Can anyone confirm that the current run LSiM speakers are using the same drivers and especially crossovers that the originals shipped with?
I seem to remember some info on here that the newer ones had some parts swapped for cheaper ones.
Would help explain some of the price slashing.
The pricing has always been due to eliminating multiple hands in the delivery of the product to market. Once a company gets as big as Polk, the infrastructure has to be in place to deliver which adds cost. On the flip side, the scale of manufacturing offsets some of these costs. Now people are getting the benefit of scale and no infrastructure.
By infrastructure do you mean customer service? Cause sound United is saving a boatload of cash there 😝
Living Room 2.1: Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkii; Martin Logan Grotto sub; Musical Fidelity A308; Marantz SA 14S1; Sony UBP-x1000es Game Room HT: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology SM450; Definitive Technology LCR2000; Definitive Technology StudioMonitor350; Mirage Nanasats; Sub - HSU VTF-2 MK5 Master Bedroom
Cambridge Azur 551r; Definitive Technology promonitor 800; ACI Titan Subwoofer
So... it's not my place to be doing legal research for, umm, Sound United but the post by @vcwatkins got me to thinkin' about the Legend moniker.
There's this other loudspeaker manufacturer who refers (or, at least, referred) to their brand as A Legend in Sound.
They even have had a Legend Series of loudspeakers.
Is there any trademark infringement issue kind of thing goin' on, here?
Just... you know... musing.
I muse, therefore I am.
I don't see a problem Mark. Legend is a common word as is Monster, as is Reference. Now if they had duplicated "Legend in Sound", then there would be a problem.
Unless you are illiterate, You should know the difference between Polk Legend and Klipsch Legend.
Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 ch. 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony Bravia KDL-40R510C TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, SVS NSD-12 SB12 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers
The pricing has always been due to eliminating multiple hands in the delivery of the product to market. Once a company gets as big as Polk, the infrastructure has to be in place to deliver which adds cost. On the flip side, the scale of manufacturing offsets some of these costs. Now people are getting the benefit of scale and no infrastructure.
This speaker line was basically never available at dealers/retailers and had VERY limited distribution channels from the start, mainly online.
That has not changed with most of the prices you’re seeing. The biggest factor seems to be that Polk needs to unload the massive financial anchor of their inventory of the LSiM line and just forget about making any kind of profit on them. Clearly Polk is contracting places like Adorama to basically be a clearance house for them.
But I’m still curious if the newer LSiM speakers are built the same as the original production runs.
Living room:
Samsung PN50B860 50" Plasma : XBOX One : Roku Ultra : Oppo UDP-203 : Pioneer Elite SC-87 : APC H15 : Focal 806V mains : Focal 806V Surrounds : SVS SB2000 : SVS SB12-NSD
2Ch:
Sonus Faber Venere S : Rotel RB 1582 MKII : Oppo UDP-205 : Furman Elite 15 DM i : Pro-Ject Debut Carbon with Acryl-It Platter :
Looks like a bunch of NP electrolytics in that Focal XO.
The air core conductors in the Alpine XO are pretty cheesy. The ones in the Focal are better, but still nothin' special. The capacitor in the middle of the Alpine XO looks like perhaps a Bennic(?), and there are definitely NP electrolytics to the left and below it; cannot tell about the one on the far right.
Looks like a bunch of NP electrolytics in that Focal XO.
The air core conductors in the Alpine XO are pretty cheesy. The ones in the Focal are better, but still nothin' special. The capacitor in the middle of the Alpine XO looks like perhaps a Bennic(?), and there are definitely NP electrolytics to the left and below it; cannot tell about the one on the far right.
NP electrolytics -- we're talkin' 50 cent capacitors (retail).
So... I must be missin' something?
Remember, its all relative. This is car audio. In the tough car audio environment, the adjustment ability of these passive crossovers is more rare than common. Its the sum of all parts as both of these are good performing 3-way speakers systems. Both are good looking and could be featured in show systems. The Focal is crazy expensive....and I don't know the details of the electrolytics, but there looks to be some poly in there as well.
Anyway, the point was made that the Elac had a better crossover. Then I indicated that may be true but that does not take away from the fact that Polk does a good job with their crossovers. The older car audio SR line and the home audio LSiM line both measure pretty well. Again its the sum of all parts.
I purposely compared the above well performing car audio systems to the Polk SR crossover as it holds its own. Polk used 1% resistors and 1% Mylar caps, Air core inductors, Zobel network, tweeter protection, 4 tweeter levels via a low noise jumper, all on a cast aluminum chassis. Again....Look at the white paper measurements:
The LSiM is much of the same when you look at the overall measurements of the line.
FAMILY ROOM HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000 Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
Take price, sound preference, and comparison to other speakers out of the equation. The scientist over at Polk have done a good job designing speakers and crossovers using the latest tools available. I took notice years ago with the SRS then the later the car audio SR6500 series speakers. Back then they were one of the few that offerd a white paper showing the science behind what they were offering. Their SR line could produce a pretty good response in the car which is not easy to do out of the box and takes some engineering and good components. It looks like the same engineering was used in the LSiM line.
Not the best, not the worst, but good design and crossover for the SR series, LSiM series, etc. Price to performance is up to the buyer to decide.
When we were at the old HQ for a Polkfest in, 2005 I think it was?
Anyhoo, the LCiRTS series was just getting released and they hooked up the show demo LCiRTS105's for us in the demo room at the HQ. While everyone was listening, myself and MacLeod were staring in the little windows of the speakers mounted in the wall.
Those guts had a little plate that said SR Series on it.
We asked the sales guy who's name escapes me right now if what we were seeing was true. He confirmed it and said that while the SR Series crossovers were not ideal nor the intended production equivalent, they provided the sound stage and crossover curves and points they were looking for to showcase the imaging that the original LSi in-wall speakers were capable of. Mainly because everyone thought that the ring radiator tweeters were going to be too directional and easy to localize.
The biggest difference between the SR Series and the LCiRTS crossovers were the SR Series used a 22mm (about 7/8ths inch) ring radiator tweeter vs the LCiRTS and LSi series home speakers 1" ring radiator tweeter. This caused the SR Series crossover to be a bit shouty on the larger 1" tweeters as it was truncating the lower range of the larger tweeter and was not damping the higher end peaks. Mainly because they occurred at different points on the response curve than the 22mm tweeter in the car component SR Series.
They used the SR Series crossover because the LCiRTS/LSi crossovers were not ready in time for show time.
The SR Series was, hands down, one of the best component systems ever put out on the car audio market. You don't see them come up used very often and when they do, people still want $400-$500 for them. They were $600-$700 new. You needed to upgrade to stuff like Focal Utopia to be able to at least match if not beat the performance from the SR Series. Especially when matched with one of the SR Series subs.
Expert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
No, actually -- I was 'going to' run them that way, but they'd be too far apart, I think, so I went with the "Cardas" golden ratio positioning (more or less, sort of). http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php
I do get tempted, but I'd have to move so much junk (including the pair of Altec Santiagos that actually are in the corners) that that notion has always died aborning.
4k is the retail ? Hmmm....what was retail when the LSIM's came out ? What are they selling for now. Wait a couple years and you'll get these half off at a friends and family sale. Use the other 2k for a kick arse tubed pre amp.
Or one can always take that 2k and put it on the no pass line at the crap table in Vegas.
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Looks like these were the L600 (tower) and L100 (small bookshelf) and L200 (large bookshelf). This potentially leaves a couple other spots in the lineup. Maybe there will be a larger "SDA-style" tower as the top model in the line.
4k is the retail ? Hmmm....what was retail when the LSIM's came out ? What are they selling for now. Wait a couple years and you'll get these half off at a friends and family sale. Use the other 2k for a kick arse tubed pre amp.
Or one can always take that 2k and put it on the no pass line at the crap table in Vegas.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
I just wish Polk would delve back into the realm of high end, made in America speakers again , like the SDA’s .....
Instead of Best Buy and Fry’s stuff .....
That is why my 1c’s will never leave my possession
These look like they’re made in China ...
They look cheesy ....
Too much “bling” ......
Bk
Parasound A21 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Polk SDA 1c’s ( my first love .. ) , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 42” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Yamaha wxc-50 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
PS Audio Stellar S300 , Cambridge Audio 851n , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED , Onkyo TX-RZ610 - DEN , MAIN RIG
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO
DAYENS AMPINO ( thanks Verb ! ) , KEiiD streamer ( this was only 60 bucks ?? ) , Polk atrium 8SDi’s - KID’s BEDROOM
I just wish Polk would delve back into the realm of high end, made in America speakers again , like the SDA’s .....
Instead of Best Buy and Fry’s stuff .....
That is why my 1c’s will never leave my possession
These look like they’re made in China ...
They look cheesy ....
Bk
I doubt if that will happen. High-end speakers are a specialty market, not a mass market. I think at this point the owners of Polk are only interested in the mass market; that is “Good enough”.
Lumin X1 file player
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
I have a feeling the price is what Jesse has been alluding to. They will be very reasonable, I suspect.
Huh?
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
Exactly ....
So sad ...Polk , once an icon , reduced to big box store , mid fi , good enough, speakers ....
Going for the mass market, big box store non-audiophile market ...
Trading on the time honored POLK name ....
Far cry from the 70’s - 80’s ...
I wanna see a modern day iteration of the SDA’s with high end crossovers and components like ribbon tweets and SEAS woofers , for example - like the “big boys” use ....
Something to be said for vintage quality ....
And .... I’m obviously not a audio snob .... look at my sig tag 😃
Bk
I doubt if that will happen. High-end speakers are a specialty market, not a mass market. I think at this point the owners of Polk are only interested in the mass market; that is “Good enough”. [/quote]
Parasound A21 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Polk SDA 1c’s ( my first love .. ) , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 42” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Yamaha wxc-50 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
PS Audio Stellar S300 , Cambridge Audio 851n , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED , Onkyo TX-RZ610 - DEN , MAIN RIG
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO
DAYENS AMPINO ( thanks Verb ! ) , KEiiD streamer ( this was only 60 bucks ?? ) , Polk atrium 8SDi’s - KID’s BEDROOM
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
And exactly how many here, would buy high end, modern SDA speakers? Much of the same was stated in regards to LSIM at only $4,000 and look how that turned out.
Comments
I seem to remember some info on here that the newer ones had some parts swapped for cheaper ones.
Would help explain some of the price slashing.
Samsung PN50B860 50" Plasma : XBOX One : Roku Ultra : Oppo UDP-203 : Pioneer Elite SC-87 : APC H15 : Focal 806V mains : Focal 806V Surrounds : SVS SB2000 : SVS SB12-NSD
2Ch:
Sonus Faber Venere S : Rotel RB 1582 MKII : Oppo UDP-205 : Furman Elite 15 DM i : Pro-Ject Debut Carbon with Acryl-It Platter :
By infrastructure do you mean customer service? Cause sound United is saving a boatload of cash there 😝
Game Room HT: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology SM450; Definitive Technology LCR2000; Definitive Technology StudioMonitor350; Mirage Nanasats; Sub - HSU VTF-2 MK5
Master Bedroom
Cambridge Azur 551r; Definitive Technology promonitor 800; ACI Titan Subwoofer
I don't see a problem Mark. Legend is a common word as is Monster, as is Reference. Now if they had duplicated "Legend in Sound", then there would be a problem.
Unless you are illiterate, You should know the difference between Polk Legend and Klipsch Legend.
2. JM Labs Electra 920.1; Parasound JC2 and JC5; Sony HAP-Z1ES; Marantz SA8004 SACD; Music Hall MMF7 and Acoustech phono pre; PS Audio P1000; MIT S1 Cables
3. Polk LSiM703; Anthem Pre-2L SE; Parasound A21; Sony 48" 4K TV; Wyred4Sound DAC 2; Oppo 203; Squeezebox Touch; PS Audio Power Director 4.7; MIT S3 cables
This speaker line was basically never available at dealers/retailers and had VERY limited distribution channels from the start, mainly online.
That has not changed with most of the prices you’re seeing. The biggest factor seems to be that Polk needs to unload the massive financial anchor of their inventory of the LSiM line and just forget about making any kind of profit on them. Clearly Polk is contracting places like Adorama to basically be a clearance house for them.
But I’m still curious if the newer LSiM speakers are built the same as the original production runs.
Samsung PN50B860 50" Plasma : XBOX One : Roku Ultra : Oppo UDP-203 : Pioneer Elite SC-87 : APC H15 : Focal 806V mains : Focal 806V Surrounds : SVS SB2000 : SVS SB12-NSD
2Ch:
Sonus Faber Venere S : Rotel RB 1582 MKII : Oppo UDP-205 : Furman Elite 15 DM i : Pro-Ject Debut Carbon with Acryl-It Platter :
The air core conductors in the Alpine XO are pretty cheesy. The ones in the Focal are better, but still nothin' special. The capacitor in the middle of the Alpine XO looks like perhaps a Bennic(?), and there are definitely NP electrolytics to the left and below it; cannot tell about the one on the far right.
NP electrolytics -- we're talkin' 50 cent capacitors (retail).
So... I must be missin' something?
Anyway, the point was made that the Elac had a better crossover. Then I indicated that may be true but that does not take away from the fact that Polk does a good job with their crossovers. The older car audio SR line and the home audio LSiM line both measure pretty well. Again its the sum of all parts.
I purposely compared the above well performing car audio systems to the Polk SR crossover as it holds its own. Polk used 1% resistors and 1% Mylar caps, Air core inductors, Zobel network, tweeter protection, 4 tweeter levels via a low noise jumper, all on a cast aluminum chassis. Again....Look at the white paper measurements:
The LSiM is much of the same when you look at the overall measurements of the line.
HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
Y'all carry on.
It will be interesting to see details on the innards of the new Polks, as well as measurements (impedance curves and whatnot).
When we were at the old HQ for a Polkfest in, 2005 I think it was?
Anyhoo, the LCiRTS series was just getting released and they hooked up the show demo LCiRTS105's for us in the demo room at the HQ. While everyone was listening, myself and MacLeod were staring in the little windows of the speakers mounted in the wall.
Inside that little window was the crossover guts.
http://global.polkaudio.com/en/Media/POLK/Product Catalogs/RTS Catalog-English.pdf
Those guts had a little plate that said SR Series on it.
We asked the sales guy who's name escapes me right now if what we were seeing was true. He confirmed it and said that while the SR Series crossovers were not ideal nor the intended production equivalent, they provided the sound stage and crossover curves and points they were looking for to showcase the imaging that the original LSi in-wall speakers were capable of. Mainly because everyone thought that the ring radiator tweeters were going to be too directional and easy to localize.
The biggest difference between the SR Series and the LCiRTS crossovers were the SR Series used a 22mm (about 7/8ths inch) ring radiator tweeter vs the LCiRTS and LSi series home speakers 1" ring radiator tweeter. This caused the SR Series crossover to be a bit shouty on the larger 1" tweeters as it was truncating the lower range of the larger tweeter and was not damping the higher end peaks. Mainly because they occurred at different points on the response curve than the 22mm tweeter in the car component SR Series.
They used the SR Series crossover because the LCiRTS/LSi crossovers were not ready in time for show time.
The SR Series was, hands down, one of the best component systems ever put out on the car audio market. You don't see them come up used very often and when they do, people still want $400-$500 for them. They were $600-$700 new. You needed to upgrade to stuff like Focal Utopia to be able to at least match if not beat the performance from the SR Series. Especially when matched with one of the SR Series subs.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-klipschorn-ak6-loudspeaker
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
"As an aside, the pic of the Lsim woofer (left) and the Elac woofer (right)"
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php
I do get tempted, but I'd have to move so much junk (including the pair of Altec Santiagos that actually are in the corners) that that notion has always died aborning.
Or one can always take that 2k and put it on the no pass line at the crap table in Vegas.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Is that the going price?
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
Village Idiot of Club Polk
Regardless of how it looks, if it takes the L series to another level I am in.
Just something about Polk’s. I may not be a fan of the individual components but I am a fan of how it fits together.
Cheers.
Instead of Best Buy and Fry’s stuff .....
That is why my 1c’s will never leave my possession
These look like they’re made in China ...
They look cheesy ....
Too much “bling” ......
Bk
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Yamaha wxc-50 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
PS Audio Stellar S300 , Cambridge Audio 851n , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED , Onkyo TX-RZ610 - DEN , MAIN RIG
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO
DAYENS AMPINO ( thanks Verb ! ) , KEiiD streamer ( this was only 60 bucks ?? ) , Polk atrium 8SDi’s - KID’s BEDROOM
I doubt if that will happen. High-end speakers are a specialty market, not a mass market. I think at this point the owners of Polk are only interested in the mass market; that is “Good enough”.
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Huh?
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
So sad ...Polk , once an icon , reduced to big box store , mid fi , good enough, speakers ....
Going for the mass market, big box store non-audiophile market ...
Trading on the time honored POLK name ....
Far cry from the 70’s - 80’s ...
I wanna see a modern day iteration of the SDA’s with high end crossovers and components like ribbon tweets and SEAS woofers , for example - like the “big boys” use ....
Something to be said for vintage quality ....
And .... I’m obviously not a audio snob .... look at my sig tag 😃
Bk
I doubt if that will happen. High-end speakers are a specialty market, not a mass market. I think at this point the owners of Polk are only interested in the mass market; that is “Good enough”. [/quote]
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Yamaha wxc-50 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
PS Audio Stellar S300 , Cambridge Audio 851n , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED , Onkyo TX-RZ610 - DEN , MAIN RIG
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO
DAYENS AMPINO ( thanks Verb ! ) , KEiiD streamer ( this was only 60 bucks ?? ) , Polk atrium 8SDi’s - KID’s BEDROOM
All has yet to be revealed...
Village Idiot of Club Polk
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk