Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

TECHNOKID

Ah! I knew I seen this before, took me a while to dig this through old discussions. I wouldn't have the patience to do such nor the will as I didn't think it be worthwhile. However, the article is very interesting.

http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

F1nut

What some of you don't seem to be grasping here is that the tech stuff/specs cannot tell you how a cable will sound. You have to hear them with your own ears on your own gear because what works for one will not for another. Every system is different and every system is the sum of the pieces, including the cables. Synergy is key.

For someone to come here and simply say that high end cables are BS is flat out ignorant, counterproductive and not what Club Polk is about.

As far as fitting in here and as with any social group, respect is earned. One cannot just jump in saying here I am, look at me. There is a right way to interact and there is a way that will cause you to be outcast from the start. The path one chooses is on them and they have to live with the choice they make. When one chooses the wrong path, they have no right to whine about how they are treated.

ben62670

So cute. No Tech Kid believes in sea fairies:rolleyes:

ND13

The majority of folk's who are new to a board try to ease their way into that particular forum's culture before spewing off at the keyboard. Here if one does, one WILL get hazed, but if one has thick skin and can show that they can contribute without pitching a hissy fit, they eventually find this place to be the best board around. Though there are close to 62k "members", it's a community of a few hundred.

Jesse(among others)can be one of THE most helpful and friendly people in CP, but he will put one through the gauntlet to prove one's worth when he feels the need or just get's that gut feeling that a troll has arrived. I for one am grateful that he does, because I'm not that patient and would get banned.

Just had to quote myself from the "Emotiva Story".

Nuff said.

heiney9

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Wrong steveinaz, when people start to provide info versus bashing I am all hears (eyes in this case) and study the info at hand and then it becomes fruitfull discussion but when people bash, disrecpect and use name calling, what kind of meat do you think there is for anyone to learn??? I am from a technical background, where would you think I tend to get my source? I actually worked on cable simulators, my technical training over that makes me well aware of the LCR effect of cabling but forgive my background and who I am (25+ years relying on the technical facts) therefore hard for me to simply rely on simple hearing the difference. Don't you thing that since this discussion has started I haven't asked questions in my own surrounding knowing that who knows I could possibly be wrong? I think the path this discussion now seems to be taking might afterall provide some positive... this is all I want afterall (I don't care about being right or wrong as long as the proper (reliable) info is provided). The only way to be get this certainty, is to discuss the matter intelligently with people that are willing to provide with pertinent information that will make me see differently.

Stop relying on cable simulators and technical facts and start using your ears. If it's hard for you to believe your ears then you really should just stick to basic cables and stop trying to convince those of us who actually hear a difference that it has to correlate to something on paper.

My pertinent information is get you ears on as many different types of cables you can find...............and choose the ones that sound the best to you in your rig. Stop trying to look at data sheets, prices and telling other people what they hear and experience is invalid because you don't believe it; can't hear it; or think a certain $$$ is enough to spend on cables.

H9

AudioGenics

Contrary to our intuition, we demonstrate that noise can be a benefit factor that enhances our hearing sensitivity. We measured subjects' abilities to detect near threshold pure tone in different noise levels. The results show that by adding noise of certain level, the subjects can detect near threshold pure tone better than without noise.

AudioGenics

It has been long recognized that the ear's sensitivity varies with frequency especially at low levels as studied by Fletcher and Munson ; Robinson and Dadson.

commonly known as "The Fletcher & Munson hearing sensitivity curve"

The human ear is sensitive in the region of 2 - 4 kHz with significant rolloffs above and below this narrow range

AudioGenics

A cable simulator will compensate for differential frequency losses across a length of cable by attenuating signal levels of higher frequencies until they equal signal levels of lower frequencies. The cable simulator is used in situations where there are excessive signal levels at the tap port and a short cable drop to the subscriber.

tonyb

........yeah...ok.
Is this an attempt to school us on the fine points and limitations of the human ear?
Now there's a discussion we never had.:rolleyes:

Too early for this crap,gotta go suck down some java and scratch my balls.

Ricardo

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

A cable simulator will compensate for differential frequency losses across a length of cable by attenuating signal levels of higher frequencies until they equal signal levels of lower frequencies. The cable simulator is used in situations where there are excessive signal levels at the tap port and a short cable drop to the subscriber.

Nice quote:

http://www.eaglecomtronics.com/Products/Cable_TV_Products/Signal_Conditioning_Products/Cable_Simulators/cable_simulators.html

AudioGenics

Yes
Establishing what the accepted facts are (subject to debate) and then where the opinions, imagination, and creativity for new thoughts begins

steveinaz

TECHNOKID wrote: »

and I would honestly say you are one of them! While you write honestly what you think, never yet I have seen anything disrespectfull in your part!

There's just no need to take things to a personal level. Either you believe in the benefits of cable swapping or you don't. All you can do is recommend to others that they try it--instead of relying on what they've read somewhere.

The main thing that people forget in this hobby is that it is filled with subjectivity. Yes, even the big boys can be wrong--or, they are listening for attributes that they consider "reference" or most desireable in audio; why do you think tubes are so popular?

Bottom line, you buy and select those things for your system that you feel improve it's performance. You shouldn't have to feel a need to justify that to anyone.

Mutual respect is a 2-way street. I may not agree with your opinion, but I respect the fact that you are entitled to one.

steveinaz

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

Yes
Establishing what the accepted facts are (subject to debate) and then where the opinions, imagination, and creativity for new thoughts begins

So, accept the facts and be happy with your choices and move on. Others simply don't share your observations--is that so hard to swallow? It's called opinion, and everyone has one.

There are facts and formulas that prove a bee shouldn't be able to fly--so do we ignore the fact that they can?

heiney9

The biggest issue I see is no one can really say how the so called facts correlate to what each individual hears and how their brain processes what they hear. You can spout all the measured facts you want...............but until you can correlate that to each and every individual's perceptions, processing capabilities, sensibilities about what sounds correct or good; it's nothing but a bunch of words, graphs, theories on a computer screen or piece of paper.

H9

Erik Tracy

steveinaz wrote: »

So, accept the facts and be happy with your choices and move on. Others simply don't share your observations--is that so hard to swallow? It's called opinion, and everyone has one.

The issue I have is that many of the hard line 'audio atheists' have never conducted there own observations - they just quote from on line sources.

I myself was a skeptic - then I listened for myself and concluded -for me - for my rig - for my preferences - I was able to hear and detect differences in cables....and now I have gone down a path I never thought I would be on.

And as F1nut quite aptly stated - it is all about system synergy and what works for you.

As long as both camps can agree that utlimately, it should be one's own ears that make the final decision - I'm good with that.

But to shout down others with quotes and links, and then chide us who do hear changes that we are subject to Jedi Mind Tricks - that is not what I would consider being open minded.

Go try for yourself - if you don't hear any changes - cool, at least you can state that you tried something for yourself and have a position based on an observation.

AudioGenics

Good point.
Another topic of debate and academic study

Although.... Insects including the Bumblebee appear to have the ability of flight or appear to fly in a vortex in relation to the main current of air flow by its wings oscillating over 125 times/second. Observations made possible by the use of high speed photography. (Great TESTING capabilities)

I believe No One has ever proved that a Bumblebee can NOT fly.

It appears that the MYTH that a Bumblebee can not fly is what is generally thought incorrectly.

Rather that a particular mathematical model was not thorough and stringent enough to explain "The Flight of the Bumblebee".

I like that Nature presents us these thought provoking challenges.

It is so much fun

ND13

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

I like that Nature presents us these thought provoking challenges.

Yeah like nature's seeming inability to weed out trolls.

Have you written anything without cut and paste?

Some would say you've plagiarized most of your post, since you rarely quote the source of your asinine material.

ben62670

JVC can you play my heart bleeds for me on the Violin?

I have dibs on post 1000 in this stupid thread:rolleyes:

AudioGenics

Feel free to express yourself.
preferably in a mature and intelligent manner

AudioGenics

that was funny:)
I hope also to get 1000 posts out of this thread

sucks2beme

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Wrong steveinaz, when people start to provide info versus bashing I am all hears (eyes in this case) and study the info at hand and then it becomes fruitfull discussion but when people bash, disrecpect and use name calling, what kind of meat do you think there is for anyone to learn??? I am from a technical background, where would you think I tend to get my source? I actually worked on cable simulators, my technical training over that makes me well aware of the LCR effect of cabling but forgive my background and who I am (25+ years relying on the technical facts) therefore hard for me to simply rely on simple hearing the difference. Don't you thing that since this discussion has started I haven't asked questions in my own surrounding knowing that who knows I could possibly be wrong? I think the path this discussion now seems to be taking might afterall provide some positive... this is all I want afterall (I don't care about being right or wrong as long as the proper (reliable) info is provided). The only way to be get this certainty, is to discuss the matter intelligently with people that are willing to provide with pertinent information that will make me see differently.

One of our members did a VERY good study about power. We would all
welcome a real study done well about cables. We go by ear because
there is little real true UNBIASED cable facts out there. We know homebrew
can be done 50-75% cheaper than buying a factory cable. But buying
used, listening, and reselling again on Polk FM involves little or no loss
of money, it works for us. And, systems vary so much that a good cable
in system A wouldn't be a good cable in system B. I've seen some detailed
tests done on cable, but no mention of how it SOUNDS in a system.
We can observe results easier than predicting results. RF , CATV, and
Ethernet applications standards are far more defined than audio.
Preamps and power amps designs are all over the place in input and output
characteristics. And speakers are just as bad.
The people who create these cables can measure and provide those specs,
but mostly go with glowing marketing terms. And god knows what
LCR would match up best in my system. I understand your fustration.
But it is what it is. A member rec for a cable in a system like mine is far
more valuable than all the marketing hype and tech specs in the world.

ben62670

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

that was funny:)
I hope also to get 1000 posts out of this thread

I don't want a thousand posts in a thread. I want the 1000th post, and I was kidding. The more you post in a thread going nowhere the dumber you look.

AudioGenics

ben62670 wrote: »

I don't want a thousand posts in a thread. I want the 1000th post, and I was kidding. The more you post in a thread going nowhere the dumber you look.

i was also kidding.
it was fun playing this game....

thank you

THIS CABLE HAS BEEN TERMINATED......

steveinaz

Part of the problem is that non-believers go from the standpoint that a given wire can pass the full audio spectrum, therefore is suitable; and thus feel their argument is made. Not true, we're talking subtlties in tone, not wether or not a cable has the ability to handle the signal. This fact is already known. How anyone, with even the least amount of electrical learning cannot accept that capacitance, impedance, and resistance can have an audible effect (frequency roll-off, loose bass, etc) is beyond me if you understand cable topologies, materials, connectors, and impedance matching. If you really want to hear cable differences, put a low impeadance RCA analog interconnect between your CDP and DAC. The 75ohm specification for SPDIF is intended to be followed fairly closely; where RCA analog inputs/cabling vary all over the map. Maybe this explains why different cables can sometimes have a different tonal character.

I don't pretend to know it all--far from it, but I do know that I hear differences in cables. Why? Hell I don't know for sure, but I suspect the above may explain some of it---but more importantly I don't care, it works well in my system, so I use it. I also don't know how a 6yr old autistic child can play a piano like Motzart, that doesn't make the reality any less true.

Flash21

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I myself was a skeptic - then I listened for myself and concluded -for me - for my rig - for my preferences - I was able to hear and detect differences in cables....and now I have gone down a path I never thought I would be on.

+1 my story exactly.

Perhaps someday we can objectively measure and predict how cables will perform. From what I have read, some general sonic attributes have been connected to such parameters as inductance, capacitance, etc., but variations in performance persist within these crude parameters. So, we are either not measuring everything that needs to be measured, or the resolution of our measurement is not sufficient to predict performance.

Now, throw synergy with the connected equipment into the mix (read my review of the Cambridge 840C CDP for a striking example of variable synergy), and you complicate the prediction of cable performance a thousandfold.

So while it would be very nice IMHO to have established formulas for cable+equipment relationships, it seems like we are still a long way off. Which leads to threads such as this one...

steveinaz

Well, the other more simpler point: Why would I pay $200 for a set of RCA IC's when I could get by with a $6.99 set from Radio Shack---or better yet the free 69 cent IC that came with the equipment if all cables sound exactly the same? Why would anyone?

You guys obviously have no idea how cheap I am...LOL, seriously. There's NO shame in my game, if the 69 cent jobs worked as well as better stuff, I'd be using them.

Flash21

Why indeed, if they "sound exactly the same"...I have no interest in peeing away money if there is not a benefit.

steveinaz

Having said all that, there are LOTS of cables that are rediculously expensive, and loaded with snake oil.

That's where the listening for yourself part comes in...;)

Add to that, that the most expensive cable isn't always better. I'd be willing to spend $300 on a digital coax, but I like my $14.99 Belden the best (so far) of the coax's I've heard.

Fongolio

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

i was also kidding.
it was fun playing this game....

thank you

THIS CABLE HAS BEEN TERMINATED......

Uh huh. Watch me get him back....Why, Mr. Chen, do you have the desperate need to show the world how "intelligent" you are? And by so doing prove exactly the opposite. Just curious.

Fongolio

Mr. Chen just sent me a PM that says "You got me!".