Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited March 2009
    seafire wrote: »
    Arrrgh what mentality primary school?? kindergarten? Who is calling what black I simply stated what I presume and so what if he doesnt want to participate.I can respect that...now back to your flock baaaaaa baaaaaa:mad:

    Isn't the real problem that we wouldn't just follow you :confused: Maybe we are a little more independant minded than you anticipated?
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    dkg999 wrote: »
    Isn't the real problem that we wouldn't just follow you :confused: Maybe we are a little more independant minded than you anticipated?
    Sigh:rolleyes:This is a forum everybody is free to follow who ever they want.However if I read my email of the last couple of days some people are interested in trying the grass on the other side.But unfortunately because of all the bashing here people are reluctant to voice their opinions.So my dear friends we have a forum that does not represent the whole truth here I go again...baaaaa....baaaaa:D
    But sooner or later the truth will prevail and that is that with a cheap budget and a little enthusiasm you can come very close to kicking some serious cable's butt.THAT'S ALL
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2009
    seafire wrote: »
    Arrrgh what mentality primary school?? kindergarten? Who is calling what black I simply stated what I presume and so what if he doesnt want to participate.I can respect that...now back to your flock baaaaaa baaaaaa:mad:

    You have given no other proof than you and your friend's (the electrical engineer) opinion from several years ago. Which is exactly what most have done here. Why is it up to US to prove your POV, shouldn't it be up to you?

    All I'm getting so far is a bunch of hot air from your direction. You seem like possibly you need to take your meds...........with all this passive/agressive posting. Have we really gotten that far under your skin?

    You request discourse, yet you constantly are over-reacting rather than presenting a coherent POV about what and why you believe, and the experiences that led you to this conclusion; as well as why other POV's presented here don't align with your findings.

    You ramble on, plus your sentence structure as well as the apperance on the page is tiresome, hard to follow, just plain pedestrian for someone who is trying to get a succinct point across and acts like he knows what he is talking about.

    Just my observations

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • ND13
    ND13 Posts: 7,601
    edited March 2009
    This may overtake the Emotiva Story thread.
    "SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
    CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE"
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  • Flash21
    Flash21 Posts: 316
    edited March 2009
    [sigh] I have formed my opinion of speaker cable performance by listening to various cables on my system. There is a difference between cables. It is repeatable and verifiable...on my system. I don't know about yours. And no, I haven't tried your Cat5-whatever (I have tried some cheaper alternatives such as the Anti-Cable)...but I would be happy to if you want to send some over.
    Steve Carlson
    Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
    Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
    Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
    Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
    VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
    Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    Flash21 wrote: »
    [sigh] I have formed my opinion of speaker cable performance by listening to various cables on my system. There is a difference between cables. It is repeatable and verifiable...on my system. I don't know about yours. And no, I haven't tried your Cat5-whatever (I have tried some cheaper alternatives such as the Anti-Cable)...but I would be happy to if you want to send some over.
    Hi I don't manufacture so you will have to make them yourself.However if you email me with your rig details I can point you in the right starting direction you would have to add or subtract twisted pairs until its sound just right for you.Making them for testing is a breeze ..you can always neaten them up after final conclusions.What I would need to know is your amp wattage and the diameter of your largest driver ie 6.5' ..8 '' 10 or 12;)
    Edit And what config you will be running bi amping or bi wiring?
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  • Flash21
    Flash21 Posts: 316
    edited March 2009
    I have a Bel Canto eVo2i integrated with 120 wpc.

    Speakers are Von Schweikert VR-2. They have two different 6.5" bass drivers: a subwoofer of sorts with very large voice coil and magnet, crossed over at 200 Hz, and an upper bass-mid driver that has a smaller voice coil and magnet and is optimized as a midrange driver, crossed over to the tweeter at 2.2 kHz.

    I am not currently bi-wiring but they can be. Cable runs are less than 6'.
    Steve Carlson
    Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
    Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
    Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
    Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
    VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
    Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    Steve, supposedly Goertz cables go hand in hand with VS.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Flash21
    Flash21 Posts: 316
    edited March 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Steve, supposedly Goertz cables go hand in hand with VS.
    Interesting. I have never tried them...the high-capacitance issue is of concern. But I will look into it.

    I note that my Analysis Oval Nine cables are sort of like the Goertz already... the AP "hollow oval" geometry is similarly flat, although not nearly to the extreme of the Goertz. But the Oval Nines are stranded wire, not "foil".
    Steve Carlson
    Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
    Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
    Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
    Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
    VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
    Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    Flash21 wrote: »
    I have a Bel Canto eVo2i integrated with 120 wpc.

    Speakers are Von Schweikert VR-2. They have two different 6.5" bass drivers: a subwoofer of sorts with very large voice coil and magnet, crossed over at 200 Hz, and an upper bass-mid driver that has a smaller voice coil and magnet and is optimized as a midrange driver, crossed over to the tweeter at 2.2 kHz.

    I am not currently bi-wiring but they can be. Cable runs are less than 6'.
    OK.We go the bi amping route.For the lower 6.5'' driver I would start with x 4 pieces of cat 5 ie 16 twisted pairs. Strip about 10cm of the outer casing exposing your twisted pairs. Divide all solids out and all stripes out.Strip about 3cm of the ends and gently twist together the wires taking care not to break any.For the listening tests we do not want a permanent termination yet as we will ad and remove twisted pairs.For the highs use 2 pieces of cat 5 ie 8 twisted pairs.Do the same as above.
    For the listening tests start with the low end.Choose music with fast attack something like snare drums and some stand up bass etc.Work from fat to thin removing a wire pair (x1 neg x1 pos) until the bass is at it's fastest but still full.ie not muddy but fast on attack yet warm sounding.Note the amount of wires remaining.If you have time and patience start in the opposite direction working thin to fat and note what amount of wires you end up with.
    Disconnect the bass and start the same procedure with the hi end. I listen for the maximum width and depth in the sound stage and also for clean sibilance.If for some reason you find that removing cable seems to be the wrong direction by all means add more if need be.I usually find that what I land up with on the highs as comfortable I would then go one step back towards aggression(over sibilance) as adding the woofer in the final round tends to soften off the highs.Once happy I carefully solder all wire together and terminate in a spade with shrink shroud for protection and extra strength.Enjoy the experiment;)
    BTW do your speakers have impedence compensation or correction networks??
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    The high capacitance shouldn't be an issue unless you're using a receiver or older tube amp. I've used their 14ga flatwire with an ST-70 without any issues, and their AG2 on a few sand amps without any issues. I believe their newer cables are shipped with Zobels built in, so oscillation should no longer be an issue.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    edited March 2009
    seafire wrote: »
    Hi I don't manufacture so you will have to make them yourself.However if you email me with your rig details I can point you in the right starting direction you would have to add or subtract twisted pairs until its sound just right for you.Making them for testing is a breeze ..you can always neaten them up after final conclusions.What I would need to know is your amp wattage and the diameter of your largest driver ie 6.5' ..8 '' 10 or 12;)
    Edit And what config you will be running bi amping or bi wiring?

    Curious - is this cable construction recipe your own personal "formula," or is it available somewhere else on the web? You seem to want us all to be dependent on you personally (via pm or email) instead of perhaps posting the "recipe" right here.
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    I have another design which I found worked very well but is a pain in the butt.This involves stripping the whole cable ...straightening all the twisted pairs and only winding three turns per foot or 1 turn every 10cm.Very painstaking I might add.This was out and out the best sounding but again in percentage maybe a 1-2 % improvement.I am the lazy type and would rather find that somewhere else.Another interesting combination is HQ 4mm OFC stranded copper on the lows and twisted pair cat 5 on the highs.This seemed to work well with woofers 12' and up;)
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    Curious - is this cable construction recipe your own personal "formula," or is it available somewhere else on the web? You seem to want us all to be dependent on you personally (via pm or email) instead of perhaps posting the "recipe" right here.
    LOL I just did ;)(post the designs) nothing special anyone can add or subtract from it:rolleyes:
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  • ND13
    ND13 Posts: 7,601
    edited March 2009
    seafire wrote: »
    I have another design which I found worked very well but is a pain in the butt.This involves stripping the whole cable ...straightening all the twisted pairs and only winding three turns per foot or 1 turn every 10cm.Very painstaking I might add.This was out and out the best sounding but again in percentage maybe a 1-2 % improvement.I am the lazy type and would rather find that somewhere else.Another interesting combination is HQ 4mm OFC stranded copper on the lows and twisted pair cat 5 on the highs.This seemed to work well with woofers 12' and up;)


    You keep saying that wire construction doesn't make any difference, but you just contradicted yourself.

    Yeah, you don't have to spend a grand for a good sounding pair of speaker cables, but most here buy their's used anyway. I had a pair of PS Audio Extreme Statements that MSRP'd for like a $1100, I paid a qtr of that for them in perfect shape. They are extremely thick and sounded much better than the RS 10 gauge I had, but not really any better than the Tara Labs RSC Prime Bi-wires that have been terminated into singles that I still use today that I got for $100 iirc. They're not as purty, but the sound is great. I also have a set of Signal Ultras that I throw in the mix every now and again to test the differences. While they are a fine cable, especially dollar to dollar value, they don't have the low end that the Taras bring to the game.

    That Cat 5 works great for my ethernet connections, though.
    "SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
    CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE"
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    ND13 wrote: »
    You keep saying that wire construction doesn't make any difference, but you just contradicted yourself.

    Yeah, you don't have to spend a grand for a good sounding pair of speaker cables, but most here buy their's used anyway. I had a pair of PS Audio Extreme Statements that MSRP'd for like a $1100, I paid a qtr of that for them in perfect shape. They are extremely thick and sounded much better than the RS 10 gauge I had, but not really any better than the Tara Labs RSC Prime Bi-wires that have been terminated into singles that I still use today that I got for $100 iirc. They're not as purty, but the sound is great. I also have a set of Signal Ultras that I throw in the mix every now and again to test the differences. While they are a fine cable, especially dollar to dollar value, they don't have the low end that the Taras bring to the game.
    Lol you say I contradict myself but read your own post back..PS AUdio's better than rs 10 gauge but not really any better than the tara labs rsc prime bi wires;)read all my posts I said you get to a level where the diff is so small that it becomes a waste of time..exactly what you said.Why do I want to spend 1000$ on cable when I can come pretty close and in some cases kick butt with a cheaper alternative.I live outside the USA prime cable like that is hard to find second hand and never at a quarter of the price!;)
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  • ND13
    ND13 Posts: 7,601
    edited March 2009
    seafire wrote: »
    Lol you say I contradict myself but read your own post back..PS AUdio's better than rs 10 gauge but not really any better than the tara labs rsc prime bi wires;)read all my posts I said you get to a level where the diff is so small that it becomes a waste of time..exactly what you said.Why do I want to spend 1000$ on cable when I can come pretty close and in some cases kick butt with a cheaper alternative.I live outside the USA prime cable like that is hard to find second hand and never at a quarter of the price!;)

    You're nonsensical. Is English your first language?

    I didn't contradict myself at all. I said that cables do make a difference and you don't have to spend a grand to get a good sounding quality cable.
    "SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
    CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE"
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    Why is anyone even paying attention to him, his intension is more than obvious.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • ND13
    ND13 Posts: 7,601
    edited March 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Why is anyone even paying attention to him, his intension is more than obvious.

    You're right. I just have too much time on my hands till Friday. I found a dealer that'll give me a demo, but I have to go back into the sales staff. It's a job at a dealer that's actually selling cars and the sales floor isn't flooded, woohoo. Plus I've worked with the GSM before at two different dealers, so I know how he operates.
    "SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
    CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE"
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    This is a little off the subject but so are other peoples posts.This thread reminds me off two interesting scenarios in my life.As a retired professional sports person I used to travel the world extensively.I lived in the USA for some time as well and brought with me a set of German car audio speakers nl.MB QUART.I was met with ridicule from most Americans who had never heard of it and would fight me to the death about Jenson Rockford Fostgate Polk audio etc.Not to suck up but the only speakers that sounded remotely decent happened to be Polk.Anyway fast forward 2 years and when I return to the States MB QUART is killing everything in it's path in terms of car audio Blaaaa blaaa the sheep mode was around at that time as well!. (Story2) I had only used American amps in my cars Soundstream Earthquake Rockford etc.One Sunday morning a close friend arrives and asked me to help him install x2 Pioneer amps into his car.I told him that we are wasting our time with this "**** crap".And low and behold when we fired those to babies up...amazingly warm and detailed music flowed from his car to a level I had never heard before.These amps turned out to be strongly biased into classA.Yes they gave off oodles of heat and ran your battery dry in minutes but they went on to win reference awards in Germany France Sweden and the USA.Blaaaaa Blaaaaa I had fallen victim to the sheep syndrome:o
    So please read the encrypted message in this post!!!:cool:
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Why is anyone even paying attention to him, his intension is more than obvious.
    Just what is my intention genius??
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Why is anyone even paying attention to him, his intension is more than obvious.
    Read my last post maybe you can learn something baaaaa baaaaa;)
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    seafire wrote: »
    Lol you say I contradict myself but read your own post back..PS AUdio's better than rs 10 gauge but not really any better than the tara labs rsc prime bi wires;)read all my posts I said you get to a level where the diff is so small that it becomes a waste of time..exactly what you said.Why do I want to spend 1000$ on cable when I can come pretty close and in some cases kick butt with a cheaper alternative.I live outside the USA prime cable like that is hard to find second hand and never at a quarter of the price!;)

    You just made everyones point there...thanks. The point is...that yes, you might be able to come close with cheaper alternatives, but some people are looking for that extra edge. Close isn't good enough for everyone. How is it a waste of time if there is an improvement?

    Also, you don't have to spend 1000 dollars to get good cables. Most people that experiment with cabling buy used cables...you don't have to spend anywhere near 1000 dollars to get a quality cable. You keep saying that...and people keep telling you otherwise, yet you keep referring to it as a valid point. It's not. Sure, you can easily spend upwards of 1000 dollars on cables...if you buy new. Those same 1000 dollar cables go for around 300 dollars used generally. This is how most people buy them.
    Read my last post maybe you can learn something baaaaa baaaaa

    You really need to stop saying "baaa baaa". It's really getting annoying. How does making your own decision based on your own personal experiences make you a sheep? It doesn't.
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
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    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    Keiko wrote: »
    No, he's an assehole from cyberspace. :rolleyes:
    Hi KAKO how are you again thank you for the intelligent contributions:D:D:D
    RAFLOL
    All I can say is shame you must be very frustrated by only being able to reply with insults it's like a baby's first words.Don't worry your forgiven;)
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited March 2009
    Since the moderator will not end this thread the members should end it NOW.
    Enough is enough and everyone member should ignore the troll/trolls. We are lowering ourselves to the other forums and that is not acceptable.
    Thats all I have to say
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    comfortablycurt wrote: »
    You just made everyones point there...thanks. The point is...that yes, you might be able to come close with cheaper alternatives, but some people are looking for that extra edge. Close isn't good enough for everyone. How is it a waste of time if there is an improvement?

    Also, you don't have to spend 1000 dollars to get good cables. Most people that experiment with cabling buy used cables...you don't have to spend anywhere near 1000 dollars to get a quality cable. You keep saying that...and people keep telling you otherwise, yet you keep referring to it as a valid point. It's not. Sure, you can easily spend upwards of 1000 dollars on cables...if you buy new. Those some 1000 dollar cables go for around 300 dollars used generally. This is how most people buy them.


    You really need to stop saying "baaa baaa". It's really getting annoying. How does making your own decision based on your own personal experiences make you a sheep? It doesn't.
    Ok good point.Please remember what I said earlier...we dont all live in he USA and that type of cable at those prices...nearly impossible.Remember that some folks that buy this cable can't here past 15k or even less.Yes sure there are some that hear it all but they are defiantly the minority
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited March 2009
    Embarrassing
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  • ND13
    ND13 Posts: 7,601
    edited March 2009
    Ok good point.Please remember what I said earlier...we dont all live in he USA and that type of cable at those prices...nearly impossible.Remember that some folks that buy this cable can't here past 15k or even less.Yes sure there are some that hear it all but they are defiantly the minority

    Hell, I can hear a dog whistle :D and that annoying high pitched sound that CRT tvs emit. But I had to have perfect hearing for my Air Force job. You're on the damn internet, ever heard of Ebay or Audiogon or even our CP Flea Market?
    "SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
    CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE"
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited March 2009
    Keiko wrote: »
    Humorous :D

    Don't you think it is? I do and I am a new guy
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    SO be a little more specific.Who and what is ?
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