, this is what the OP said:

bobt wrote: »

OK, I play mostly rock and blues, but do throw in some classic music.

Telling us what musical genre he listened to does not provide useful information. He could have been listening to poorly recorded music. If you read equipment reviews in the professional audio press and many of the reviews here on this and other audio forums, you will find that the reviewer takes care to list the specific equipment and musical selections he used during an evaluation.

As an example, see my equipment and musical selection details provided in post #2 of this interconnect cable review to see how it is properly done.

Therefore, to revise my traffic light rankings:

1. I still have a green light on cable brand.
2. I have a green light on music (details baby, details!).
3. Since the OP did not provide equipment details until he was specifically asked in post #12 and since his response did not appear until post #21, I think I deserve a yellow light on that one. Some performance audio jurisdictions would grant me a green light on that one as well.:)

DarqueKnight

heiney9 wrote: »

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

Audioquest sucks.

ben62670

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Audioquest sucks.

Thems fighten words. I like the AQ sound:mad:

DarqueKnight

Calm down.

Since my two channel rig is full of delicious Audioquest DBS speaker and interconnect cables, I couldn't possibly have meant that AQ sucks in the bad sense of the word.

No. I meant AQ cables suck almost all of the lifelike detail and resolution out of an audio signal and relay that to the next component or loudspeaker for satisfying playback.

Stop being so negative.:)

TECHNOKID

Telling us what musical genre he listened to does not provide useful information. He could have been listening to poorly recorded music. If you read equipment reviews in the professional audio press and many of the reviews here on this and other audio forums, you will find that the reviewer takes care to list the specific equipment and musical selections he used during an evaluation.

As an example, see my equipment and musical selection details provided in post #2 of this interconnect cable review to see how it is properly done.

Therefore, to revise my traffic light rankings:

1. I still have a green light on cable brand.
2. I have a green light on music (details baby, details!).
3. Since the OP did not provide equipment details until he was specifically asked in post #12 and since his response did not appear until post #21, I think I deserve a yellow light on that one. Some performance audio jurisdictions would grant me a green light on that one as well.

First i would like to commend you for the review you have provided and other ones I read from you (matter of fact I wanted to do so on one of your latest discussion/review you have done but unfortunately I couldn't do so since it was closed before I could do so as it was closed by the mod as it became sour (shamefull!)).

This kind of discussion/reviews is exactly what I call positive and benificial to forum users. However, you can not expect new members to ALL be able to go in this fashion unless they are led on the right path. Some questions were asked as to which gear he was using and he responded according to what he actually tought he was asked... he then needed further instructions on the right path. In example, you or someone else could have led him (posted) to the link you have just provided me and then he could have possibly responded accordingly (depending on his willingness and ability to go that route) which then could have led this entire discussion toward a more positive result.

You nearly put your footh in your mouth with the audioquest comment (I am saying this with a big smile on my face meaning no accusation or harm) I have read the audioquest document with greath interest (in all honesty skipping most of the marketting spill at the end since that part is not suitable for my thurst of understanding this cable technology). Yet this leads me to do some testing in a near future.

Yet, this cable discussion has taken over the allocated time (I guess I am un-disciplined ) since my priorities are now gearing toward getting my spa in proper working condition with the summer season getting closer and closer :cool: Thank you for sharing, we will surely have some more encounter at the end of next week as I am leaving for Regina to take care of an event there and my planning isn't even completed

Cheers

michaeljhsda2

Michael was here

TECHNOKID

michaeljhsda2 wrote: »

Michael was here

Funny

BlueFox

TECHNOKID wrote: »

...since my priorities are now gearing toward getting my spa in proper working condition with the summer season getting closer and closer

I have to jump into this thread. Spas are best in the winter. Nothing like sitting in 105 degree water in the winter for 30-60 minutes. In the summer I can only last a few minutes in the spa.

Just to be on-topic, after I upgraded from 12 guage stranded hardware store copper to Mapleshade Double Golden Helix - Plus speaker cable I was amazed at the increase in sound quality. It was if I added a new component into the mix. Of course, I believe that is what people have been saying; cables are a component like anything else in the chain.