My 2.3 TL rebuild - so close it hurts
Comments
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Finishing the other SDA and stereo harnesses and getting the anti-resonance doohickeys installed ended up taking up the entire rest of the evening. I tried 5 different adhesives before I found something that would stick even a little to those little ****. I don't know what they're made of, but they're impervious to pretty much everything, including solvent-based rubber glue. They should make hazmat suits out of this stuff. If I could figure out a way to coat myself in it, I'd be impervious to everything, including tactical thermonuclear devices, short of maybe a 20 mm depleted uranium round at point blank range. At any rate, I'm too tired to post pictures. Will do it tomorrow.
And if I wake up and even one of them is laying on the bottom of the cabinet, I may eat a bullet for breakfast.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Pics of those doohickeys ?
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West Systems marine epoxy.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Posted a link earlier, but here it is again. http://www.partsconnexion.com/product8802.html
F1, 3M spray adhesive seems to be holding them. And I'm about to tin the rest of the harness leads. While my solder pot heats up, I'll install the black hole.
And here's pics.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
The black hole is installed. You can't see it very well in these pictures, but I decided to just lay strips behind the drivers and tweeters. I didn't fill in behind the corner braces, but can go back if I decide I want to. Or, to the guys that have done this, is it recommended that it be filled side to side?
All that's left is to fab the new binding post plates, then final assembly can start.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
I wouldn't put in any more then you have already. This is one tweak I wish you would have waited to do after at least 300 hours of run time the only reason I say this is it's one tweak one can appreciate after its installed. Not that you won't appreciate it but you will know what it did for the clarity and depth of the highs.
Remember to much of a good thing can be a bad thing. -
I definitely hear you. If I really had my way, I'd only be changing one thing at a time. If there's something I don't like, figuring out what caused it is going to be a monster because I've changed so much all at once. But time is limited, and this weekend is probably going to be the only real spare time I have for a good while.
Another question, any consensus on whether the polyfill should go back in too? I'm thinking yes.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Oh I understand why you want to do it all at one time as I did the same thing with the info I had at that time. But as time went forward and I tweaked in the BH5/Sonic Barrier, Duland Resistors, and the Solen Inductors I have been able to hear what each step has givin me and for that alone what I learned was worth the time and effort it took to get this far.
When I get the time to make my crossovers external I plan to incorporate a couple MR caps for the highs in the mix but as it stands right now my speakers sound very smooth and sweet.
Enjoy, and don't be surprised when you fire them up if you don't like the sound or you expected more out of them give them time to really smooth out. -
3M spray adhesive seems to be holding them.
Ah, good to know.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Got the new binding post plates cut. The most generous thing I can say about them is that they're more round than square. I'll put up a pic once I get the hardware mounted, but first, it's off to home depot for a stepped drill bit set.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Ah, good to know.
We'll see how long that holds (har har i made a punny) true. I'll have to check them again in a few weeks or a month, or if I hear an explained "thump" come from the speakers. Then I'll give that epoxy a shot.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Can you post a pic of the "anti-resonance doohickies" and how you are attaching them to the crossovover boards? Interested to see how you are doing it.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Got one binding post plate made. Turned out better than I feared, not as good as I hoped. Probably should have made a jig, but that would take even longer. And I'm thinking to that to really do it right, I need better tools than I have. This is all free handing and eyeballing.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Can you post a pic of the "anti-resonance doohickies" and how you are attaching them to the crossovover boards? Interested to see how you are doing it.
Greg
They go in the speaker corners, not on the crossovers There's a picture of one up there ^Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the acrylic plates you are going to put the crossovers on.:redface: Anyway, can you post a pic of these with the crossovers on them?
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Greg,
Here is my thread on how I did mine with the lexan..
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?122119-My-SDA-CRS-Upgrade-Thread -
Here's the finished binding post plates. I'm not happy... but they'll work. These are going to have to be remade though. They look like some guy just free handed them in a couple of hours :cheesygrin: I do like the clear with the armaflex behind them. Sort of retro-tech.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Greg,
Here is my thread on how I did mine with the lexan..
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?122119-My-SDA-CRS-Upgrade-Thread
yeah, this is where I got the idea from.
Anyway, I'll put up a picture of mine as soon as they're reassembled. I have to solder in the leads for the inputs, then it's on to final assembly. Yay! They will live tonight.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
OK, now I'm pissed. I was putting everything back together after finding a bad 8 uf cap and fixing that, when I stripped a screw from Larry's rings. I was trying to get that back out when I slipped and put a largish hole into a MW10. So.... yeah. On the one hand, I sort of hear them. On the other, how do I get one of those effing screws back out after the head strips? Guess I'll go get a set of screw extractors in the morning and pull a MW10 from my CRSes to get me by for now, but man, I'm really seriously pissed. And did I mention I'm pissed? Because I'm pissed. Also, I need an original MW10.
Also, for headrott, here's a pic of the crossover where you can see the acrylic I put under the crossover along with other assorted pics, including a pic of what made me nearly have a heart attack when I got it all hooked up and got no sound out of either speaker, along with the bad cap. The lead is broken where it goes into the cap itself, though that's hard to tell from the pic.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Well, as bad as my "mishap" (read that as a combination of being high on soldering fumes, impatience, and being very, very tired) was last night, and the ensuing anger and despair, today is just about as great as last night was bad. Pulled an MW6510 from the SDA 1Cs I have laying around and got that installed, got a set of screw removers (hey, great invention that, should have picked one up sooner) and fixed the several stripped button head screws, and everything is together and sounding just marvelous now.
Couple of things I found. Someone mentioned earlier that swapping the wiring harness was likely to decrease the bass. Oh, no, my friend. These things now produce huge amounts of deep, tight, textured bass. I think the speakers are going to have to come out from their previous 6" from the rear wall to about a foot, foot and a half because there's actually a bit too much low bass. It almost sounds like a single 4 octave parametric EQ band centered on 20-25 Hz and given about 10 db of boost. The highs though are both smoother and have much greater clarity and extension. I'll touch on these bits more later. As far as those button head screws, they have a spiffy tendency to somehow strip in a way that will let you remove them once. Then when you start to put them back in, because hey, if they came out they're not stripped (right?), they'll go almost all the way, then strip completely. At that point, if you don't have a screw remover, you're screwed, because because there's no unscrewing the screw that screwed you. Also, don't use more than about 2-3 lbs of torque on the cap head screws (with larry's rings) and the RDO-198, or the screw will pull right through the hole with a very sudden "pop". Oops. Gorilla strength for the fail, again. That does seem to be plenty though, as my "push test" says that I'm getting almost 4 seconds of hang time before the mid-woofs return to their original position.
And whoever called it on the 30 ft of cable per cabinet to do new harnesses was danged close. I did a rough guesstimate and came up with about the same, a bit less, so I ordered 60 ft. I have a couple of scraps left that, together, won't make a foot. In fact, I had to shorten the leads from the binding posts to the crossover a bit to be able to get those done at all. I'd originally planned it such that I'd be able to lay the crossover board on the bottom of the cabinet if I needed to work on it. Yeah, not now.
Probably the most important lesson I learned is that I need to learn to walk away from projects like this when things start going badly. Just walk away for a bit, collect myself, and then come back and solve whatever problem I ran into. I do it all the time in technology, but when I get on things like this I get a kind of tunnel vision, and my brain just keeps repeating "Must. Finish. Now!" Stupid brain. Sometimes, I hate you, I hate you soooo hard.
So listening... yeah, these are not the same speakers. Not even close. Just an example; I listened to The Vince Guaraldi Trio's A Boy Named Charlie Brown sound track on SACD. Transients are huge now. The strike of the hammer on the piano strings was so clear. And I don't mean just the initial strike. I'm talking about being able to actually hear the sound of the felt hammer striking the strings as it's own sound, distinct and apart from the initial transient of the piano string itself. And the bassist's plucks on his upright had an amazing sharpness. As far as fine detail? The drummers brush work was so clear I felt like if he would just pause a moment, I'd be able to count the bristles on his brushes.
I also gave No Doubt's Rock Steady a listen. This is my favorite album by them. Well recorded, lots of different things happening in every song, and it really shows off the SDA effect. It was just more of the same. I noticed an awful lot of little sounds that I've never heard before, even from my headphones, which aren't exactly crap (B&W P5s). Bass was huge, and SDA effect sounds that had, before, come from near the front of the room now come from beside me, or even behind me.
And that bass? It has direction now! It's no longer just an amorphous "there's a bass player somewhere back there". I mean the bass has a very distinct direction and placement in the sound stage now.
Now, for the funnny... When I finally got all the stripped screws fixed and and got things back together and hooked up, at first, the system didn't have a lot of bass. It was quality bass, but just not a lot. As I starting listening closer, I realized one speaker, the right, wasn't producing any bass. Or mids, for that matter. First thought: effing great, now what's broke? I was about to start pulling things back apart again, even though the right speaker had been fine last night (bad cap was in the left), when I thought "let me check the speaker cables". Now, my cables have been a sort of shotgun configuration and I used jumpers at the speakers to bridge between the high and low sections. I got some extra spades to try switching to a biwire configuration just to play with that. That, and all the jumpers I found that I liked were north of 500 bucks, so that's going to have to wait. Point is, one of the wires had broken at the amp, so only the tweeter section was getting power. And that explains why the first tracks I listened to sounded just weird. Couldn't place it at first though, as the imaging wasn't off a lot. It was just weird. So, that's fixed now.... I really think my next upgrade will be speaker cables. This isn't the first time a wire has broken on these at one end or the other. In fact, it seems like I'm re-terminating these stupid things at least every other month. They're nice cables and all, and not very spendy, but apparently, they don't tolerate being touched well. Not well, at all. And if this keeps up much longer, they're going to be too short to reach from the amp to the speakers in about another 6 months or so.
But I really do need another original MW6510 if anyone has one they can spare. I have good credit, and I'm sure arranging a second mortgage won't be an issue. Also, I have daughters, if you prefer that.
For now, I've got Mozart's Landerische Tanze/Country Dances / Divertimento No. 7 /Symphonie No. 17 u.a./ and others on, and it just went through a very nice pipe organ section. Veruh, veruh, niiiice. Almost made me cry man tears.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
The bass your experiencing should tame a little and become more accurate after time 200-300hrs.
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Thanks Larry.
Also, a bit of follow up to my previous post, since I never found this. Maybe search skill fail, or I don't know. Any way, don't use the button cap screws on your drivers. They go on the tweeters. Cap heads go on the drivers. Learn from my fail.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Thanks Larry.
Also, a bit of follow up to my previous post, since I never found this. Maybe search skill fail, or I don't know. Any way, don't use the button cap screws on your drivers. They go on the tweeters. Cap heads go on the drivers. Learn from my fail.
The ones for the tweeters are oval head phillips screws.
Really enjoying your posts Quad. I'm getting ready to do seal my cabs, install a little BH, etc."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
Hmmm... don't think so. Larry didn't ship anything like that. Only button (rounded) and cap (taller and almost square from the side) screws. Besides, I don't even know how an oval screw would work?Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Oval head refers to the profile of the head of the screw. I took one of the original tweeter mounting screws to an ACE hardware and found a match, and that's what it was called.
Haven't used Larry's rings so I don't know what he shipped."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
Ah, yes, ok. We're talking past either other. The original screws are called oval head. But I was talking about the screws that ship with Larry's rings. Which aren't. Called oval head, that is. If you want more, I got a whole bag full of 'em now. You can have them. Otherwise, I'll probably have to invent some new fastener hardware based martial art, where you imbed these screws into... things. And by things, I mean people.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Enjoyed reading your journey of trials, tribulations and ultimately, triumph. Congrats.SDA SRS 2.3TL's
Silk Audio MS-90-BT integrated tube amp
Yaqin MS-20L integrated tube amp
SDA 2B TL's -
Yes, it's been a heckuva ride, but ultimately more than worth it.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Quick follow up, I found where the extra bass was coming from. I've got some setting turned on in my CD player that I forgot about. When I clicked the "pure audio" button, nearly all the extra bass went away. So I need to hook a monitor up to it and figure out what I have turned on.
The whole reason I got to looking at that was the first few things I listened to were on CD. But today I had some time to warm up the phono stage and start listening to some vinyl, and I noticed there, the system sounded a lot more neutral, and then I started digging. What I don't understand is why it wasn't more obvious before the upgrade. That setting has been there for at least the last 6 months when I moved the DV 79Ai from the living room HT into the 2 channel room. I always thought the bass sounded a little off on CD, but not that much. Well, any way, I'm glad I figured that part out.
On a separate not, a friend dropped by for a bit tonight to hear the upgrades. He's not really a 2 channel guy, or even that much of an audio guy. In fact, I installed his first HT setup maybe 3 months ago. But he brought up the way instruments and singers had definite placement in the sound stage, with some things in front of others, had a short discussion about why SDAs are no longer manufactured, etc. It made me smile. And after about an hour of listening, we started planning a 2 channel room for him. I know his wife, and she's an awful lot like my wife. He'll be able to do it. I haven't really explained about the rabbit hole yet though. Hey, can't give it all away up front. :biggrin:
I got the big spikes in today. They are the same height as the wheels that were on there, but since they actually penetrate the carpet and padding, the speaker ended up about a 1/2" lower. But as I went to put them on, I found out that the dingle berry that put the wheels on took the mounts for the spikes out. And not very gently, either. Well, I'd already planned on having new end caps made, so I got some 1/4-20 5/16" t-nuts and the spikes are set up now. I think I need a longer t-nut, or else t-nuts aren't what goes there. I haven't been able to find what's supposed to be installed there as a spike mount. Might give polk CS a shout tomorrow and see if they still have that written down any where.
And now, obligatory pics of spikes.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Got a set of the spikes that F1 suggested in http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?127648-Looking-for-high-end-stands-or-spikes. I like them. The original spikes were, indeed, a bit too tall. They were the same height as what was there, but these lower the tweeters almost 2 inches, and it made a big difference in the top end detail. I'd post a picture, but the speakers just look like they're sitting on the carpet now.
As far as burn in, the new bits are coming up on 20 hours, and detail levels are improving nicely. The speakers are insanely dynamic now. The bottom is gaining texture and tightening up even more, while the highs are starting to open up a bit. The mids are quite full and detailed at this point, and I just expect it to get even better over the next couple hundred hours. I really do think the Deuland Cast resistors and the Claritycap ESAs compliment each other perfectly.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: Aural Thrills
Digital: Pioneer DV-79ai
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified