Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

plastic_avatar · March 2023

Every live song, so far, has really been a treat, @heiney9. I can totally believe SDA is best at that.

I get the piano, too. Best piano so far from my lists is on Come Sail Away. It's sharp and precise, but in other songs... I can hear what you describe.

I'll keep an ear out for things.

So far, the worst song through the 1C is Prince's Kiss.

Prince loved his drum machines. There's an electronic, distorted 'bwuahhhhp' beat throughout the whole song. It sounds like a blown speaker when it hits. I tried CD and then WiiM streaming Amazon and Spotify; all the same. Swapped speakers left to right; all the same. Awful. Unlistenable because of it =(

When I was using my HTR as a pre, I had a similar problem with yhe drum machines on the Purple Rain soundtrack. They sounded so artificial it was unbearable. The Parasound gave it a sound that makes it enjoyable again. It's an artificial drum, yes, but now it sounds like it fits. But that beat on Kiss? Too terrible to listen to =(

dpowell · March 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

I never put them on stands. I keep thinking about it, because of floor obstacles.

The center tv stand is ahead of the speaker plane. I can't do anything about that for the near future.

Got it, my bad. There are too many data points and proposed ideas in this thread to possibly keep track of. 😉

skipshot12 · March 2023

Will have to have a listen to come sail away

xschop · March 2023

I only have two SDA build threads bookmarked here at the CCP. This being one of them, due to the sheer tenacity and ballz-out work ethic to get it done, irregardless of physical and social obstacles.

Props Steven.

plastic_avatar · March 2023

dpowell wrote: »

There are too many data points and proposed ideas in this thread to possibly keep track of. 😉

You ain’t wrong.

This thing needs a persistent table of contents:

Prologue
Intro - Evaluation
Chapter 1 - Dismantling
Chapter 2 - All the ideas, everywhere at once
Chapter 3 - Summarized critiques
Chapter 4 - Crossovers and left field musings
Chapter 5 - Summarized critiques part II
Chapter 6 - Tweetering on the Edge, from Wuhan with Love
Chapter 7 - T. McGee and the Case of the Chrome Pasties
Chapter 8 - INCOMING!
[explosions and fire]
Ch p er 9 Su m r z d cr t qu s part Iii
[sounds of people dying, much wailing and gnashing of teeth, howls of despair, like something out of Dante’s Inferno]
Chapter 10 - Hotdogs!

Then it really should be split into Book 2, because it’s better to have 2 volumes when they’re different enough

Maybe 2 books and a hotdog supplemental.

Or, if we edited it to just relevant updates... it'd easily be 75% smaller

But I’m honestly happy to have food knowledge as part of this.

Next tests before dac purchase:

- felting or somesuch between mids and tweeters, thinking of DK's remarks on sound w/ plugs on his CRS

- still might raise the 1C up about a foot to clear some obstacles in the room.... it worked for the Monitor 12

Need:

- some homemade sound traps/diffusers on my right wall

I might:

- compare different tweeter plate designs, because I've got those cooked-up, too

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Time for an overdue update.

Changes to listening space

- Replaced tv stand with a shallower, more transparent rack. I may put foam on it to soften reflections. Center imaging is stronger now.

- Relocated guitar amp and removed subwoofer to reduce things that interfere, making area more symmetrical.

- Moved speakers from 7 inches away from front wall to 2.75 inches from front wall. Bass improved, not bloated (but I can hear where corner traps will help tighten it up), no change to depth (which I wish was better, more on why later).

- Put 1C on 'risers' to put in line with the M12 and 5(B) on stands. I prefer the sound with the tweets/mids of the big boxes a lot higher than stock. Much better sounding soundstage. Not as much sound getting caught in the furniture (the coffee table can be moved and all the ships, too, for hardcore listening).

- Put more high-frequency panels on right wall to balance the diffusion effect of the shelves on the left wall. Made a big difference in balance.

State of the 1C

- Wuhans, top and bottom. New tweeter plates up top based on that 3D screenshot in previous post^. The Daytons are in the 5(B). Once I get at least a pair of 194, I'll compare. Right now, The Daytons were really good in either position- a little too twinkly on at least a couple of songs in the upper position, but those might've been because of the recording. I like them better than Wuhans in the lower position.

- Still burning in the caps. I listen to songs X-Y&Z over and over, switching between songs.

- A lot of songs are totally unenjoyable. Very sad. I blame it, after trying the 5(B), on either the SDA and/or clarity of system- depends on the track. I blame SDA on poorly mixed songs that sound acceptable w/o the interconnect or on the 5(B). Blame it on clarity of mix/system if it sounds awful on regardless of SDA/not and 5(B).

SDA thoughts

Most of the time, it's fantastic.

The soundstage goes from wall-to-wall (and past, and sometimes sounds go all the way forward along the walls (in line with my ears), plus some sounds feel like they're in my skull).

My biggest complaint is that defined instrumentation and voices are mostly limited to a 2ft deep shallow crescent at the front of the room. It's pretty much still what I mapped out in my drawings while evaluating the SDA effect and placement.

Everything is accurate in space along the curved plane, but there isn't as much depth as I want.

I wouldn't have that^ complaint if it wasn't for testing my newly upgraded and modded 5B.

Soundstage on 5(B) vs 1C

My 5(B) turned out great.

- The Daytons kick major butt over the SL2000, for my ears. The 2000 are in the spares box now.

- The phase plugs tighten up the mids/voices, subjectively.

- The redone crossovers make it all sound incredible.

- I'm *really* curious how a pair of L200 would sound, in comparison. I'm betting the tweeter would be a noticeable change. Maybe one day I'll be able to A/B them.

- The soundstage is crazy on these things. There are diffuse tones that extend past the outside edges of the speakers, and other over/undertones that feel like they're at my face. It's similar to SDA, but not as enveloping (on the right song).

- These little things have such an accurate and pleasing sound. Blows my mind. They don't match the 1C for that visceral presence, of course. But, wow.

The biggest difference is the depth of the soundstage.

Maybe it's because the 5(B) are so far into the room?

Yamaha kablooey. Adcom in-progress.

Both Yamaha amps are kaput. Time to sell for parts.

I have a great looking Adcom GFA-555ii ready to pick up next week.

Really excited about it

SDA-1C pair #2 are imminent, too!

I'll finally get to A/B the mods vs. stock!

And get the sweet wood-topped cabinets I wanted.

Extra excited for the package. Really appreciate the seller working with me to areange the sale (It's about 6 hours away, so I areanged a visit with a friend who's only 2 hours from the seller.)

And it has 194s, so I get to test everything.

So.

More after next week!

Clipdat · August 2023

How long did it take you to perfectly stage that photo?

plastic_avatar · August 2023

@[Deleted User] Nope, you didn't miss anything. Just forgot to explain.

Blue noodle = Doing some tests to see if I can replicate/recognize the effect DK said he experienced w/ his speakers and phase plugs.

I'm not noticing a subjective negative without a divider (compared to imaging of 5(B) with or w/o plugs, for example), but I think I prefer the pictured orientation over none. Still a lot of listening/adjusting to do, after I establish a new baseline with the replacement amp. AND further comparisons with virgin mids are coming.

Stage = That's how it looks from my seat- with that left rug I'm waiting to put down all out of place so I can swap wires.

I like symmetry and having things laid out just right.

I mean, why wouldn't I have the NX-01 next to the 1701, close to proportionally correct?

And then the 1701 to the 1701-D the same way?

Balance. I like it.

ChrisD06 · August 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

A lot of songs are totally unenjoyable. Very sad. I blame it, after trying the 5(B), on either the SDA and/or clarity of system- depends on the track. I blame SDA on poorly mixed songs that sound acceptable w/o the interconnect or on the 5(B). Blame it on clarity of mix/system if it sounds awful on regardless of SDA/not and 5(B).

One thing I noticed after upgrading my 5JR+ were that songs actually sounded unlistenable if the mixing was poor. I was listening to some Rammstein songs from their album Sehnsucht and the midrange was so prominent and yet muddy that it gave me a headache after some time (maybe it was from my neck spazm but I'll blame the song)

plastic_avatar · August 2023

@ChrisD06

I have purposefully not listened to anything off of Sehnsucht yet =( Nor any Eisbrecher and the like.

Unleash the Archers (and I love their last 2 albums dearly) sounds like hot garbage =[

AC/DC? Solid. Back in Black? Wonderful.

ChrisD06 · August 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

@ChrisD06

I have purposefully not listened to anything off of Sehnsucht yet =( Nor any Eisbrecher and the like.

Unleash the Archers (and I love their last 2 albums dearly) sounds like hot garbage =[

AC/DC? Solid. Back in Black? Wonderful.

AC/DC sounds great on any speaker if you crank the volume up high enough LOL.

I will say, Metallica songs weren't mastered the best but they actually sound phenomenal on my M5JR+ which I find odd.

Definitely don't miss the midrange on the RT series after using the Monitors for music. The warm detailed vocals are great.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Alrighty, I'll give Justice and Master a try next week

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Next week, after I rearrange my room...

...it'll be time for a face-off!

Super excited.

And the seller was such a nice person. Glad to meet another tall Dad who likes music

He'll mail me the spikes; left them at home. No biggie. I didn't know it came with spikes!

Man, these are so much prettier than mine. Fantastic condition, too.

Will probably 'washer' the tweets and likely print some new plates using the fancy new printer we've got coming for a side business.

I can't wait to compare all the parts!

plastic_avatar · August 2023

I didn't realize the exterior of this model is just the black one, but with top/bottom caps, a nicer grille, and fabric sides glued on for looks.

Crazy how much better they look than stock.

It's like they're another speaker.

F1nut · August 2023

Stock? No, the version without end caps is the Studio.

Nicer grill? The grill frame and cloth are made of the same material on both versions.

Fabric sides? Yeah, yours are peeling off.

skipshot12 · August 2023

That Adcom should do a great job with your Polk's.

Many years back I was torn between Adcom & Phase Linear. Ended up going with Phase Linear only cause I preferred the looks.

Will be following to hear what you think.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Studio (I know) = stock, meaning the basic underpinnings without the bling.

Grilles = Sure seemed like they're longer, and the fabric is different than my others. Might be my others just have worn fabric...

Sides = Yeah. They came loose on one. No biggie, it's just glue when I get them home.

Adcom = It'll be neat to see how it sounds compared to the Yamahas

I'll have more notes on comparisons next week.

F1nut · August 2023

Yes, the grills are longer on the end cap version, but the same otherwise.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

I made it back home, after a short stay in DC with a friend, totaling let's see... 4 hours to DC, 3 hours to Delmar, 3 hours back, and 5 hours home.

Not efficient just for the goods, but worth it for the combo trip of friendship and audio

Today, at lunch, I dismantle the new 1C, in the car, so I can inspect everything and move it to the basement in parts so I don' kill myself on the stairs.

Then I can see what's what and make a plan. I have some rubric action already mapped out on the iPad...

Bonus:

Cincinnati hotdog in the news:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/dining/2023/08/16/cincinnati-chili-dog-praised-then-dissed-new-york-times/70603547007/?fbclid=IwAR0otOTea6iuaIitdcu9hfxGtRD-Ttb4-GWYTQYgRV_mjJiI7v9vBQy9-aw_aem_AVNKW4yvRoBPgDJctvmLRG9a5REnoRq5i6jLWdnHvSEA6F1jJEklm5pyEyoNaN3bhKU#llgmxmhua9rcoih9tzs

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Dismantled, in the house, ready to go downstairs.

No wonder they didn't sound great to the last owner! Stock crossovers from 1988.

The 194 bezels are deformed a bit from being screwed down.

The mids were JB-Welded..

When I start, it'll be:

- Move crossovers, terminal plates, and BH5 over.

- Install Hurricanes.

- Check to see if new wires are longer than old ones (I could use some slack before I replace with fancy in the future.

- Transfer current drivers to new cab.

- Begin deconstructionist deductive A/B'ing.

jdjohn · August 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

- Ariston Q Deck (have a Signet needle on it now, but I've got Shure and Stanton and... something else... a Grado...). Was free for helping a friend move. It sounds nice. No frills. It's the belt companion to my main DD turntable.
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/ariston/q-deck.shtml

- And my Luxman P-272, that I got out of a dumpster at the WVU Journalism School when they re-did the studio. I was so geeked, I didn't check the dumpster for more than that and the pro tripod I've used for the past 18 years... Haven't figured out which stylus works best on it.
https://audio-database.com/LUXMAN/player/pd272.html

Those turntables both have lower mass tonearms, so are best-suited for higher compliance cartridges. The Ariston Q came stock with an Ortofon OM 10, which is still available today. Of course, an OM 20, 20, or 40 would also work.

The Luxman is a real gem, and an amazing dumpster find. While doing a little research on it, I discovered that the tonearm was actually made by Micro Seiki. It called either Luxman or Micro Seiki TA-1. Again, it is a lighter arm.

You mentioned having a Signet cartridge. Signet was the high-end division of Audio Technica. Depending on the model you have, there could still be compatible replacement styluses available today from Audio Technica. AT and Signet MM cartridges are typically higher-compliance, so would be a good fit for either of those turntables.

As far as further upgrades, and along the lines of your vinyl setup, an external phonostage might provide an improvement. The phono input on the Parasound pre doesn't appear to be very sophisticated. If you happen to decide on an AT cart (or keep the Signet), they prefer a very low capacitance load.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Deleted User wrote: »

So, it’ll be a while for this then?

Ha!

Fair =P

I just listened to some tunes with the Adcom running through my 5(B).

Big improvement over the Yamahas with the Parasound pre. Slightly shocked, tbh. So I'm driven to get the room swapped around and set up asap, again.

jdjohn wrote: »

If you happen to decide on an AT cart (or keep the Signet), they prefer a very low capacitance load.

First:

Wow o.O

All of that was FANTASTIC info. THANK YOU!

Second:

I think I'll Signet it on the Luxman and see how my friend's extra Ortofon Red (if that would be the same'ish as the others???) sounds on the Ariston.

I'll have additional questions once I go back, re-read, swap, and digest all that^

Third:

I still daydream about redoing my Realistic phono pre (if for no other reason than to complete my fun Realistic receiver/turntable combo in the living room)...

But I get the feeling you might have a better suggestion that I look for to go with the main system?

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Couldn't wait to play the tweeter game with the 1C.

Here's an update on what we played with.

Current order of tweeter preference:

Wuhan
194
2000

Important variable = polyswitch jumpered, no resistor added

Reason = wanted the bump for the Wuhans because I thought it might even out the sound since the dome is heavier (anecdotal hearing results say it was a positive)

Possible apples to oranges comparison = 5(B) with Dayton sounds better in the high end and female voices than the 1C with Wuhan/194/2000.

Thoughts from oldest daughter:

- The 5(B) female voices and highs w/ Daytons sounded better than the 1C in any combination of Wuhan/194/2000. 'Smoother and and crisp, but not harsh.'

(Did not have her listen to the Daytons in the 1C rotation test today. Only have 2, but will try something another day...)

- The 194 are too prevalent as-is. Voices clearer than Wuhans, but painful and too bright.

(Resistor may tame this, yes?)

- The 194 are much clearer than the Wuhans, but the delivery is too sharp forward.

(It was so important to her, she reworded it a few times, as shown by these^ last 2 bullets.)

(I agree with all her comments.)

Ordering on payday:

Resistors!

Other variable:

@VR3's felt made an audible dent in the harsh delivery of the 194, but it didn't cure it.

I'd love to get some more made, maybe with a modded design

[end update]

F1nut · August 2023

felt made an audible dent in the harsh delivery of the 194

Laughable, they are not harsh in the least.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Do you think the culprit is the jumpered poly vacancy, or?

I didn't expect them to be so 'loud'.

It's 2 a.m., I had a migraine tonight, and I'm losing my words.

But howabout:

'That's bizarre, Steve. That's not a common complaint. Let's try to figure out why they sound that way to you and your daughter. What about...'

I'm eager for input.

I'm all ears for ideas.

The goal in this part of the project is to find out the best combination of pieces (modded and/or unmodded), so I want to figure out why the 194 sound the way they do. I'm surprised by what we hear.

Suggestions are always appreciated.

As are hotdog opinions.

F1nut · August 2023

Do you think the culprit is the jumpered poly vacancy, or?

That .5 ohm difference is rather large.

xschop · August 2023

You can still put a resistor there because you may have gotten a batch of 194's with MIC crap plastic.

You can double-check under the plastic bezels that a thin teflon ring is under the diaphragms also. Found a couple that didn't have this before and wondered if Polk added mid-production.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

194 teardown

They look like this:

Side note: 1C grilles

I wonder about the slight bevel on the interior of the Studio grille frames, under the fabric. I looked them over and it looks like:

- The wood is rounded along the edge under the cloth on the studio.

- The grille wood is about 1/3 thinner on the Real Wood version.

- There's that extra brace separating the tweeter section, too.

- Fabric does seem the same. The Studios I have are just really dirty and worn.

F1nut · August 2023

The frames and cloth are the same material on both. Geesh!!!

skipshot12 · August 2023

xschop wrote: »

You can still put a resistor there because you may have gotten a batch of 194's with MIC crap plastic.

You can double-check under the plastic bezels that a thin teflon ring is under the diaphragms also. Found a couple that didn't have this before and wondered if Polk added mid-production.

One thing about this hobby is one size doesn’t fit all.

Regarding the resistor to replace the poly switch…. I/we, wife & I, found that we preferred no resistor. Three values up to the .5 ohm were tried.
This only pertains to my SDA SRS version 3 with blade/blade.

Now, this may be the sound we prefer from the speakers we’re coming from and have rotated in and out of our system over the past 2 decades.
Most recently that would be Legacy-Audio Focus, Infinity Kappa 9’s and Infinity’s Prelude MTS.

There is no this and only this is it for each person.
That’s why trial and error is so much fun.
Sometimes it’s the trip along the way and not the final destination…..

Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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