12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

Kingkwas wrote: »

Just realized my install company used 16 gauge speaker wire. Thinking of replacing with 12 gauge wire. Listen to stereo and HT

Is it worth it? Will there be a difference?

Thx!

No difference,

No, thank you

H9

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Not agreeing with someone isn't a personal attack. It's my own opinion based on my own experience and other information just like you have you have yours. I'm skeptical about stuff like this that's all (and I am not the only one who is).

I would guess that maybe 90% of the forum agree with your view.
I would also guess they simply avoid posting their view, as they feel the more "Pro-cable" view is very angry and calls people names to make their point.

Some are quite eloquent and make great points.
Most want to avoid the Bickering, and just ignore the discussion.

It's like saying "strawberries taste wonderful", I read that in several magazines, my neighbor told me that. I studied the molecular make up of strawberries and it shows that they taste good because of the measured amounts of sugar, pectin and moisture.

However I've never, ever tried or even smelled a strawberry, but I can assure you based on common sense and what others have said that they taste great, better than any other fruit or berry regardless of price.

vs.

I have tried strawberries, peaches and blueberries in several different forms and recipes and I prefer blueberries. I tried to like the others but the blueberries were the clear winner based on taste, mouth feel and availability.

Scenario 1 is most cable naysayers
Scenario 2 is most cable advocates.

H9

Donner, it's all good. We all veer off the path of the original thread theme. It's all still cable related, but just not within the narrow scope of the initial thread starter.

H9

heiney9 wrote: »

It's like saying "strawberries taste wonderful", I read that in several magazines, my neighbor told me that. I studied the molecular make up of strawberries and it shows that they taste good because of the measured amounts of sugar, pectin and moisture.

However I've never, ever tried or even smelled a strawberry, but I can assure you based on common sense and what others have said that they taste great, better than any other more expensive berry.

vs.

I have tried strawberries, peaches and blueberries in several different forms and recipes and I prefer blueberries. I tried to like the others but the blueberries were the clear winner based on taste, mouth feel and availability.

Scenario 1 is most cable naysayers
Scenario 2 is most cable advocates.

H9

Not even remotely close.....

Cable advocates are unable to identify cables when unaware.
That leaves open the possibility, of bias, expectation and all that stuff.

Cable naysayers are simply pointing out something obvious.

Is it possible in your zeal to make sure you yourself aren't relying on biases that you are over compensating and making crazy, off the wall statements that are totally irrelevant?

Or do you perceive yourself to be completely bias neutral so you can speak ridiculousness as if it's some kind of scholarly postulate?

H9

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum?.

Your actions in this thread are trolling. You have stated your point of view. You are trying to convince others that you are correct by only stating that other people's PERSONAL experiensce is wrong(that can be seen as attacking them),and continue to do so. We don't care at all that you don't hear a difference in something you have zero desire to try. We do care that you see it as a personal crusade to belittle the experiences of others.

Personal experiences are wrong a lot of the time though.

This is the most ludicrous thing I think you have posted. How can you believe that? What kind of reality do you live in?

You do realize that the people and websites that align with your cable view are relating their personal experiences to you and you are relying on their personal experiences to form a point of view?

I mean.............wow, just wow.

I live in the reality, where most people realize bias, and expectations and sometimes shiny silver color or Price, or things other people told them, can INFLUENCE what they hear.

If you believe you are immune to all of these, what world are you living in?

K_M wrote: »

Personal experiences are wrong a lot of the time though.

LMAO........out of all the ridiculous comments you've made here that one takes the cake.

K_M wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Personal experiences are wrong a lot of the time though.

LMAO........out of all the ridiculous comments you've made here that one takes the cake.

Human perceptions and subjective choices are very often wrong or colored by bias or other indirect factors.

Maybe so but that has no bearing on whether or not someone can hear changes in a system. If it sounds one way and cables are changed out (no price tag included) and it sounds different (better or worse), then it does sound different.

These changes can even be seen on scopes and analyzers

heiney9 wrote: »

It reads as if these same concepts aren't applicable to her, only the people she perceives to be wrong.

I have never stated that I am bias free or that bias isn't an issue. But my stance is biases can be trained away and learn to be minimized.

She must believe that or she herself would be at the mercy of the same biases heavily influencing her decisions as well, and since heavy bias = wrong in her world she must have trained herself to minimize those biases or by her definition she'd be wrong.

H9

We all have biases etc. All.
I will agree with you about minimizing biases, but again, one one way to be sure...

Why not remove bias with an unsighted (meaning not aware of product) and really go for the gold?

I was proven wrong when I did a blind test. I was upset, mad, figured it must be wrong, but after some thinking, conceded I was simply wrong.

K_M wrote: »

Nor does anyone seem to use comparison methods that verify anything.
All the claims I see are based on sighted/biased testing methods.

Not saying that proves the claims are wrong, but it offers NO proof they are real either.

K_M wrote: »

I will make this VERY to the point, as I feel there is truly very little to this whole debate/argument.

No claim, is more than a claim to me, until it is verified.
That is NOT to insult anyone, or doubt their experience, or say they are wrong.

Simply some require more than a claim, anecdote or comparison sighted.

Proof of extraordinary claims falls to the one making the claim.
I am making no claims.

Yes, you are making the following claims:

1. You are claiming that human bias is so overwhelming and mindbending that the EFFECTS of bias cannot be removed by training.

2. You are claiming that blind testing is to ONLY way to remove the effects of bias.

3. You are claiming that the inventors of home stereo systems were wrong when they specified the methods of evaluating stereo systems should be based on training in sound localization and sound quality measurement.

You said "proof of extraordinary clams falls to the one making the claim".

Dr. Harvey Fletcher and his colleagues at Bell Laboratories, who invented home stereo systems, claimed the following:

"Critical listeners were sought in these tests because of a desire to set permanent standards. At the moment, only a small percentage of people fully appreciate high fidelity. Even less appreciate or understand stereo. However, there is a growing sophistication evidenced among users of stereo equipment. Anticipating the future, it seemed wise to avoid naive or unconcerned personnel in these tests to prevent establishing loose standards which eventually might have to be abandoned.

The listeners chosen were sophisticated in the art of sound localization either by working in this field or by education before testing. They were felt to be the equal of any serious listener who is accustomed to playing the same records many times and thus becomes familiar with the more subtle artistic and technical effects."


Citation: Harvey, F. K. and Schroeder, M. R., "Subjective Evaluation of Factors Affecting Two-Channel Stereophony", Journal of The Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 9, No. 1, January 1961, pp. 19-28.

Two principles from the field of sensory science pertain to stereo audio evaluation:

1. A thing must be tested in a manner accurately representative of the way it will be used.

2. Sensory evaluations must be conducted in a manner that does not prevent or diminish relevant sensory stimuli from reaching the subject.

References

1. Lawless, H. T. and Heymann H., "Sensory Evaluation of Food: Principles and Practices", pp. 79-100, 2010.

2. Ennis, D. M. and Mullen, K., "Theoretical Aspects of Sensory Discrimination", Chemical Senses, Vol. 11, No. 4, pp. 513–522, 1986.


Now, you @K_M, are making the extraordinary claim that the scientists who invented home stereo systems were wrong in specifying subjective tests with trained subjects. You are further making the extraordinary claim that stereophonic audio, which is multidimensional in nature, is best tested by forced choice discrimination methods, such as A/B and A/B/X.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the Bell Labs researchers were in error and that the sensory science researchers, who specified descriptive tests for multidimensional stimuli, were in error.

You continually carp about doing a blind test and finding no differences in what you evaluated. When asked to provide details of the test and how it was structured, you refused. You continually carp about people not being able to find audible differences in stereo equipment when blind tested, yet you have not posted a single credible example of a blind test that was based on evaluating stereophonic performance parameters by properly trained subjects.

ZLTFUL wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

The top ten reasons you know your discussion thread has just gone off Niagara Falls:

(This might actually be #1, but I'll get the ball rolling and start the list with #10)

#10 - When two polar opposites are unable to reverse polarity and cannot agree to disagree.

If you agree, please do feel welcome to chime in and complete this list by starting at #9. If you disagree, please feel welcome to chime in and complete this list by starting at number one. Please forgive me if I seem disagreeable, agree?

Bon chance, mon ami. Oh mon Dieu! I'm writing en Francais again. Zut alors!

Ok, to add a little grease to the skids of this comment:

#9 When F1nut actually treats someone he disagrees with with courtesy and respect instead of scorn, derision, and ridicule.

(If you are holding your breath waiting for this to happen, please do post the "I've turned blue in the face" video at YouTube for all to see. I'm not holding my breath, but I do hope this day does come).

Adding further fuel to this flaming Flamenco, We know this thread has finally gone over Niagara when:


#8 when the DarqueNight finally agrees to do a Double Blind Test and he picks the Emotiva TA-100 (integrated amp; $399) over the $5,495 Bryston B135 Cubed Stereo Integrated Power Amplifier

Don’t worry, if this does ever happen we will have Emergency Medical Techs on standby ready to revive the DarqueNight and apply CPR. All necessary precautions will be taken.

You clearly aren't aware of @DarqueKnight s credentials. So let me enlighten you. He is a professor of electrical engineering. A double PhD. And has multiple articles published. Not editorial or opinion pieces. He has tested/reviewed more equipment than most of the people on this forum will ever own. And he does it in a way that has been proven time and time again to be very objective and professional.

@K_M congratulations on continuing to deflect and avoid sharing your or your husband's professional credentials. At least Roger Russell shares his background experience to the public before making his outrageous claims. More than what you have been willing to do.
I would also like to note that you are being incredibly hypocritical. Repeatedly.
Also, Bell Labs was far more than just a telephone company. They had their thumbs in quite a lot of proverbial pies. But you would know this had you actually read any of the literature that Raife has referenced. You continue to show your own outrageous biases (see "hypocrite" referenced above).

@Gatecrasher I was not calling your baby's ugly. It was not a personal attack. I was pointing out "different strokes for different folks". Just because you can't tell a difference, does that automatically discount someone else's experiences because they are different than your own.
The sense are very individual from person to person. I will readily admit to not being able to hear as well as someone who is trained to hear better (think Navy Sonarmen, Audiologists, etc).
My reference to SRTs and Ferraris was an attempt to state this. Don't discount the 250GTO just because the newer Enzo does literally everything better. Both vehicles have their merits. It is up to the buyer to decide which meets their needs, wants, desires.
Same with audio gear. The SRTs meet your home theater needs. Personally, I think that manufacturers like JTR and Seaton design much better theater speakers. Different strokes for different folks.

I am note trying hard to believe nor am I victim of some sort of mystical zealotism. I know that the MIT cables I use now perform better with my equipment than the Audioquest cables that they replaced. I don't waste my money because my hobbies are all expensive in one way or another so I look for the best bang for my buck. For me it was used MIT cables. For Reindeer guy, it might be zip cord. For you, it may be Canare. I am not judging anyone for finding their zen.

I am judging those who **** on those who have found their zen and say it can't be so.

I am judging those that fear finding out they may be wrong.
I was quite wrong in a Blind test, made a fool out of myself. But learned something in the process.

Saying you found some magic in a wire is cool and fine, but going the next step to really make sure you did, means even more.

FYI credentials mean nothing at all in regards to the topic at hand.

We are still discussing why a claim can be made, but not backed up when not aware.

I see no explanation of why someone can hear one way looking at the wire, and hear another way when not sure what wire is being used.

Plus you asked for supporting evidence. it was given and you can't even be bothered to read it.

Why did you ask? If you weren't going to even read it?

Not even expected you'd agree with the supporting evidence, but then you could refute it. You didn't even bother to read it.

You act like you are heavily invested by your constant participation in these threads, yet you never want to look at all supporting information that you yourself asked for>

H9