Spearker cables..fact or fiction?
Comments
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Well boys I am waiting for someone to challenge my statements on a technical / scientific level any takers????
No need to be confrontational. There are some of us here who have spent some time quantitatively evaluating cable performance and who have tried to correlate quantitative performance with subjective listening perceptions.
Here is a link to one of my speaker cable evaluations:Review Of Audioquest Volcano Speaker Cable. If you scroll down to the conclusion section of that review, you will see I did a comparison of the AQ Volcanoes to three other cables and attached a summary in a PDF file.
I would be interested in reading the results of some of your comparative studies listing the specific cables evaluated.Ok interesting read but we found virtually no distortion on the 3 m lengths we tested with a occilo .I think this becomes prominent on long cable lengths sorry edit: but then again we did not find any on most short lengths of cable only with extremely thin cable and hi volume output sorry edit again I tend to agree with the last part of your statement...wow eventually some good clean debate
:):)
With your oscilloscope measurements, did you evaluate the cable's performance in both the time and frequency domains, or just the time domain?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I hear crickets chirping. . . hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Well boys I am waiting for someone to challenge my statements on a technical / scientific level any takers????
Well, I am not interested in "challenging" your statements. However, I do enjoy discussing other technical perspectives.Ok so I run water through a quarter inch pipe in my cd player I then interconnect it with a half inch pipe to my amp which internally uses a quarter inch pipe then out to my speakers with a 3 quarter inch pipe or many quarter inch pipes and then back to my passive crossover track quarter inch pipe to my speakers one eights pipe WHATEVERThats why cat 5 e sounds so good.Because it emulates the the pcb tracks with a simple solid copper wire..so to offset resistance we may use a couple of strands more which unfortunately induces some capacitance over distance.Ideally we do not want to change the medium that the signal travels through in terms of resistance etc this will cause phase shift with highs and lows..ideally we want to extend the pc board all the way to the speaker... not a **** micron thick copper track changing into a multistrand pure silver speaker wire as wide as the missisipi.
A well designed speaker cable does considerably more than provide a larger, lower resistance signal path from amplifier to loudspeaker.
In order to better understand the challenges that a signal faces on its way to a loudspeaker, I think it is a good idea to consider the noise scenarios that impinge upon signal integrity. Everything that the audio signal travels through adds some noise, whether is is PCB traces, active or passive components, wire, etc. In addition to the noise that is in the signal path, there is also environmental noise to contend with (rf, emf, etc.). Environmental noise can have a serious detrimental effect on signal integrity.
The noise scenario inside a properly designed audio component will be quite different from the noise scenarios inside a speaker cabinet and in a listening room. For example, an audio equipment designer has many tools at his/her disposal to minimize noise inside the equipment. Of course, once the signal exits the equipment and is "out in the wild" (the listening room), the same noise reduction measures that worked well inside the equipment's shielded metal box may not work as well external to the box. Speaker cabinets, and speaker crossover networks, also provide some shielding against environmental noise. We must also consider that the travel distances from amplifier to speaker may be orders of magnitude greater than the travel distances inside the amps, source components, and loudspeakers.
Assuming we have acquired thoughtfully designed audio reproduction equipment and thoughtfully designed loudspeakers. It seems to me that the task then runs to selecting thoughtfully designed cables that will preserve signal integrity commensurate with the resolution capabilities of the electronics and loudspeakers.
In order to preserve signal integrity from the power amplifier outputs to the speaker inputs, we must contend with:
1. Significantly increased environmental noise.
2. Significantly increased path resistance.
3. Significantly increased path noise.
4. Significantly increased signal power levels.
Considering the above, the concept of "extending the PCB board all the way to the speaker" seems impractical.
Perhaps I am missing something. Please expound further.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Hi first of all thank you for not insulting me:DI have no problem listening to other peoples reasoning as a matter of fact I like it.Yes it impractical to extend the pcb board all the way to the speaker.This is just my theory.Like you said the signal has many phases to go through being subjected to noise interference.DarqueKnight wrote: »Well, I am not interested in "challenging" your statements. However, I do enjoy discussing other technical perspectives.
A well designed speaker cable does considerably more than provide a larger, lower resistance signal path from amplifier to loudspeaker.
In order to better understand the challenges that a signal faces on its way to a loudspeaker, I think it is a good idea to consider the noise scenarios that impinge upon signal integrity. Everything that the audio signal travels through adds some noise, whether is is PCB traces, active or passive components, wire, etc. In addition to the noise that is in the signal path, there is also environmental noise to contend with (rf, emf, etc.). Environmental noise can have a serious detrimental effect on signal integrity.
The noise scenario inside a properly designed audio component will be quite different from the noise scenarios inside a speaker cabinet and in a listening room. For example, an audio equipment designer has many tools at his/her disposal to minimize noise inside the equipment. Of course, once the signal exits the equipment and is "out in the wild" (the listening room), the same noise reduction measures that worked well inside the equipment's shielded metal box may not work as well external to the box. Speaker cabinets, and speaker crossover networks, also provide some shielding against environmental noise. We must also consider that the travel distances from amplifier to speaker may be orders of magnitude greater than the travel distances inside the amps, source components, and loudspeakers.
Assuming we have acquired thoughtfully designed audio reproduction equipment and thoughtfully designed loudspeakers. It seems to me that the task then runs to selecting thoughtfully designed cables that will preserve signal integrity commensurate with the resolution capabilities of the electronics and loudspeakers.
In order to preserve signal integrity from the power amplifier outputs to the speaker inputs, we must contend with:
1. Significantly increased environmental noise.
2. Significantly increased path resistance.
3. Significantly increased path noise.
4. Significantly increased signal power levels.
Considering the above, the concept of "extending the PCB board all the way to the speaker" seems impractical.
Perhaps I am missing something. Please expound further.
I speak under correction but as far as I understand it, once the signal has left the amp we are talking about significant signal increases in a AC format.Because the signal is so strong and in ac format it actually has very good noise rejection properties and although we do not want any noise added the minute noise level added in the speaker cable itself can hardly be measured.Try a simple experiment by laying your speaker cables over a ac power cord and playing some music ..the db difference (noise floor ) is so great that you will not hear it.Many years back I was actively involved in car audio installs where noise is a big problem.Anything dc (interconnects passive active x overs etc)would be subject to noise intrusion like ground loop hum and altenator whine (ac).We found that speaker wire could be run next to car power cords with no interference although one would still not recommend this.So to sum up my theory is as follows
On interconnects I use shielded cable with solid core signal wire why?- because I am trying to simulate the flow of the electrons through the pcb boards. With speaker cables the same ,I try closely to simulate the signal flow from amp to speakers.Again my theory is to try and not disturb the signal flow because every time it changes medium we will introduce impurities and the signal will lose energy because of changes in the medium it flows through(capacitance inductance resistance) all play a role here.I think the biggest mistake I made in forming this storm was using the word cat 45.I should rather have said that I prefer SOLID CORE CABLE TO THIN MULTI STRAND:o So forget about the fact that it's cat cable I like solid core!.:D The cat cable is already wound in a twisted format so I like using these in multiple strand formats ie I would use 26 pieces of solid core wound into a multi strand compared to normal multi strand that has thousands of wires microns thick.This type of wire loves to oxidize so what sounds good today may not sound like that in 6 months.To finish off I would like to say that I never said wire makes no difference.However it can make you chase your tail because differences are so subtle.I have yet to find a wire that makes all types of rig sound the same.A subtle enhancement of the highs with this rig will give more bass on another rig so we have to keep on playing with the wire as per rig.I choose to rather have a constant that sound 90% on all rigs and get on with the greater differences of the rig itself
thank you for listening
Seafire:D -
Sorry I forgot to add something.Ever wondered why earphones sound so revealing and perfect?Besides the obvious -near field surrounding your ear and a small radiating surface the following.The signal format comes off the pcb board in millivolts with very little change in the media ie. thickness of cable distance etc.Straight off the source into your ear format and media unchanged:D
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Sorry I forgot to add something.Ever wondered why earphones sound so revealing and perfect?Besides the obvious -near field surrounding your ear and a small radiating surface the following.The signal format comes off the pcb board in millivolts with very little change in the media ie. thickness of cable distance etc.Straight off the source into your ear format and media unchanged:D
I refuse to have a battle of wits with those who are unarmed... when you find a few good brain cells let me know...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
nooshinjohn wrote: »I refuse to have a battle of wits with those who are unarmed... when you find a few good brain cells let me know...
Whatever!!
Wow what an input I think your response is directly applicable to yourself.Anything new you will be buying soon??? only to cancel it again:rolleyes:
Give yourself a break you deserve it:cool: -
You seemed, at one time, to be passionately interested in engaging in a technical discussion:Well boys I am waiting for someone to challenge my statements on a technical / scientific level any takers????
Is there some reason why you do not wish to answer the following questions?DarqueKnight wrote: »
I would be interested in reading the results of some of your comparative studies listing the specific cables evaluated.
With your oscilloscope measurements, did you evaluate the cable's performance in both the time and frequency domains, or just the time domain?
I must admit to a measure of disappointment in your reluctance to further discuss the technical merits of the applications of computer cables in audio applications. I was looking forward to learning from your experiences.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Ever wondered why earphones sound so revealing and perfect?
No, I have not. I thought you wanted to discuss speaker cables, and specifically Cat45 speaker cables. I do not mind discussing earphones, but I would prefer to stick to one topic at a time. I hope you will be able to extend me this courtesy.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I guess you have never had a run of bad luck in your life, except whe the doctor dropped you on your head when u were born. you arent selling anyone here that your theory has any value whatsoever so move on already. I think those that have invested big money in cables have spent their money wisely because to them it is a tremendous improvement in sound. to me, I would rather spend money in other areas, so choose not to go big bucks on cables. I paid 150 bucks for my main speaker wires and about 20 bucks a pair for my rca cables... they sound fine to me, but that is why people have choices. Stop trying to be the cable guru, because to most you are just full of ****, and to those of us that dont want to spend a bunch on cables you are also full of ****...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
Lets go I am ready:DDarqueKnight wrote: »You seemed, at one time, to be passionately interested in engaging in a technical discussion:
Is there some reason why you do not wish to answer the following questions:
I must admit to a measure of disappointment in your reluctance to further discuss the technical merits of the applications of computer cables in audio applications. I was looking to learn from your experiences.
Have to get hold of my friend today (electronic engineer) who's scope we used.I stand corrected but I think it was both we measured -
Lets go lets go:D:D:D
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Try a simple experiment by laying your speaker cables over a ac power cord and playing some music ..the db difference (noise floor ) is so great that you will not hear it.
I do not need to try this. In my two channel system, the speaker cables are running along side various power cables behind the equipment cabinet. However, my speaker and power cables are so well shielded that my signal to noise ratio was not adversely affected. I documented this with Fast Fourier Transform measurements with an oscilloscope.
Furthermore, I could hear that the noise floor was lowered with the cables I used because the sound level became apparently and measurably louder.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
OK so we can move the noise equation out right now.DarqueKnight wrote: »I do not need to try this. In my two channel system, the speaker cables are running along side various power cables behind the equipment cabinet. However, my speaker and power cables are so well shielded that my signal to noise ratio was not adversely affected. I documented this with Fast Fourier Transform measurements with an oscilloscope.
Furthermore, I could hear that the noise floor was lowered with the cables I used because the sound level became apparently and measurably louder.
Yes I believe you now the crunch question...what are you comparing this too..what did you have before??
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Of course nothing can come out of this thread as long as the so called beleivers keep the poor attitude they had all along. As long as your new thread stays within the beleivers guidelines, you'll get good results but don't expect the pros and cons. You have to realize people sell that stuff here and can not afford an un-biased thread wich would jeopardize their own turf. This discussion could have been fruitfull, if you look back seriously at the thread, you will find who where actually highjacking/trolling this thread!mdaudioguy wrote: »+1
I, for one, still have several questions, particularly about IC's, but I think I'll hold off and start a new thread later. I don't feel that anything constructive will occur in this thread again. It was fun for a while...:o
P.S. My new thread will not start out so presumptive and antagonistic AND will (hopefully) have all words - in the title at least - spelled correctly.
NOTE: The name calling started with the beleivers and never stopped since! NEVER any of those bashers have brought anything intelligent to this discussion! What are they so afraid of?DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Lets go I am ready:D
Have to get hold of my friend today (electronic engineer) who's scope we used.
Oh....OK. Get back when you can.I think it was both we measured
You must realize that some signal distortions will not be easily apparent in time domain analysis, which is why frequency domain analysis is so important...particularly if the noise tends toward whiteness (equal amounts of energy at each frequency).Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
One question have you tried any type of solid core wiring yet??
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If you would read, you would know. Damn, why do you have to be such an ****?OK so we can move the noise equation out right now.
Yes I believe you now the crunch question...what are you comparing this too..what did you have before??
Do you know who you are going up against and how many posts he has lost in the depths of this forum with PROOF that you are full of ****?
Keep it up, you'll find out about it and with it you will lose any and all credibility. As if you and others on this thread had any to begin with. :rolleyes: For your own sake, just STFU. Your mother would approve.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
For what it's worth we did RTA sweeps with pink and white noise too
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Yawn whatever I am here to learn as well. Life is about give and take not constant insults and threats.If he proves me wrong I will learn from it and be the first to admit it ..big whoopeeIf you would read, you would know. Damn, why do you have to be such an ****?
Do you know who you are going up against and how many posts he has with PROOF that you are full of ****?
Keep it up, you'll find out and with it any and all credibility. As if you and others on this thread had any to begin with. :rolleyes: For your own sake, just STFU. Your mother would approve. -
OK so we can move the noise equation out right now.
Yes I believe you now the crunch question...what are you comparing this too..what did you have before??
I certainly don't mind answering your question, but I believe I asked you first. Furthermore, I provided a link to one of my prior speaker cable reviews that should have provided some insight into what I had before.
Can we address this before we go on to something else?:DarqueKnight wrote: »I would be interested in reading the results of some of your comparative studies listing the specific cables evaluated.
I prefer to discuss things in a linear fashion. Darting about from topic to topic confuses me.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Empirical evidence. Intelligent enough? Now you can go Google it and come back with your lame **** response.TECHNOKID wrote:.....NEVER any of those bashers have brought anything intelligent to this discussion!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Many should learn from this post! Civilized and straigth to the point! Now, reporting someone that has a different opinion than yours... I'd more likely see reporting people who trolls by posting insults and poor comments (which I did earlier in the thread and didn't lead anywhere!).Guys ... you are talking about speaker wire right? My god.
If you wanna use cat 5 for speaker wire, go right ahead. If you feel cheaper wire is better then higher end wire, then use it. If you don't agree with what others say, try it out for yourself and form your own opinion. What's so damn hard about it?
If you feel this guy is making a stink of the forum, report him. Don't add fuel to the fire.
So I'll just say this, wire makes a difference. It has to have the correct guage and length to carry the proper signal from the amp to the speaker without losing or picking anything up on the way. I don't care who makes the wire, I don't care what it looks like, I don't care what it is made out of, I don't care what one person says or another, all I care about is hearing what was send out. That's all . Once you can do this, there is nothing you can do to that wire to make it any better.
There is some truth to this forum on both sides but both sides are going further then it need to be.
While all you guys are in here arguing who has the best wire for the job, I'll be listening to my Kimber Kables and enjoying my system.
Good luck with the rest of this.
DanDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
I apologize DarqueKnight, back to the topic at hand.......~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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One question have you tried any type of solid core wiring yet??
Wow. You really aren't going to answer any of my questions are you?
To answer your question, yes I have.
If you insist on consistently changing the subject, I must assume that you do not wish to engage in technical discourse and that your purpose here is just to argue...I which case, I will have no further interest in communicating with you.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
No prob on my way to work (8am here) but will chat latter.Would you like a list of cables I have reviewed by ear or tested scientifically or bothDarqueKnight wrote: »I certainly don't mind answering your question, but I believe I asked you first. Furthermore, I provided a link to one of my prior speaker cable reviews that should have provided some insight into what I had before.
Can we address this before we go on to something else?:
I prefer to discuss things in a linear fashion. Darting about from topic to topic confuses me.
Gee seems like I have my work cut out:eek:
Where can I see your reviews? and I still dont have an answer whether you have tested any solid core cable combos yet?? -
Hello not so fast...so what is it you are asking there seems to be lag see my last postDarqueKnight wrote: »Wow. You really aren't going to answer any of my questions are you?
To answer your question, yes I have.
If you insist on consistently changing the subject, I must assume that you do not wish to engage in technical discourse and that your purpose here is just to argue...I which case, I will have no further interest in communicating with you. -
Ok so where are you? no reply.In the meantime I read your review which oddly features cables made up of SOLID CORE MULTI STRAND = 9 gauge.Read my post above..further this review views your opinion and no scientific results.Just like I have my opinion..any scientific results pages you can refer me too??I am really interested:D
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No prob on my way to work (8am here) but will chat latter.
Enjoy your work day.Would you like a list of cables I have reviewed by ear or tested scientifically or both
Both.I still dont have an answer whether you have tested any solid core cable combos yet??
Why are you on so much about solid core cable just now? First, Cat45 was the greatist thing in the world and now solid core is the cat's meow. I told you in post #725, that, yes, I had tried solid core cable. My current interconnects and speaker cables are solid core designs.Where can I see your reviews?
If you go back to post #701, you will see that I conveniently provided a link to one of my speaker cable reviews, some of which were your newly beloved solid core.
Here are some links to a few of my other studies:
Studies On Residential Power Line Noise - Part 1
Studies On Residential Power Line Noise - Part 2
Studies On Residential Power Line Noise - Part 4- PS Audio Premier SC Power CordProud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Ok so where are you? no reply.In the meantime I read your review which oddly features cables made up of SOLID CORE MULTI STRAND = 9 gauge.Read my post above..further this review views your opinion and no scientific results.Just like I have my opinion..any scientific results pages you can refer me too??I am really interested:D
Sorry, didn't realize you were sitting in front of the computer waiting on me to respond. You said you were going to work so I took you at your word.
I trust the links provided at the bottom of my last post meet your approval?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
This discussion has been closed.