My 2.3 TL rebuild - so close it hurts

quadzilla

Got the first part of the Clarity ESA caps in this week, so since I've gotten the rest of the cash together for the rest of the caps and the Deuland Cast resistors, called the supplier, at which point I found out they're out of 2 of the resistor values I need, so I'm waiting again.

I'll also be placing orders for spikes, dynamat, blackhole 5, gimpod's boards, new internal cabling, RDO-198s, binding posts, and hopefully, if he answers my PM, Larry's rings.

I'd really like to get everything here by xmas, since I'm off that week and could do the rebuild then.

On a side note, I'll be selling the extra caps in the FM. I had to order 10 of each to get partsconnexion to put the order for the values I need through. Otherwise, I'm going to have enough extra caps to do 4 more sets of 2.3 TLs, and this will probably be one of the more expensive 2.3 rebuilds chronicled here. So if anyone wants some, feel free to let me know.

headrott

What price are we talking for the clarity caps? That is, what price for a complete set to do the 2.3TL's? Thanks for the (future) offer.

Greg

Toolfan66

Sorry Quad!!! I totally forgot.. I will hook you up!!!

quadzilla

headrott wrote: »

What price are we talking for the clarity caps? That is, what price for a complete set to do the 2.3TL's? Thanks for the (future) offer.

Greg

The retail price listed at partsconnexion minus about 10%. Once I find out what my total w/ shipping is, I'll know what I actually have in them, and that's what I'll sell them for.

That said, I also need some quick disconnects, if anyone knows of a good one, as in better than tinned copper. I know soldering the cables directly to the speaker and board would be better, but if I ever have to disassemble the things, it would be fairly heinous. May end up going that way any way. Just haven't made a final decision there yet.

gimpod

quadzilla wrote: »

That said, I also need some quick disconnects, if anyone knows of a good one, as in better than tinned copper. I know soldering the cables directly to the speaker and board would be better, but if I ever have to disassemble the things, it would be fairly heinous. May end up going that way any way. Just haven't made a final decision there yet.

The only ones I could find that fit the stock connectors are the one's I have listed on my site. If you decide to go another way for connectors just remember as far as my boards go the pins need to be on 0.250" centers and no bigger than 0.079" in diameter.

BTW your boards are wrapped, packed and ready to go whenever you are.

inspiredsports

PM sent for four 5.8uf ESA's.

I could also use four 12uf's and two 4.4uf's in ESA, but I don't think 2.3 TL's require those values.

quadzilla

gimpod wrote: »

The only ones I could find that fit the stock connectors are the one's I have listed on my site. If you decide to go another way for connectors just remember as far as my boards go the pins need to be on 0.250" centers and no bigger than 0.079" in diameter.

BTW your boards are wrapped, packed and ready to go whenever you are.

I'm contemplating fabbing some if I can't find anything. I'm also looking at screw terminal barrier strips at least on the xover side. The upgrade is going to be as balls out as I can afford to make it so...

And the quick disconnects I was asking about are the ones that go on the speaker end of the cable. I'm sure I can come up with something at the xover end.

drumminman

quadzilla wrote: »

I'm contemplating fabbing some if I can't find anything. I'm also looking at screw terminal barrier strips at least on the xover side. The upgrade is going to be as balls out as I can afford to make it so...

And the quick disconnects I was asking about are the ones that go on the speaker end of the cable. I'm sure I can come up with something at the xover end.

Hey Quad, I'm following this thread with interest :loneranger:

What wire are are you planning to use from Xover to speakers? Also interested in the manner in which you attach same to Xover board. Thought about doing the rewire myself, but I've been enjoying listening to the modded speaks too much to break everything down again!

You're about to transform those 2.3TL's :eek: :cheesygrin:

quadzilla

I'm thinking about neotech SOCT 12 AWG hook up wire, if I can ever find any. The other option would probably be to use something like Neotech NES-3001 speaker cable.

Going back to how I hook it up, I'm thinking about terminating each end with a cardas spades sized for barrier strips, and then use barrier strips at each end. Not as convenient as the quick disconnects if I need to pull something out, but at least I could do it with just a screw driver.

gimpod

I know you want to go all out on modding these 2.3TL's but IMO your over thinking things. Rewiring these IMO and others here who have actually done this have come to the conclusion that it's not worth the time, trouble and especially the expense for what little if any gain you get in return. Let's talk cost's for wire alone, If you use that "Neotech NES-3001" at $70.00 a foot and figuring about 10 - 15 ft rough guess (3 tweeters & 6 drivers and don't forget that the drivers are wired in a series / parallel configuration) your looking at $700.00 -$900.00 per speaker just for wire alone.

But if you do this do not use solid core hookup wire as the resistance is greater than a good tinned OFC high strand count speaker wire. You have to remember that even though electricity behaves a lot like water in the way it flows electricity flows on the surface of the wire not through it like water in a pipe. This is why you can get more current through a stranded piece of wire of the same gauge than a solid core piece of wire. The stranded wire has more surface area.

Personally I don't think it's worth doing it. Besides why make thing more complicated than they need be.

There your speakers and your money so you can do what ever you want.
Just my $0.02.

quadzilla

OK, thanks. I've gone back and forth on the internal rewiring. I've seen threads where people did, and threads where they didn't. And I know that stranded wire can carry more current, but that's why I'd run wire about double the gauge needed so that current limiting doesn't become a factor.

And part of me just shudders at the thought of spending several hundred, or thousand, on cables to get the signal from my amps to the speakers, then running the internal part of the signal over .01 cent/ft cable and what that does to the sound, especially the PVC and the way that affects the sound, given that PVC is about the worst dielectric out there. The other side of that is that stranded wire, or so I've read in many places, introduces greater hysteresis in the signal, since each wire has it's own magnetic field. And my understanding of litz is that this is designed to compensate for this affect. So I was also looking at http://www.soniccraft.com/products/wire/chassis/cardas.htm, which is a metric crap-ton cheaper than the other stuff, just urethane insulated. And it's only 1.75/ft for 15.5 ga, so we're talking 20-30 bucks/speaker.

inspiredsports

Getting the signal to the binding posts is important, but beyond that you could consider the wires used as part of the entire speaker system.

One thing to consider is that Polk took the inductance/resistance/capacitance of the existing wire into account when the speaker was designed. It is true that new caps and resistors may also have different characteristics, but the experimentation by CP members was generally done with the original wire in place. You're adding another variable to the mods which may or may not yield a synergystic improvement.

gimpod

inspiredsports is correct the internal wiring is considered in the overall design of the crossover.

Here's some food for thought: If you use that Carads wire seeing how it has a Teflon jacket and each individual strand of wire is urethane insulated which means for every connection that you'll need to make (by my count for 2.3.TL's that's 38 per speaker) you'll have to strip off the Teflon jacket and then strip off the urethane insulation for each strand of wire. I don't know the strand count for that wire but it could be as high as 20 or more strands for each connection. That my friend is a lot of tedious work.

quadzilla

I have no doubt the internal wiring was considered in the over all design, but what I'd like to ask Mr. Polk was if what was put in was "best", or like several other things, simply "the best that could be done at the given price point". And was it simply the best that worked with the poly and electrolytic caps? It's just things I'm wondering. I still haven't decided either way, just considering various options from leaving the original wiring, to trying a few different things and seeing what happens.

Also, I consider the whole upgrade a bit tedious, but then, I don't especially enjoy the process. But I do so very love the end result. On the other hand, since I'm going with your boards, it may be a lot less tedious than trying to cram the new caps on the smallish xover boards like I've done so far. I might even find out that I like it, in that case.

Also, I have really nice strippers

headrott

gimpod wrote: »

inspiredsports is correct the internal wiring is considered in the overall design of the crossover.

Here's some food for thought: If you use that Carads wire seeing how it has a Teflon jacket and each individual strand of wire is urethane insulated which means for every connection that you'll need to make (by my count for 2.3.TL's that's 38 per speaker) you'll have to strip off the Teflon jacket and then strip off the urethane insulation for each strand of wire. I don't know the strand count for that wire but it could be as high as 20 or more strands for each connection. That my friend is a lot of tedious work.

You can also use a soldering iron to burn off the urethane insulation on the ends of the wires. I've done it and it works well. You just have to make sure you get all of it off with the soldering iron.

Greg

drumminman

Even easier than a soldering iron to burn off the urethane insulation may be a solder pot. I've read of others doing this on litz wire that has a very high strand count, 140/40! Apparently you just drag the wire through the solder pot, and it does all the wires at once.

Quad I'm thinking like you, that the wire may have been the best available at that price point at that time. I suppose this is a topic that could be debated ad infinitum. Some have tried it, but I don't know what wire was used.

VR3

Madisound has extremey nice disconnects, gold plated

Toolfan66

Mod till your ears are happy!!! I for one love the process of modding, I find it kind of addicting myself.

drumminman

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

Mod till your ears are happy!!! I for one love the process of modding, I find it kind of addicting myself.

+1 :cheesygrin:

quadzilla

On the cardas site, George recommends either the solder pot or soldering iron method.

Spikes are decided and ordered: multi-element cones from http://www.adonacorporation.com/tweaks.html.

Need to send payment for rings and boards next.

gimpod

I didn't mean to be busting your balls about the wiring was just trying to point out some of the pitfalls but if that's what you want to do then I say go for it mod your brains out and have fun doing it.:cool:

BTW Those spikes look cool, out of my price range at moment maybe in a couple months if I ever get my CRS+'s done.

quadzilla

Nothing worth doing is easy, and nothing easy is worth doing.

inspiredsports

The point I'm trying to make is that while it may be considered "better wire", the capacitance, resistance and inductance of the Cardas litz wire might be different enough that it would allow for different capacitor, inductor and resistor values to have been prescribed in the circuit if it was originally used by Matt Polk.

It might change the crossover points and voicing of the speakers for the better, or maybe the opposite.

My hunch is that it will thin out the bass.

Toolfan66

I can see using stranded wire over solid core wire but because it's different then whats in the polks or what Matt used?? I won't bite on that one. most of us have taken these SDA's far away from where they were that I highly doubt that changing the wire inside these speakers is going to take them that far out of spec that there is a chance of them sounding bad..

When I get to the point of having external crossovers I will be changing all the wire as well, only because I want to keep the original harness's intact.

Knock yourself out and have fun..

inspiredsports

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

I can see using stranded wire over solid core wire but because it's different then whats in the polks or what Matt used?? I won't bite on that one. most of us have taken these SDA's far away from where they were that I highly doubt that changing the wire inside these speakers is going to take them that far out of spec that there is a chance of them sounding bad..

When I get to the point of having external crossovers I will be changing all the wire as well, only because I want to keep the original harness's intact.

Knock yourself out and have fun..

This is one case I've experienced personally when I purchased 100' of Polk "Cobra Cable" which is a form of litz wire. I experimented with some short lengths as speaker wire.

This is the wire with supposedly the lowest inductance (and highest capacitance) in the world. The stuff is great for bi-wiring on the tweeter side but very weak on the bass side, especially with low impedance speakers. Back in the day, it was also responsible for destroying a lot of vintage amps that were not designed to handle the high capacitance.

quadzilla

Be that as it may, it's hardly a fair comparison. I'm sure soniccraft has the specs on the Cardas litz hook up wire. Further, according to George Cardas, when he designs a cable, he designs it so that the dielectric properties match the conductor to minimize time smear and maximize coherency. And this is the important bit... the wiring inside the cabinet is about a third of the signal path from my amps to the speakers. I run monoblocks which sit next to the speaker, and run 6 ft cables from the amps to the binding posts. So the internal wiring will have a significant, I think, effect on the sound. And that's what got me thinking so hard about replacing the harness with something, hopefully, better.

quadzilla

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Madisound has extremey nice disconnects, gold plated

They have the right sizes, but would a gold plated piece of brass be any better than a piece of tin plated copper? I'd give a body part for a silver plated pure copper quick disconnect.

quadzilla

Small update on the progress...

Larry's rings and Tony's boards are here now, so I decided to get the last of the bits ordered today for the mod.

Cardas Litz 15.5 chassis wire
Cardas litz 17.5 for xover jumpers
Blackhole 5 (for the cabinet)
Dynamat for the passives and MWs
Adona Multi-Element Cones (spikes)
Soldering pot and Cardas quad-eutectic bars for litz preparation
RDO-198s
Cardas binding posts

I also went ahead and got some new Cardas spades to split my shotgun speaker cable into separate upper and lower runs and go bi-wire. I haven't found any jumpers I like for less than about 500 so far, so this is a temporary thing until I either get some more money or whatever.

The rest of the caps will hopefully be here around the end of the month along with the Deuland resistors. While I was at it, I found these: http://www.partsconnexion.com/product8802.html and had to have them.

At some point, I'm sure I'll do the big inductors and build a dreadnought IC, but that takes a little planning. I just don't like the use of the binding post. I'm thinking I'd rather go with a good speakon connector. They should pretty much fit right into the hole left by the current connector.

F1nut

quadzilla wrote: »

Spikes are decided and ordered: multi-element cones from http://www.adonacorporation.com/tweaks.html.

Those spikes are 2 1/2" tall, which is going to make the tweeters higher than ear level.

quadzilla

You haven't met me, so it's not surprising that you'd think that. I'm not short. Besides, if I don't like them it's not hard to swap out spikes. And what's on there now is about that tall.

quadzilla

And just like that, my 2.3 TLs are no longer completely stock. I got Larry's rings in a couple of weeks ago, and decided to go ahead and get them installed ahead of the rest of the upgrades. Ended up taking 3 days, since I was on call this weekend and the important stuff, like installing the rings, kept getting interrupted by people whining about their network being down and how much money they were losing. Yeesh... whiners. If it's down now, it'll be down tomorrow, so eff off, ya know?

Any way, the install wasn't too bad. Had to modify the 15" rings due to the depth of the routing for the passive, and trim the tweeter brackets so they'd fit around the bracing. But other than that, it went pretty smooth. Also took the time to make new gaskets out of Armaflex for everything, including the tweeters. Using the tweeter drilling template to form the tweeter gaskets make that part go very easy.

And it was so worth it. The sound is much improved even ahead of the xover and wiring upgrades I'll be doing over the Xmas holidays. The sound stage came forward a couple of feet, midrange clarity is improved a bit, and the bass gained a lot of slam.

So I'd say this upgrade is off to a great start.