Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

F1nut

This post is an example and maybe an answer to GG's post about why many older members don't visit here anymore.

Yes sir, the one below is a perfect example.

seafire wrote: »

Ok been around this hobby for 25 years.Most of this speaker cable -interconect stuff is ****!! Yes if you use grandpa's twisted pair flex cable made for light bulbs you will hear a difference but if you buy good quality 99% oxy free pure copper cable 12 gauge and up its gonna sound good! Will its sound different with single strand compared to multi strand..yes but different is not always better so maybe the answer is that you can tweak some of your systems short falls with different sounding cable..tired of this ****! Same goes for inter connects spent thousands in years gone buy and your ear tricks you make subtle changes sound different = better because thats what you want to hear after forking 200usd for inter connects.YOU GUYS HAVE SOME SERIOUS TWEAKING TO DO BECAUSE THIS MEANS THAT SIGNAL TRAVELING FROM YOUR CD ON **** PCB TRACK THEN GOES THROUGH YOUR 250USD+ INTERCONNECT ONLY TO RESUME ITS SIGNAL ON ANOTHER CHINESE **** PCB TRACK UNTIL THE SPEAKER OUTS HAHAHA THEN WHEN IT REACHES YOUR SPEAKER AFTER TRAVELING THROUGH YOUR 1000USD + SPEAKER CABLE IT RUNS THROUGH YOUR KOREAN PASSIVE CROSSOVER WITH MEASLY TRACKS TO YOUR SPEAKERS WITH YOUR SPEAKER MANUFACTURERS **** CABLE TO THE SPEAKER HAHAHA GIVE YOURSELVES A BREAK GUYS FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!!

bikezappa

F1nut wrote: »

Yes sir, the one below is a perfect example.

Just ignore him F1nut.

inspiredsports

bikezappa wrote: »

This post is an example and maybe an answer to GG's post about why many older members don't visit here anymore.

I just don't get why people need to be disrespectful to other members. Because people don't agree doesn't mean they can ridicule, call them names or make fun of them.

Sad.

Thank God the "older members" you mention really are still here.

I've found they willingly mentor and contribute their wisdom to the mix when it's requested in a genuine and respectful thread. They seem to have an uncanny ability to recognize a (new or old) member's legitimate need for help, versus a member's need to "stir the pot".

Outside of this group and out in the world in general, I've seen many a sharp, talented, opinionated people fail because they were unwilling to accept mentoring of any sort. Sadly, that seems to be the case in many Internet forum threads.

Based almost solely upon knowledge I've drawn from this group, I've been able to make up for neglecting my audio hobby for 20+ years in less than 4 months. The end result . . . . amazing sound. I attribute a large percentage of the improvement to finding the right cables and IC's.

I'm so thankful that I did not keep to the advice of those who truly believe that cables and wires don't matter.

dkg999

I wonder what happens when they realize this argument can't be solved via scientific measurement, technology, or even tea leaves? I would put more faith into DK's reviews and analysis than anything I would find in the audio magazines, and he has simply outclassed the visitors in this game. Great job DK, you are da'man!

polkapolka

Wow, I started reading this thread because I am very new, and a budding audiophile. I have a very simple, humble set up. I was hoping to glean some good information, and hear some thoughtful, constructive comments. I was wrong. As entertaining as this thread has been, I am seriously upset that so many "adults" with the means to buy some of these great toys, are simply juvenile in their comments. I am no better than the next guy, and am not lecturing anyone. I am simply making an observation, and hope that I don't get hammered for threadjacking or anything like that. I am simply trying to learn something, and this thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I will be quite hesitant to return here, I think.
I am simply trying to give some people that have been here a while, the point of view of a n00b who is brand new to this forum, and looking for some guidance and advice, while at the same time not fear getting called an idiot or worse.
Please be kind, I really like this hobby, and hope that the decent people making helpful comments would continue to raise the bar here.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Matt

steveinaz

One way to destroy your credibility right out of the gate is to say that "_____ sucks." Fill in the blank with whatever product, idea, etc you want. To say something like that shows that you immediately have an agenda, and a closed mind. I don't waste my time with these types as they don't want to learn anything--they just want to hear themselves talk.

steveinaz

polkapolka wrote: »

I am simply trying to learn something, and this thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I will be quite hesitant to return here, I think.

Matt

Matt
Don't be discouraged. In hobbies of any kind, there can be alot of passion in peoples beliefs--passion sometimes results in heated argument. Nature of the beast. There are many extremely intelligent people here with loads of experience, you just need to learn how to filter the information in a constructive way.

Norm Apter

steveinaz wrote: »

Matt
Don't be discouraged. In hobbies of any kind, there can be alot of passion in peoples beliefs--passion sometimes results in heated argument. Nature of the beast. There are many extremely intelligent people here with loads of experience, you just need to learn how to filter the information in a constructive way.

+1

I am anything but the exception of someone who came here about a year with zero understanding of things audio but have benefited (and continue to benefit) from a wealth of information -- information that simply does not come forth when you go to high end audio shops with individuals who have...lets say...ulterior motives in mind (at least for new customers) when dealing with you.

Yes, every once in a while a thread like this morphs into an uncontrollable monster. As others (including SteveinAZ above)have observed, this is part of the nature of the beast. To be sure, you have to pick and choose here at CP (and wade through some b.s.) but if you give it some time and patience you will undoubtedly benefit immensely from the collective wisdom that avails itself here. Trust me -- there's no way I would be where I am today (just 12 months later) without CP and I am sure many others can attest similarly.

DarqueKnight

Then:

seafire wrote: »

Ok been around this hobby for 25 years.Most of this speaker cable -interconect stuff is ****!!

seafire wrote: »

Well boys I am waiting for someone to challenge my statements on a technical / scientific level any takers????

Now:

seafire wrote: »

If I gave you two of my Cat 5 cable recipes would you be prepared to do the valuation for us pitching it against some top end and mid level product?

Thank you for the offer, but I will politely decline. Surely someone with 25 years experience in this hobby and who has a friend who happens to be an electronics engineer with an oscilloscope can conduct a study of this type. I look forward to reading your results. The only recommendation I would offer is that you properly document your findings. Not being able to substantiate your claims with documentation calls into question your credibility.

Also, when you were asked some very reasonable and very specific questions, you tried to ignore the questions and turned around and began quizzing me. When I pressed you for answers, you responded this way:

seafire wrote: »

Have to get hold of my friend today (electronic engineer) who's scope we used.

seafire wrote: »

I think it was both we measured

seafire wrote: »

I phoned my friend (electronic engineer)who owns the scope.

seafire wrote: »

If my friends memory serves him correct there were differences of up to 8db.

seafire wrote: »

I had to make a second call to my friend at the audio shop to find out what we had listened to in the last years.

seafire wrote: »

These tests were run in 2006 so we are both a bit vague.

For someone to come in with guns blazing and then, when asked for substantiation, have to turn right around and depend on a friend's "vague" memory and knowledge looks rather weak. In the future, when you decide to share the benefits of your wisdom, I hope you will be prepared to stand on your own knowledge and documentation.

seafire wrote: »

I often review new stuff and like sharing my opinions and findings but preferably with people that have the ability to engage in conversation and debate with reason;)

I don't think it's appropriate, or wise, to come in demanding a technical debate and not be prepared to adequately engage in it. This is the equivalent of walking into a saloon and demanding a gunfight, knowing all the while your guns are loaded with blanks. Interestingly, you had the unmitigated gall to say this of someone else:

seafire wrote: »

See what I mean you come out firing your guns without checking your facts because yo have a peanut brain.

Now, on to other things....

seafire wrote: »

I read your review which oddly features cables made up of SOLID CORE MULTI STRAND = 9 gauge.

What is odd about this? Solid core multi conductor is still SOLID CORE. This is my understanding of the difference between solid core and stranded wire:

Solid Core Wire - A single conductor encapsulated in insulation.

Stranded Wire - Multiple, non-insulated wire strands encapsulated in a shared insulation.

If I take two or more insulated solid core wires and then twist them together to minimize field interaction and increase the effective wire gauge, are you saying that this would cease to be a solid core wire configuration and would then become a stranded wire configuration? I do not think this is correct. A bundle of insulated solid core wires with the appropriate winding geometry is still solid core and has the electrical characteristics of a single solid core wire of the same effective gauge. This is one of the main advantages of the Litz and Hyper-Litz solid core speaker cable configurations.

I do not mean to be disparaging, but many of your comments display a gaping lack of fundamental electronics knowledge. Your concept of "extending the PCB all the way to the speaker" was pure comedy and made no sense whatsoever. I would ask that you think things through a little bit more in the future.

Good luck with everything.:)

steveinaz

hehe...

DarqueKnight

polkapolka wrote: »

I am simply trying to learn something, and this thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I will be quite hesitant to return here, I think.

Please be kind, I really like this hobby, and hope that the decent people making helpful comments would continue to raise the bar here.

Matt,

Just as you can't judge a person by one small character flaw or a city by one bad neighborhood, you can't judge a forum by one small (or large) thread, no matter how obnoxious it may be. If you stick around, you'll find that this is one of the friendliest, most informative audio forums available.

No one, with any sense, is going to belittle you for asking an honest, straightforward question.

An internet forum is like any public gathering place. After you've been around for a while you'll become quite adept at filtering the good from the bad. The only folks who have a problem here are the one's who ignore what Confucious said millinia ago:

"He who acts like **** should be prepared to have **** handed back to him."

Welcome.

bikezappa

polkapolka wrote: »

Wow, I started reading this thread because I am very new, and a budding audiophile. I have a very simple, humble set up. I was hoping to glean some good information, and hear some thoughtful, constructive comments. I was wrong. As entertaining as this thread has been, I am seriously upset that so many "adults" with the means to buy some of these great toys, are simply juvenile in their comments. I am no better than the next guy, and am not lecturing anyone. I am simply making an observation, and hope that I don't get hammered for threadjacking or anything like that. I am simply trying to learn something, and this thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I will be quite hesitant to return here, I think.
I am simply trying to give some people that have been here a while, the point of view of a n00b who is brand new to this forum, and looking for some guidance and advice, while at the same time not fear getting called an idiot or worse.
Please be kind, I really like this hobby, and hope that the decent people making helpful comments would continue to raise the bar here.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Matt

Matt you have explained the situation and yourself well. I couldn't have said it better.
There are many smart and decent people here.
There are also many with a good sense of humor.
There are some that have a twisted sense of humor however.

Peter

ND13

bikezappa wrote: »

Matt you have explained the situation and yourself well. I couldn't have said it better.
There are many smart and decent people here.
There are also many with a good sense of humor.
There are some that have a twisted sense of humor however.

Peter

Thank God for them.

seafire

Ok DK

Many quotes to respond too give me a minute to read it properly and I will respond

DarqueKnight

Say whatever you like. You are welcome to the "last word". I am done with this "discussion". I have other, more interesting things to do today.:)

F1nut

polkapolka wrote: »

I was hoping to glean some good information, and hear some thoughtful, constructive comments. I was wrong.

Matt, you will find plenty of useful info here at Club Polk. In fact, I see that you found some in other threads. Passing judgement on the forum based on this one alone really isn't fair to you or us.

BjornB17

BOSE - The Most Respected Name In Sound (TM)

dkg999

hehe x2

bikezappa

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Say whatever you like. You are welcome to the "last word". I am done with this "discussion". I have other, more interesting things to do today.:)

me too.

seafire

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Then:





Now:



Thank you for the offer, but I will politely decline. Surely someone with 25 years experience in this hobby and who has a friend who happens to be an electronics engineer with an oscilloscope can conduct a study of this type. I look forward to reading your results. The only recommendation I would offer is that you properly document your findings. Not being able to substantiate your claims with documentation calls into question your credibility.

Also, when you were asked some very reasonable and very specific questions, you tried to ignore the questions and turned around and began quizzing me. When I pressed you for answers, you responded this way:













For someone to come in with guns blazing and then, when asked for substantiation, have to turn right around and depend on a friend's "vague" memory and knowledge looks rather weak. In the future, when you decide to share the benefits of your wisdom, I hope you will be prepared to stand on your own knowledge and documentation.



I don't think it's appropriate, or wise, to come in demanding a technical debate and not be prepared to adequately engage in it. This is the equivalent of walking into a saloon and demanding a gunfight, knowing all the while your guns are loaded with blanks. Interestingly, you had the unmitigated gall to say this of someone else:



Now, on to other things....



What is odd about this? Solid core multi conductor is still SOLID CORE. This is my understanding of the difference between solid core and stranded wire:

Solid Core Wire - A single conductor encapsulated in insulation.

Stranded Wire - Multiple, non-insulated wire strands encapsulated in a shared insulation.

If I take two or more insulated solid core wires and then twist them together to minimize field interaction and increase the effective wire gauge, are you saying that this would cease to be a solid core wire configuration and would then become a stranded wire configuration? I do not think this is correct. A bundle of insulated solid core wires with the appropriate winding geometry is still solid core and has the electrical characteristics of a single solid core wire of the same effective gauge. This is one of the main advantages of the Litz and Hyper-Litz solid core speaker cable configurations.

I do not mean to be disparaging, but many of your comments display a gaping lack of fundamental electronics knowledge. Your concept of "extending the PCB all the way to the speaker" was pure comedy and made no sense whatsoever. I would ask that you think things through a little bit more in the future.

Good luck with everything.:)

Ok first of all my use of foul language was only because of pure frustration as one after the other had at that stage started calling me names etc.
take note that I said MOST not all;)
please show me where I avoided your questions;)
I told you straight out that I do not own the scope and rather than thumb suck I phoned him.These tests were done for our own private information so why in the world would I keep this in SAE PAPER format..I can not see into the future.
Its odd because my theory revolves around solid core not multi strand ever seen a pcb with multi strand tracks?
PCB all the way to the speaker is a theory.With your acclaimed electronic knowledge would you be kind enough to explain to me what happens to electric signal when it moves through different mediums? I know the answer do you? If so why would you not understand the theory behind the"pcb all the way to the speaker theory?.According to my friend(the electronic engineer) there is an equation to support this.
In light of the above where do I lack understanding of fundamental electronics?
Audio is my hobby not my profession so I would not even bother to do all the trouble again to prove something of which I have already made my own conclusions of.
I find it suspicious that you decline my proposal when your scientific approach seems to be a rigorous quest for the truth .
I speak under correction but it seems that you are insinuating certain things with regards to myself:rolleyes:

seafire

steveinaz wrote: »

hehe...

Wow now that's what I call contribution at it's best:rolleyes:

ND13

More cowbell please!!!

seafire

If I scroll back on this thread one thing stands out baaaa baaaaa a flock of sheep.Very few people thinking for themselves.And I guess there is a price to pay for not being one of the flock...I will rather take the heat any day of the week than be part of the flock baaa baaa

cnh

seafire wrote: »

Ok first of all my use of foul language was only because of pure frustration as one after the other had at that stage started calling me names etc.
take note that I said MOST not all;)
please show me where I avoided your questions;)
I told you straight out that I do not own the scope and rather than thumb suck I phoned him.These tests were done for our own private information so why in the world would I keep this in SAE PAPER format..I can not see into the future.
Its odd because my theory revolves around solid core not multi strand ever seen a pcb with multi strand tracks?
PCB all the way to the speaker is a theory.With your acclaimed electronic knowledge would you be kind enough to explain to me what happens to electric signal when it moves through different mediums? I know the answer do you? If so why would you not understand the theory behind the"pcb all the way to the speaker theory?.According to my friend(the electronic engineer) there is an equation to support this.
In light of the above where do I lack understanding of fundamental electronics?
Audio is my hobby not my profession so I would not even bother to do all the trouble again to prove something of which I have already made my own conclusions of.
I find it suspicious that you decline my proposal when your scientific approach seems to be a rigorous quest for the truth .
I speak under correction but it seems that you are insinuating certain things with regards to myself:rolleyes:

Well I'm glad to see you've actually read my post above where I specify the requirements for both sides. The Subjective argument...and the Objecive one.

I think I covered both sides. So now I'm just going to sit back here and look on with amusement--because I've seen this debate too many times...and by CP standards I'm just a newb. So what does that say about this discussion?

In fact, I don't think I can read these posts without music and my less or more than cat5 cabling!

cnh

seafire

Well I feel pretty confused myself.When DK pitched I actually thought this could lead to something interesting.Maybe he feels that this bores him as he has already tested what he wanted to and came to his own conclusions.

If you are interested or anybody else for that matter I can give you some interesting designs with cat 5.Easy to make and cheap and then all can draw their own conclusions.So whoever is interested let me know ..pm or email if you like:D

seafire

cnh wrote: »

Well I'm glad to see you've actually read my post above where I specify the requirements for both sides. The Subjective argument...and the Objecive one.

I think I covered both sides. So now I'm just going to sit back here and look on with amusement--because I've seen this debate too many times...and by CP standards I'm just a newb. So what does that say about this discussion?

In fact, I don't think I can read these posts without music and my less or more than cat5 cabling!

cnh

What cable do you use?

heiney9

seafire wrote: »

he has already tested what he wanted to and came to his own conclusions.

Boy if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

H9

seafire

heiney9 wrote: »

Boy if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

H9

Arrrgh what mentality primary school?? kindergarten? Who is calling what black I simply stated what I presume and so what if he doesnt want to participate.I can respect that...now back to your flock baaaaaa baaaaaa:mad:

madmax

ND13 wrote: »

More cowbell please!!!

Absolutely my favorite instrument!
madmax

ND13

madmax wrote: »

Absolutely my favorite instrument!
madmax

Just can't get through all the noise in this thread.

Baaa