Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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I made it back home, after a short stay in DC with a friend, totaling let's see... 4 hours to DC, 3 hours to Delmar, 3 hours back, and 5 hours home.

Not efficient just for the goods, but worth it for the combo trip of friendship and audio

Today, at lunch, I dismantle the new 1C, in the car, so I can inspect everything and move it to the basement in parts so I don' kill myself on the stairs.

Then I can see what's what and make a plan. I have some rubric action already mapped out on the iPad...

Bonus:

Cincinnati hotdog in the news:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/dining/2023/08/16/cincinnati-chili-dog-praised-then-dissed-new-york-times/70603547007/?fbclid=IwAR0otOTea6iuaIitdcu9hfxGtRD-Ttb4-GWYTQYgRV_mjJiI7v9vBQy9-aw_aem_AVNKW4yvRoBPgDJctvmLRG9a5REnoRq5i6jLWdnHvSEA6F1jJEklm5pyEyoNaN3bhKU#llgmxmhua9rcoih9tzs

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Dismantled, in the house, ready to go downstairs.

No wonder they didn't sound great to the last owner! Stock crossovers from 1988.

The 194 bezels are deformed a bit from being screwed down.

The mids were JB-Welded..

When I start, it'll be:

- Move crossovers, terminal plates, and BH5 over.

- Install Hurricanes.

- Check to see if new wires are longer than old ones (I could use some slack before I replace with fancy in the future.

- Transfer current drivers to new cab.

- Begin deconstructionist deductive A/B'ing.

bcwsrt

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Next week, after I rearrange my room...

...it'll be time for a face-off!

…

So, it’ll be a while for this then?

jdjohn

plastic_avatar wrote: »

- Ariston Q Deck (have a Signet needle on it now, but I've got Shure and Stanton and... something else... a Grado...). Was free for helping a friend move. It sounds nice. No frills. It's the belt companion to my main DD turntable.
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/ariston/q-deck.shtml

- And my Luxman P-272, that I got out of a dumpster at the WVU Journalism School when they re-did the studio. I was so geeked, I didn't check the dumpster for more than that and the pro tripod I've used for the past 18 years... Haven't figured out which stylus works best on it.
https://audio-database.com/LUXMAN/player/pd272.html

Those turntables both have lower mass tonearms, so are best-suited for higher compliance cartridges. The Ariston Q came stock with an Ortofon OM 10, which is still available today. Of course, an OM 20, 20, or 40 would also work.

The Luxman is a real gem, and an amazing dumpster find. While doing a little research on it, I discovered that the tonearm was actually made by Micro Seiki. It called either Luxman or Micro Seiki TA-1. Again, it is a lighter arm.

You mentioned having a Signet cartridge. Signet was the high-end division of Audio Technica. Depending on the model you have, there could still be compatible replacement styluses available today from Audio Technica. AT and Signet MM cartridges are typically higher-compliance, so would be a good fit for either of those turntables.

As far as further upgrades, and along the lines of your vinyl setup, an external phonostage might provide an improvement. The phono input on the Parasound pre doesn't appear to be very sophisticated. If you happen to decide on an AT cart (or keep the Signet), they prefer a very low capacitance load.

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bcwsrt wrote: »

So, it’ll be a while for this then?

Ha!

Fair =P

I just listened to some tunes with the Adcom running through my 5(B).

Big improvement over the Yamahas with the Parasound pre. Slightly shocked, tbh. So I'm driven to get the room swapped around and set up asap, again.

jdjohn wrote: »

If you happen to decide on an AT cart (or keep the Signet), they prefer a very low capacitance load.

First:

Wow o.O

All of that was FANTASTIC info. THANK YOU!

Second:

I think I'll Signet it on the Luxman and see how my friend's extra Ortofon Red (if that would be the same'ish as the others???) sounds on the Ariston.

I'll have additional questions once I go back, re-read, swap, and digest all that^

Third:

I still daydream about redoing my Realistic phono pre (if for no other reason than to complete my fun Realistic receiver/turntable combo in the living room)...

But I get the feeling you might have a better suggestion that I look for to go with the main system?

plastic_avatar

Couldn't wait to play the tweeter game with the 1C.

Here's an update on what we played with.

Current order of tweeter preference:

Wuhan
194
2000

Important variable = polyswitch jumpered, no resistor added

Reason = wanted the bump for the Wuhans because I thought it might even out the sound since the dome is heavier (anecdotal hearing results say it was a positive)

Possible apples to oranges comparison = 5(B) with Dayton sounds better in the high end and female voices than the 1C with Wuhan/194/2000.

Thoughts from oldest daughter:

- The 5(B) female voices and highs w/ Daytons sounded better than the 1C in any combination of Wuhan/194/2000. 'Smoother and and crisp, but not harsh.'

(Did not have her listen to the Daytons in the 1C rotation test today. Only have 2, but will try something another day...)

- The 194 are too prevalent as-is. Voices clearer than Wuhans, but painful and too bright.

(Resistor may tame this, yes?)

- The 194 are much clearer than the Wuhans, but the delivery is too sharp forward.

(It was so important to her, she reworded it a few times, as shown by these^ last 2 bullets.)

(I agree with all her comments.)

Ordering on payday:

Resistors!

Other variable:

@VR3's felt made an audible dent in the harsh delivery of the 194, but it didn't cure it.

I'd love to get some more made, maybe with a modded design

[end update]

F1nut

felt made an audible dent in the harsh delivery of the 194

Laughable, they are not harsh in the least.

plastic_avatar

Do you think the culprit is the jumpered poly vacancy, or?

I didn't expect them to be so 'loud'.

It's 2 a.m., I had a migraine tonight, and I'm losing my words.

But howabout:

'That's bizarre, Steve. That's not a common complaint. Let's try to figure out why they sound that way to you and your daughter. What about...'

I'm eager for input.

I'm all ears for ideas.

The goal in this part of the project is to find out the best combination of pieces (modded and/or unmodded), so I want to figure out why the 194 sound the way they do. I'm surprised by what we hear.

Suggestions are always appreciated.

As are hotdog opinions.

F1nut

Do you think the culprit is the jumpered poly vacancy, or?

That .5 ohm difference is rather large.

xschop

You can still put a resistor there because you may have gotten a batch of 194's with MIC crap plastic.

You can double-check under the plastic bezels that a thin teflon ring is under the diaphragms also. Found a couple that didn't have this before and wondered if Polk added mid-production.

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194 teardown

They look like this:




Side note: 1C grilles

I wonder about the slight bevel on the interior of the Studio grille frames, under the fabric. I looked them over and it looks like:

- The wood is rounded along the edge under the cloth on the studio.

- The grille wood is about 1/3 thinner on the Real Wood version.

- There's that extra brace separating the tweeter section, too.

- Fabric does seem the same. The Studios I have are just really dirty and worn.

F1nut

The frames and cloth are the same material on both. Geesh!!!

skipshot12

xschop wrote: »

You can still put a resistor there because you may have gotten a batch of 194's with MIC crap plastic.

You can double-check under the plastic bezels that a thin teflon ring is under the diaphragms also. Found a couple that didn't have this before and wondered if Polk added mid-production.

One thing about this hobby is one size doesn’t fit all.

Regarding the resistor to replace the poly switch…. I/we, wife & I, found that we preferred no resistor. Three values up to the .5 ohm were tried.
This only pertains to my SDA SRS version 3 with blade/blade.

Now, this may be the sound we prefer from the speakers we’re coming from and have rotated in and out of our system over the past 2 decades.
Most recently that would be Legacy-Audio Focus, Infinity Kappa 9’s and Infinity’s Prelude MTS.

There is no this and only this is it for each person.
That’s why trial and error is so much fun.
Sometimes it’s the trip along the way and not the final destination…..

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skipshot12 wrote: »

One thing about this hobby is one size doesn’t fit all...

...There is no this and only this is it for each person.

That’s why trial and error is so much fun.
Sometimes it’s the trip along the way and not the final destination…..

Sometimes, I read something that changes my day. Thank you

Tweeter swap report Part 2

Swapped the Daytons in the 5(B) to the top slot in the 1C, and those 194 over to the 5(B).

Thoughts:

- The 5(B) now have that high frequency pain that seems brittle and too prevalent.

- The 1C, I think, and I'll get Kira's impression in a bit, sound better with the Dayton high and the 194 low than the other combinations. No pain, but my tinnitus is roaring after relistening to the 1C with all 194 and then the 5(B) with the 194 =(

I'm looking forward to the resistor test, skip. Good to know your experience!

jdjohn

"plastic_avatar wrote:

All of that was FANTASTIC info. THANK YOU!

Second:

I think I'll Signet it on the Luxman and see how my friend's extra Ortofon Red (if that would be the same'ish as the others???) sounds on the Ariston.

I'll have additional questions once I go back, re-read, swap, and digest all that^

Happy to help. I assume you mean a 2M Red. The 2M series is different than the OM series. Many folks are disappointed with the 2M Red (too sibilant)...I'm in that camp. I enjoy the AT house.

plastic_avatar wrote:

Third:
I still daydream about redoing my Realistic phono pre (if for no other reason than to complete my fun Realistic receiver/turntable combo in the living room)...

But I get the feeling you might have a better suggestion that I look for to go with the main system?

I might I might even have one available.

plastic_avatar

Played 90 minutes of mysic to test tweeters tonight before bed at 75db.

That was fun

https://youtu.be/V1nnkx4F5M8

@jdjohn

Red = sibilant, yes!

Good to know. He bought a blue, though we made the red listenable on his system with EQ. That was a pain.

Styluses:

I wonder if I should sell my others? I never use the Shure n97xe and a spare Stanton... I forget the model.

I ought to sell my Realistic Lab-400 and keep the Ariston, probably, but the Lab goes with my Realistic receiver =\

I should get my needle models so you can tell me what would go with the Dual I put in my console (and what's matches the Lab)...

jdjohn

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Styluses:

I wonder if I should sell my others? I never use the Shure n97xe and a spare Stanton... I forget the model.

I ought to sell my Realistic Lab-400 and keep the Ariston, probably, but the Lab goes with my Realistic receiver =\

I should get my needle models so you can tell me what would go with the Dual I put in my console (and what's matches the Lab)...

I'm personally not a fan of the Shure M97xE (too warmish for my taste), but JICO makes a replacement stylus that supposedly brightens it up a bit. Definitely check the model on that Stanton...some of those are quite good.

Tough call on the Realistic Lab-400. It has a more adaptable arm than the Ariston, I think.

What's the Dual model?

plastic_avatar

(Back to turntable sidebar soon.)

State of the Room

Turning it upside down!

Dialing in placement is different using the long wall.

Room is about 15ft wide and 30ft long, with a 1.5ft ledge along one long side.

Previous orientation was:

4ft between speakers, 3ft from wall and ledge, and 8.5 feet from center of either speaker to center chair.

New orientation is:

7.5ft between speakers, 10'ish'ft from side walls, and 11.5 from center of either speaker to center chair.

Changes:

- I lost some corner bass reinforcement.

- Imaging past speakers only on recordings with strong stereo mixes.

- Sound feels more... open? Airy?

Had to run tests from behind my work machine, off to the side. Rugs not down, still trying to tweak speaker placement =\

Any tips on 1C placement outside the Polk manual welcome.

Annnnd the 555 + Parasound pre + E50 + 1C sounds great, even waaaaay off to the side behind a monitor

https://youtu.be/JiAVbPYhvjE?si=9RdnZA1k6q2iTBqA

I still like the Dayton/194 combo best for the tweeters, so far. 2 more Daytons coming for the 5(B), so I'll try double Daytons in a couple of weeks.

heiney9

Comparing 45 year old cross over parts in the 1C's you just bought to modded updated cross over parts in your 5B's and then making comments about the different tweets is silly.

Why not wait until the 1C crossovers are brought up to the same standard as the other speakers you are comparing when trying to evaluate the different tweets?

Your comparisons and such are so haphazard and since there seems to be no "control" aspect of your comparisons they are pretty much meaningless.

Saying one (tweeter) is better than the other before leveling the playing field so to speak is a waste of time and posting space, IMO.

H9

heiney9

EDIT above 35 year......not 45 year...same idea though

H9

plastic_avatar

@heiney9 I think I was misunderstood.

I took the tweeters out of the new-old pair and put them in my upgraded pair.

I only tried the new-old ones as-was to make sure things worked after I got them home.

There was never an in-room nor direct comparison between the new-old pair and either the modded 1C or 5(B).

plastic_avatar

Oh, quick follow-up:

This may not have been clear, but I dismantled the new-old pair to move downstairs, get the sides fixed where the fabric got pulled during transit, then I'll start a comparison between modded/unmodded parts then.

Swapping in the 194 to the modded 1C was me being excited that I finally got a set to compare.

AND, that's the easiest swap for a comparison taste test before I move parts over, a group at a time.

Here's the schedule:

- fix new cabs
- remount new-old drivers
- bring upgraded crossover over

***test a stock 1C with upgraded crossover using same songs/methodology as in original tests (plus some basic room/speaker measurements)

- swap in Wuhans, test
- swap in Daytons, test
- try different combinations, test

- swap out stereo drivers for plugged, test
- put stock drivers back in, swap out SDA drivers for plugged, test
- try different combinations, test

Then, depending, try different tweeter setups/combos w/ the best mid layout, if I feel like it's necessary.

Lastly, I'll put in BH5, then rings.

And that's my off-the-top-of-my-head from my notes that're down in the basement approximation of what I have planned once the room is back together.

I hope that helps clear things up.

Haphazard isn't the word I'd use.

heiney9

No offense but your trials and exploits are hard to follow. But as long as your having fun then it doesn't matter if it makes sense to most of the rest of us.

Sounds like the Adcom was in good condition. I always preferred the Adcom over Yamaha. Never heard a Yamaha amp that floated my boat. I guess my bias goes back to the day when I was in audio sales in the late 80's early 90's. We tried to compare an Adcom 535 (60wpc but huge reserves) against the 200 wpc Yamaha (I want to say M80 rated at 250wpc). We used power hungry 4 ohm ADS L1590.

The Yammy fell on it face, sounded very strained vs the Adcom which was a real champ at higher levels. The Yammy did play a bit louder but it started to distort long before it should have considering the factory rating (which obviously wasn't true). The little Adcom had its limits of course, but it clipped with much less drama and played with better clarity and control. The Yammy should have played much louder considering the factory rating.

On paper it shouldn't even have been a contest. The Adcom was underrated the Yammy was overrated by the manufacturer. After that, I never heard a (vintage) Yammy I cared for. But lots of Yamaha fans out there, so it's just my experience and opinion.

H9

The 535 has dual transformers (one for each channel) making it a very capable and great sounding amp.

plastic_avatar

In a perfect world, this thread would be 2/3 shorter and easier to follow

I try to cover my bases- when I can.

Adcom vs Yamaha

I've heard a lot of Yamahas since my first listen in 1983 (that experience was life-changing).

Little did I know, what I thought was neutral sound was... ummmm... dull =\

To my ears.

Every upgrade to my thrifty system is an eye-opener.

The GFA-555ii blows every sub-$1000 thrifty Yamaha I've tried/heard to bits. It's immediately noticeable, the difference in punch and definition. It's nuts. And continues to be a very rewarding experience as upgrades happen.

The Adcom drives the 1C sooooo much better.

I'm out on the difference for the 5(B) until I listen more. I don't know that the difference is as stark.

xschop

plastic_avatar wrote: »

(Back to turntable sidebar soon.)

State of the Room

Turning it upside down!

Dialing in placement is different using the long wall.

Room is about 15ft wide and 30ft long, with a 1.5ft ledge along one long side.

Previous orientation was:

4ft between speakers, 3ft from wall and ledge, and 8.5 feet from center of either speaker to center chair.

New orientation is:

7.5ft between speakers, 10'ish'ft from side walls, and 11.5 from center of either speaker to center chair.

Changes:

- I lost some corner bass reinforcement.

- Imaging past speakers only on recordings with strong stereo mixes.

- Sound feels more... open? Airy?

Had to run tests from behind my work machine, off to the side. Rugs not down, still trying to tweak speaker placement =\

Any tips on 1C placement outside the Polk manual welcome.

Annnnd the 555 + Parasound pre + E50 + 1C sounds great, even waaaaay off to the side behind a monitor

https://youtu.be/JiAVbPYhvjE?si=9RdnZA1k6q2iTBqA

I still like the Dayton/194 combo best for the tweeters, so far. 2 more Daytons coming for the 5(B), so I'll try double Daytons in a couple of weeks.

Looking forward to your full-Dayton review.
My wife said to leave them in the 8TL's. I couldn't argue with her (I'm only allowed to argue audio-related subject matter lol)

plastic_avatar

Won't be able to run all 4 slots as Daytons for a real, documented, listening comparison for a bit. Keeping the 2nd pair in the 5(B) right now.

Will print a revised tweeter plates based on what I used on the 5(B). Better bevel on the throat, and tighter mount on the back.

I did print out my revised 1C reversed crossover holder. Much better.

xschop

Those look like anodized billet.

plastic_avatar

This new printer is amazing.

Gardenstater

I thought it was a solid modeling laser printed picture LOL. Looks great! Resin printer would be better than this?

plastic_avatar

Oh, guys!

I test printed a tweeter plate vertically (old printer couldn't manage it). Everything about the tweeter plate is better (except one small part of the throat edge). I'll post images later, once I get the finish dialed in.

Resin prints would be a lot smoother, but not nearly as durable.

If I zoom in and get an inch away, you can see the lines on the crossover bracket:



But farther out? I all blends together. Example:



This was printed as a draft. Layer height of .28mm

Detailed prints are between .02 and .08mm. It could look even better, but I didn't think it was necessary.