Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited March 2009
    Although there is a thread much longer than the Emotiva thread, can't remember which. The most recent thread that is well over 1000 posts is Ricardo's Emo story.

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    ....15,634 views Emo .... very impressive
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    ....19,766 for Chicago Polkfest .... still searching
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    Ok guys my periods are over I am normal again;):D

    Still trying to wash the dirt of me from all the mud slinging :)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2009
    Normal is a relative term.............don't say it....prove it
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • seafire
    seafire Posts: 459
    edited March 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Normal is a relative term.............don't say it....prove it
    I have nothing to prove least of all to you:cool:
    Tell me is life boring there ''DOWN BY THE RIVER" ?
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    ......I can prove it..... FINALLY something that I Understand !!!

    8.1 Proof of Normal Equations

    We will assume that ATA is invertible. This is a reasonable assumption because there are more equations than unknowns. The length of the vector x is defined to be the lenght of the vector so the length of the vector squared is the length of the vector squared The square of the length of the vector Ax-b is the sum of the squares of the errors since each element of Ax - b is the error at a point. We want to minimize this quantity. We claim that the solution to the normal equations, which we will denote as x* = (ATA)-1ATb, minimizes the sum of the squares of the errors.

    We claim, and will prove, that

    ||Ax - b||2 = ||Ax* - b||2 + ||A (x - x*)||2.

    Since we are minimizing over x, ||Ax - b||2 will be minimized when x = x* so that ||A (x - x*)||2 is zero. This is true because ||A (x - x*)||2 can never be negative.

    To prove the claim, we will work with the right side of the equation and prove that it is equal to the left side. These equations are numbered. There are short explanations of these steps following the proof.
    = ||Ax* - b||2 + ||A (x - x*)||2 (1)
    = (Ax* - b)T (Ax* - b) + (A(x - x*))T A(x - x*) (2)
    = (A (ATA)-1ATb - b)T (A (ATA)-1ATb - b)T +
    (A(x - (ATA)-1ATb))T A(x - (ATA)-1ATb) (3)
    = (A (ATA)-1 ATb - b)T (A (ATA)-1 ATb - b) +
    (Ax - A (ATA)-1 ATb)T (Ax - A (ATA)-1 ATb) (4)
    = (bTA (ATA)-1 AT - bT) (A (ATA)-1 ATb - b) +
    (xTAT - bTA (ATA)-1 AT)(Ax - A (ATA)-1 ATb) (5)
    = (bTA (ATA)-1 ATA (ATA)-1ATb - 2bTA (ATA)-1ATb + bTb +
    (xTATAx - 2bTA (ATA)-1 ATAx + bTA (ATA)-1 ATA (ATA)-1ATb) (6)
    = (bTA (ATA)-1 ATb - 2bTA (ATA)-1 ATb + bTb) +
    (xTATAx - 2bTAx + bTA (ATA)-1 ATb) (7)
    = bTb + xTATAx - 2bTAx (8)

    Now, if we look at the left side of the equation, we can see that it equals the right side because
    ||Ax - b||2 = (Ax - b)T (Ax - b) = (xTAT - bT) (Ax - b) = xTATAx - 2bTAx + bTb.

    This proves that x = x* = (ATA)-1ATb uniquely minimizes the sum of the squares of the error for the equation Ax - b.

    The following are comments on the steps of the proof:

    1. This is the right hand side of the equation from the claim.

    2. ||y||2 = yTy

    3. Replace x* with (ATA)-1ATb.

    4. Distribute A in the second term.

    5. (M + N)T = MT + NT, (RS)T = STR T, and (A-1)T = (AT)-1

    6. Because each term is a vector and xTy = yTx, which can also be written as equations, we can multiply in a manner similar to polynomial multiplication. However, we must remember that matrix multiplication is not commutative, so the order of multiplication of the matrices matters.

    7. (ATA)-1(ATA) = I

    8. Combine like terms.
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  • Fongolio
    Fongolio Posts: 3,516
    edited March 2009
    Grade 11 algebra.
    SDA-1C (full mods)
    Carver TFM-55
    NAD 1130 Pre-amp
    Rega Planar 3 TT/Shelter 501 MkII
    The Clamp
    Revox A77 Mk IV Dolby reel to reel
    Thorens TD160/Mission 774 arm/Stanton 881S Shibata
    Nakamichi CR7 Cassette Deck
    Rotel RCD-855 with modified tube output stage
    Cambridge Audio DACmagic Plus
    ADC Soundshaper 3 EQ
    Ben's IC's
    Nitty Gritty 1.5FI RCM
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    I feel like I just walked into the twilight zone.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Flash21
    Flash21 Posts: 316
    edited March 2009
    This thread has become tiresome! Now is the time on Schprockets ven ve dance!
    Steve Carlson
    Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
    Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
    Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
    Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
    VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
    Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten
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  • suprafantx
    suprafantx Posts: 249
    edited March 2009
    joseph.v.chen wrote: »
    what thread is the longest and most widely viewed.....

    if the sheeps keep blah blah blah...., this thread will be the one.

    Do not underestimate the power of the sheeps if they are in large number
    Living room
    Speakers: McIntosh XR100 Fronts, LSIM707 Fronts, LSIM 706 Center, LSIM 703 Surrounds, LSi/FX Surround backs.
    Player: Oppo 95.
    Amps: Bryston 4B SST, B&K Ref 200.7 S2.
    Pres: B&K Ref 50 S2, Paraound P5.
    Subs: Dual Rythmik F15HP subs.

    Man Cave
    Speakers: Martin Logan Vistas.
    Player: OPPO 105.
    Preamp: B&K Ref 50 S2.
    Amp: B&K Ref 125.2 S2
    Sub: Rythmik F12.
    Sub management: SMS-1.
    Headphones: HD800, HD380, RS220, SRH-1840. Headphone amp: Woo WA2.
    Room treatment: GIK Room Kit #1.
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    actually it was grade 9.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited March 2009
    Is this thread still going on? If nothing else everyone seems to have good endurance. :)
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited March 2009
    joseph.v.chen wrote: »
    actually it was grade 9.

    Actually, it was prenatal care.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • bobt
    bobt Posts: 280
    edited March 2009
    Good god...you guys have carried this post.....to in sane stuff.....

    If you have 100 buck cable...and it works for you...great.....if you have 500 buck cable..and it works for you ...Fine.....

    For god sake guys........it's all up to your own ears.

    How it's made....whatever...at this point who cares.....

    I am really sorry I did this......
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited March 2009
    joseph.v.chen wrote: »
    actually it was grade 9.

    Hey Joseph,

    Good read on the forum. You'll do fine here! You have to be able to absorb the hits and counterpunch. Bravo!

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    How TRUE !

    Here I am listening to Mozart .... .
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    forgot to add.... NO SPEAKER WIRES required !
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  • bobt
    bobt Posts: 280
    edited March 2009
    look..just stop the thread..Its way out of hand.........you can buy whatever you want.
    If you think i'm wrong...fine.....pay whatever you want for speaker cables.
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  • bobt
    bobt Posts: 280
    edited March 2009
    OK...I did not want to deal with this ....but ..your pretty much an ****....

    You don't like what i say...fine........you don't get it...your probelem.....not mine.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited March 2009
    "Now go and get your shine box."
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    edited March 2009
    Interspersed between the bobt posts and the seafire posts are some of the craziest posts I've ever read.... Everybody should go back and read some of these gems from joseph.v.chen! I think everyone was so wrapped up in the seafire saga that hardly anyone even commented on these chen posts. He's clearly on a higher plane!

    What I'd really like to see here is some mathematical proof of the superiority of certain cables/spearker wires. How about it joseph.v.chen?:confused:

    P.S. You rock, dude!:)

    P.S.S. seafire - You're a pretty intriguing individual yourself. I'm glad you inserted yourself into this fray.;)
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    What we have is a Tautology (rhetoric), repetition of meaning, using different words to say the same thing twice, especially where the additional words fail to provide additional clarity ....(description taken from wikipedia)
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited March 2009
    bobt wrote: »
    Good god...you guys have carried this post.....to in sane stuff.....

    If you have 100 buck cable...and it works for you...great.....if you have 500 buck cable..and it works for you ...Fine.....

    For god sake guys........it's all up to your own ears.

    How it's made....whatever...at this point who cares.....

    I am really sorry I did this......

    So, you gonna step up and buy a good preamp?
    It's the least you could do after starting this crapfest!
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    .... a game that we play with infinite loops....

    OK let us all together create a proof of "Speaker Cable Superiority"... NO FUN doing it Alone .....
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    Question : Is a Speaker Cable better than another ?
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    Question : What are the criteria of a better Cable ?
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    Question : How is it determined that one Cable is superior ?
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    Question : Is Price a consideration of a superior Cable ?
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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited March 2009
    Question: What is the value of a superior cable?
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This discussion has been closed.