My 2.3 TL rebuild - so close it hurts

audiocr381ve

quadzilla wrote: »

Got a set of the spikes that F1 suggested in http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?127648-Looking-for-high-end-stands-or-spikes. I like them. The original spikes were, indeed, a bit too tall. They were the same height as what was there, but these lower the tweeters almost 2 inches, and it made a big difference in the top end detail. I'd post a picture, but the speakers just look like they're sitting on the carpet now.

As far as burn in, the new bits are coming up on 20 hours, and detail levels are improving nicely. The speakers are insanely dynamic now. The bottom is gaining texture and tightening up even more, while the highs are starting to open up a bit. The mids are quite full and detailed at this point, and I just expect it to get even better over the next couple hundred hours. I really do think the Deuland Cast resistors and the Claritycap ESAs compliment each other perfectly.

Cool man, I'm glad you're enjoying the changes. What's really spooky is when things just snap into place around 200-300 hours. I rebuilt my xover's with Clarity Cap PX's all around and I really dig em'.

quadzilla

The last 2 sets of speakers I modified never "snapped into place". It was a gradual thing where they both opened up and settled down over time. But that's also just my perception, and both were done with sonicaps and mills. But as much as I actually hate modifying speakers, I've always enjoyed the end results.

Toolfan66

Hate?? I love it myself..

Congrats on everything working out..

headrott

quadzilla wrote: »

Got a set of the spikes that F1 suggested in http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?127648-Looking-for-high-end-stands-or-spikes. I like them. The original spikes were, indeed, a bit too tall. They were the same height as what was there, but these lower the tweeters almost 2 inches, and it made a big difference in the top end detail. I'd post a picture, but the speakers just look like they're sitting on the carpet now.

As far as burn in, the new bits are coming up on 20 hours, and detail levels are improving nicely. The speakers are insanely dynamic now. The bottom is gaining texture and tightening up even more, while the highs are starting to open up a bit. The mids are quite full and detailed at this point, and I just expect it to get even better over the next couple hundred hours. I really do think the Deuland Cast resistors and the Claritycap ESAs compliment each other perfectly.

I'm intesrested in seeing the pictures of the spikes on your 2.3TL's. I may get a set myself if they work nicely.

I'm glad you are liking the Clarity Cap ESA's and Duelund resistors. I almost have everything I need to do my crossovers. I look forward to hearing the 2.3TL's after the crossover change. I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to buy a set of the ESA's. I'll let everyone know when I get the crossovers done.

Greg

quadzilla

Toolfan66 wrote: »

Hate?? I love it myself..

Congrats on everything working out..

Yeah, I'm not that skilled at this stuff. I'm more of a software guy. I tend to be a danger to myself and others when I have a tool in my hands. And I usually end up destroying at least one thing. Like, say, a driver they don't make any more. But I do have a lot of respect for the guys that are good at it and enjoy it.

quadzilla

headrott wrote: »

I'm intesrested in seeing the pictures of the spikes on your 2.3TL's. I may get a set myself if they work nicely.

The only way I could get you a picture would be to lay the speakers over again. Right now, the cabinets just look like they're almost sitting on the carpet. The spikes are completely buried so you can't see them at all. They do seem to be working very well though. And dropping the speakers 1-3/4" made it sound a lot better.

headrott

I'll have to get some then. Also, did you get a 10W Duelund resistor for the 0.12 resistor in the polyswitch spot? I could not see it in the any of the photos. I think I could see one of the leads in one photo, but could not tell how you mounted it. Lastly, have you noticed any changes in the sound since last reporting?

Greg

quadzilla

I mounted it standing up and hot glued it to the cap next to it. I just kind of a string from the resistor to the cap to keep it from moving around.

Yeah, the sound is not that great at the moment. Lacks image weight, and the highs and lows seem more emphasized than they were when I first put it all together. That started creeping in at about 15-16 hours, and at 22-ish is still going on. Didn't really get much of a chance to listen tonight though. I'm also thinking about accelerating the break in and hooking up an ipod on repeat to my sand amp and just letting it run for about 10 days. I can always hook my tube amps up in the evenings/weekends to listen. Otherwise, with the amount I normally get to listen to the system, it's going to take 100-150 days to get to 200-300 hours. Not sure I want to wait 3+ months for them to finish breaking in. Should also make changes during the break in more apparent, as each time I sit down to listen they'll have another 20-22 hours on them.

headrott

Is it a Duelund 0.12R resistor? I asked but was told they can't make one with that low of a value. Where did you get yours form? Also is it a 5W? They are much shorter so that would make things easier.

You should do the endless iPod to break them in faster. Especially if the sound is not good at the moment. Please keep us posted as I am very interested in the results.

Greg

quadzilla

Actually, I had to buy 2 .6 and a .5 for each channel. If you don't want to drop 300 for resistors there, you can just go with a mills.

drumminman

quadzilla wrote: »

Actually, I had to buy 2 .6 and a .5 for each channel. If you don't want to drop 300 for resistors there, you can just go with a mills.

$ $ $ $ $ d-a-y-u-m! ! ! :eek:

quadzilla

meh... i got 500 in the new internal wiring, so whatevs....

headrott

quadzilla wrote: »

Actually, I had to buy 2 .6 and a .5 for each channel. If you don't want to drop 300 for resistors there, you can just go with a mills.

You did them in series then to get 1.1ohms? How easy was it to fit them there?

Greg

quadzilla

headrott wrote: »

You did them in series then to get 1.1ohms? How easy was it to fit them there?

Greg

Parallel to get .12 ohm. It wasn't hard.

audiocr381ve

quadzilla wrote: »

meh... i got 500 in the new internal wiring, so whatevs....

WTF did you use, pure gold??

quadzilla

Cardas litz twisted pair.

audiocr381ve

quadzilla wrote: »

Cardas litz twisted pair.

:eek:

Nice.

quadzilla

You know, I just noticed I made a mistake in my math.... the 2 .6 and 1 .5 are actually giving me .1875, so just above what the polyswitches were measured at. So... d'oh!

quadzilla

Speakers are past the 100 hour mark now. Been running them off my NAD C270 with an ipod on shufffle plugged in nearly around the clock. That can be jarring. Last night when I walked in the door, bloody thing was playing Butt Trumpets - I've Been So Mad Lately. Which was then followed by Sibelius - Symphony No. 2. Now that is a shock to the brain if you're not prepared.

Weight is back in the image. Vocals are sounding extremely good. General detail has improved immensely, with many recordings being revealed as having little trills, flourishes and runs across the entire sound spectrum that I've never heard before. The excessive bass has tamed down considerably, as someone mentioned it would. Bass itself continues to have a specific point in the sound stage. Transients are handled very well, even better than when I first hooked them up.

In general, I'm continuing to be very well pleased by how the burn in is progressing. I think over the weekend, I'm going to let them have some idle time, and just run the system as I normally would. That's still any where from 2 to 16 hours a day of listening, but at least they'll get a little rest.

headrott

quadzilla wrote: »

You know, I just noticed I made a mistake in my math.... the 2 .6 and 1 .5 are actually giving me .1875, so just above what the polyswitches were measured at. So... d'oh!

Ouch, I didn't notice it is two 0.6 ohms and one 0.5 ohms. so three resistors per poly replacement. Ouch! That is expensive! I am going to try a single 0.5 ohm Duelund and then add another if it's cutting the highs too much. We'll see.

Greg

quadzilla

I've got a couple of .5s you can have if you want them. They've been installed once for about 50 hours before I pulled them back out. One end is clipped, but if you hooking it to another resistor, it should be ok. I really don't think you're going to like 1 .5 in that position, and especially not a Mills.

Today was a horrible and a great day for my upgraded TLs. I noticed a small mistake in the speaker placement, and while moving the left speaker, the spike ripped out along with the t-nut and a fair bit of wood. But after a bit more wood putty and a trip to the hardware store, I found the 9/16" 1/4-20 t-nuts I'd been looking for when I had to settle for the 5/16". The 9/16", aside from being a quarter inch longer also fits much more tightly, so it's not relying on the prongs alone to hold the nut in place. In any case, while standing the speaker back up and getting everything aligned, I found another problem in the speaker placement. So it's all good now, and I got about another 2 ft. of width on the right side, and about 5 ft. on the left side, making both sides about as equal as I could ask for, and making my 15.5 ft wide room sound like it's about 20 ft. wide.

And detail really has come out a lot in these. I was listening to DSOTM (yeah, you knew this one would come up sooner or later), and noticed that on Any Colour You Like, when the guitars start their call and return section a few minutes in, there are voices behind the guitars in both tracks, mostly in the left, and most of it is the guitarist doubling his playing with his voice. I had never noticed that before on any system. Now it's quite plain to the point of unmistakable.

headrott

Except for the Inductors (which is apparant in the pictures) I have one of the crossovers done using Clarity Cap ESA's and Duelund Resistors. It was pretty easy to do, however a little figuring went into how to bend the wires correctly and the exact placement of the resistors especially. It would have been tougher if I hade not done multiple crossovers already. I think it came out pretty well. Just have to move the inductors from one board to the other and then do the other crossover. Since I have tomorrow off, I will try to get it done then. I also need to get some longer zip ties as the ones I had are too small for the 630V Clarity Caps.:cheesygrin: Also, I ended up inserting a jumper instead of the 0.5 ohm Duelund resistor in the polyswitch spot. i am interested in doing a comparison. I decided to just use a jumper first and then do the resistors later. I will add one 0.5 ohm and then another if necessary. It will be an interesting comparison. Below are a couple pictures for how it turned out. A huge thanks to Rob (quadzilla), Tony (gimpod) and Jesse (F1nut) for paving the way, the components and advice.

Greg

drumminman

headrott wrote: »

Except for the Inductors (which is apparant in the pictures) I have one of the crossovers done using Clarity Cap ESA's and Duelund Resistors. It was pretty easy to do, however a little figuring went into how to bend the wires correctly and the exact placement of the resistors especially. It would have been tougher if I hade not done multiple crossovers already. I think it came out pretty well. Just have to move the inductors from one board to the other and then do the other crossover. Since I have tomorrow off, I will try to get it done then. I also need to get some longer zip ties as the ones I had are too small for the 630V Clarity Caps.:cheesygrin: Also, I ended up inserting a jumper instead of the 0.5 ohm Duelund resistor in the polyswitch spot. i am interested in doing a comparison. I decided to just use a jumper first and then do the resistors later. I will add one 0.5 ohm and then another if necessary. It will be an interesting comparison. Below are a couple pictures for how it turned out. A huge thanks to Rob (quadzilla), Tony (gimpod) and Jesse (F1nut) for paving the way, the components and advice.

Greg

Nice job, Greg! And I like the way the silver/gray caps look on the black board - very stylish :cheesygrin:

quadzilla

Wow... those look almost as good as mine

Doesn't look like you have foam or anything under the caps. I'd recommend at least some hot glue, or better, foam tape to help damp the caps.

headrott

It's there. You can see it on the 27uF cap (on the left side). I trimmed it pretty close to the edge, so you can't see it on the other caps. Thanks again Rob for the caps. I am about to start the other board. Then, I'll do the inductors for both boards. Can't wait to try these out and burn them in.:biggrin::cool:

Greg

quadzilla

I'm north of 200 with these now, somewhere between 225 and 250, and getting happier all the time. Imaging and dynamics have continued to improve greatly, as has the level of detail. A couple of examples:

Beatles: Here Come Sun - has a synth part low in the mix. I never knew. Very clear now.
Florence and the Machine: Raise It Up - has both mandolin and harp parts, as well as piano, and the singers in the chorus each have their own voice instead of the "mash" of vocals that was there before.

Everything else: I'm hearing all kinds of new parts in nearly everything I listen to.

One thing I've noticed is that the bass is very different from anything I'm used to. It's hard to describe, exactly. If there's a lot of bass on a recording, these speakers will shake the walls. Even when there's not a "lot" of bass, I feel my chest and chair all vibrating at even moderate (85/90-ish db average) listening levels. And bass has a great deal of texture and detail, and even decay. I've not really had a set of speakers that gave me the reverb decay from a kick drum, as well as the drum head vibrating itself.

The highs also have opened up and become very, very detailed. Again, I'm hearing all sorts of stuff clearly at frequencies I didn't realize were even present in much quantity on a lot of my albums. I think there's either still a bit of break in left here, or this is one sign that I'm long overdue for room treatment, as very occasionally, an sss sound will suddenly come from one speaker or the other, though this happens a lot less now than it did before the upgrade. What I do hear is great air and space around every sound. But this is a mixed blessing. It's possible to tell now when instruments were recorded in different rooms, as you can here the original room under the reverb and echo added during mastering. You can also here if different instruments were mixed dry or not, so a piano may have almost no space while the vocals are dripping in reverb.

But now we get to where this upgrade seems to really excel; the mids. They're so clear, almost etched, but without an analytical quality. Warm, spacious, and glowing are the best words to describe how the mids are sounding now. No matter how much is going on in a recording, you can focus in on any one single instrument or singer, even if that singer is part of a chorus, or you can easily sit back and take the whole thing in as just a wave of sound coming at you to carry you away.

The sound stage has moved back a bit, but continues to widen. My 15.5 ft. wide room is now at least 25 ft. wide. The sound stage now starts about 5 ft. in front of the speakers, and goes back about 10 ft., though on some recordings, some sounds seem to come from more like 15 ft back behind the speakers. Everything is very 3D now, with each part of the recording have it's own width, height, and depth, making it all sound very alive.

To this point, the biggest improvement seemed to come in the first 100 hours, because those were the most obvious. The improvements now all seem to be about refinement, and the first 100 seemed to be about character. Gone is the overemphasis on the bass. I believe someone mentioned that should be expected. They were definitely correct there. Gone too are any hints of harshness or brittleness in the highs. But at the same time, the highs, as well as the mids, can be startling in their clarity. The general character seem to be best summed up as "open, detailed, on the neutral side, but still with a bit of warmth in the mids".

I love it.

quadzilla

Unless someone has questions, this will probably be my last post in this thread, as the speakers are now well past 300 hours. I might post the response curves if I get around to taking them in the next week or two. I have to say, this upgrade actually exceeded all my expectations, even given the cost. All total, I have about another 2k over my purchase price of 950, unless I never manage to sell the other 2 sets of caps I have, then it'll be closer to 2700. And even then, I would consider it a reasonable price for what I ended up with.

To summarize, in one place, the upgrade consisted of the following:

Started with bone stock 2.3 TLs from 1992.
SL3000 tweeters replaced with RDO-198s.
Spectra Dynamic anti-resonance corner blocks.
Claritycap ESA 630V capacitors.
Deuland CAST resistors at all locations, including polyswitch replacement.
Gimpod's (Tony) boards.
Toolfan66's (Larry) rings.
Cardas 15.5 ga litz chassis wire replacement harnesses (60 ft., could have been less, but I made the harnesses a bit longer than stock since I was hard wiring).
Cardas Litz 17.5 gauge litz chassis wire for jumpers.
Blackhole 5 in the backs of the cabinets.
All drivers Dynamatted.
Cabinets resealed.
Track Audio spikes.
Gaskets replaced with Armacell.
Cardas ccgr binding posts.
Custom (HA right - that's not a dig at you Larry. I'm commenting on what passes for my "workmanship") binding post plates.
Cardas quad eutectic solder.
All connections hard wired at the binding posts, crossover and voice coil wires... not a single quick disconnect inside.
A lot of advice, admonishments, and cajoling from too many people to name. Some of it I took, some of it I ignored. I think I did just the right amount of each.

So what can I say that I haven't already, and to someone that hasn't heard a speaker like this that wouldn't be like trying to describe sex to a virgin? I guess the best way to sum everything up is as follows...

The good: notes decay in their own space for a considerable amount of time. The sound is extremely coherent, and the imaging is off the charts. Even bass has a defined point in the sound stage. I can hear so much of the tiniest little twists, passing notes, sounds, and inflections that singers and musicians use to convey emotion and meaning that every song I play takes on a new depth of meaning. And all the layers in a recording are laid bare for my listening. And all this while not giving the impression of producing etched, or analytical, sound. The presentation is very, very alive, 3D, holographic, whatever superlative (or hyperbole) you want to use for that. Imaging is very, very stable across the entire frequency spectrum. I was a bit worried about this last, as even as recently as the end of last week, sibilant sounds would sometimes fly out to come from the speakers instead of where the singer was being imaged. That's gone away over the last 20 hours of listening, and that was the last thing that I saw as a shortcoming (and honestly, would have made me consider selling them, even at a big loss). The sound is just on the warm side of neutral, and response seems quite even. I'll know for sure when I get around to doing some response tests later. But all total, it seemed to take more like 350 hours for the upgrades to fully settle in, rather than the 300 most said it would. Or else my logging was way off, which is also possible.

The bad: These speakers, and the system as a whole, do not forgive. If the source is bad, or there are mistakes in the recording, it's very obvious now. If the singer or musician is out of tune in the slightest, you can't miss it. On newer material, if there's a trace of autotune, you hear it. You can even hear quite often where they overdubbed a mistake during a session. If the performance was technically brilliant, but emotionally sterile, that comes through as well. And if the singer was recorded with one effects mix, and other parts are recorded and/or mixed down with a different effects mix, that, too, is very, very obvious now.

I still think I might upgrade my large inductors as some point. I might even go with upgraded inductors for the low pass section, given DK's results. Though if I do, I'll most likely stick with the same gauge and values everywhere, as I like the bass exactly the way it is now. If there's a lot of bass on the record, it comes through. If the recording doesn't have a lot of low end, the speakers don't try to add any. In summation, I think I've taken several steps closer to the absolute sound.

And I've already figured out my next, immediate, step, which will be to put some better speaker cables in there. After that, I don't know. Where ever the rabbit hole takes me, I guess.

drumminman

Congratulations Quad! That's alot of work.

What are you driving them with?

quadzilla

A pair of 45 wpc pp tube amps.

headrott

Are those the Aural Thrills tube amps? Never heard them, but he makes pretty nice IC cables. I have a pair of Air silver XLR's, a pair of silver RCA IC's, and a pair of copper IC's. All are very good. Not as good as MIT Shotgun S3's, but the Aural Thrill are 1/4 the price too and are about 85% of the MIT's. Great price to sound ratio!

Greg