12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

Unknown · April 2017

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mrloren · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi mrloren:

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way about your set-ups. What you have is more than plenty to enjoy the music and the movies and have a great listening experience. Enjoy!

oh and your not going to offer me an A21 and some kimber cable to go with it...

This hobby is all about the big dollars you can spend to get that sound. Yes there are deals on used stuff too but once again used can cost a lot, or at least a lot to me. Then I am limited to my family room for my HT, it's on a 15amp circuit so after money that is my 2nd limit.

Some spend thousands and never hit the bliss, others spend a few and get to what they like.

Unknown · April 2017

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BlueFox · April 2017

Gatecrasher wrote: »

. Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

This sentence appears to be the crux of the matter. I, and others, don't have any problem hearing a difference. Of course, that implies one has purchased something better than the current cable, taken the time to let it settle in, and actually listen to it over a period of time, and at varying time in the day and night. Then the question becomes, is the difference worth the extra money?

So, if you can't hear a difference then good for you, but don't try to drag others down to your level by assuming your ears are the gold standard, or thinking your system is the most revealing gear around. There are a lot of factors interacting here, and that might be why you are having a difficult time hearing a difference.

Gatecrasher · April 2017

BlueFox wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

. Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

This sentence appears to be the crux of the matter. I, and others, don't have any problem hearing a difference. Of course, that implies one has purchased something better than the current cable, taken the time to let it settle in, and actually listen to it over a period of time, and at varying time in the day and night. Then the question becomes, is the difference worth the extra money?

So, if you can't hear a difference then good for you, but don't try to drag others down to your level by assuming your ears are the gold standard, or thinking your system is the most revealing gear around. There are a lot of factors interacting here, and that might be why you are having a difficult time hearing a difference.

So let me see if I have this right. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is trying to "drag you down".

Let's not get overly dramatic here. It's only audio equipment. It's not like I'm telling you that you worship a false god or anything that extreme.

Can't anyone ever disagree with the bully pulpit on this forum?

You guys are really something I'll tell you.

lol

nooshinjohn · April 2017

Gatecrasher wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

. Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

This sentence appears to be the crux of the matter. I, and others, don't have any problem hearing a difference. Of course, that implies one has purchased something better than the current cable, taken the time to let it settle in, and actually listen to it over a period of time, and at varying time in the day and night. Then the question becomes, is the difference worth the extra money?

So, if you can't hear a difference then good for you, but don't try to drag others down to your level by assuming your ears are the gold standard, or thinking your system is the most revealing gear around. There are a lot of factors interacting here, and that might be why you are having a difficult time hearing a difference.

So let me see if I have this right. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is trying to "drag you down".

Let's not get overly dramatic here. It's only audio equipment. It's not like I'm telling you that you worship a false god or anything that extreme.

Can't anyone ever disagree with the bully pulpit on this forum?

You guys are really something I'll tell you.

lol

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

lightman1 · April 2017

I feel a thread kill coming on. I'll curse and post nude pics of curvy women.

lightman1 · April 2017

Look at the teats on that one!

mhardy6647 · April 2017

irrelevant post - sorry.

motorhead43026 · April 2017

I see the Sausagenator (Ken S.) deleted my shaking sausage GFI.

sgmsmg · April 2017

This is a fun read.

pitdogg2 · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Some of the wire/cable vendors I am considering are: Blue Jeans Cables, Monoprice, and Emotiva.

Of these 3 I'd advise the blue jean cables.
My company buys from monoprice exclusively. I can honestly say they have far more defective products than effective products. Of the products that are effective they have no longevity.
I know nothing about Emotiva's wire products.

Unknown · April 2017

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tonyb · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Emotiva has a similar line of cables/wire as Blue Jeans Cables, but not as full a catalog. They have a similar target audience. Both sell to buyers looking for a good value, not those looking for cut rate products. Emotiva has a loyal following of customers that have bought their amps, etc. I would expect their products to be similar in quality to Blue Jeans Cable. Part of the problem for Emotiva is that their core business is amps. Each different line of business is a new challenge. Can they walk and chew bubble gum at the same time (do other things right besides what they do best)? Blue Jeans Cable core business is wire and cables.

A successful business often is built upon repeat sales to the same customers. Those customers are prime candidates for this sales pitch, "Oh, by the way, did you know that we also sell cables that are a good value?" This would be leveraging the customer base. It costs much more to get new customers than to sell other stuff to those that have said yes already.

I would also choose BJ cables over the others mentioned, but....I wouldn't be looking for any great benefits sound wise. Build quality will be better though over Monoprice. Emo might just be buying someone elses cable and slapping their name to it, who knows. It's a practice many do in audio....and not just with cables.

"Good value" doesn't necessarily equate to good sound.....especially at those price points. Walmart is considered a good value too, but when quality is of concern, you'd go somewhere else.

The 3 companies you mentioned cater to the entry level crowd. That's the base their marketing is geared towards. Emotiva has amps, processors and dacs all for those entry level separates crowd just moving up from a receiver.

That said, many here have moved on from the entry level stuff which is why they aren't held in such high regard. Some haven't too, and that's all well and good if that fits your needs. Audio is a progression, not a black and white scenario, that we each try to accomplish at our own pace in ways we can all afford.

Most of us have that audio T-shirt, "Been there, done that". We've been in the same spot some others have just starting to explore better audio. Our purpose is not to get anyone to spend more than they are accustomed to, but to avoid the same mistakes and wasted money we all did on our own progressions in audio. Our opinions are based on decades of experiences, some different than others obviously, but we all draw on the same thing.....experience.

.....and with that said, get yourself some, experience that is. You don't even have to buy a truck load of junk to find out. Get yourself to some audio shows, Polk member get togethers, etc. Figure out what you can afford, buy used and demo stuff to save a buck. When you get dressed in the morning, hopefully you look in the mirror and assess the way you look. You do the same with the sound coming from your system and assess what you perceive as the weakest link. Then move forward and change a few things just like you'd change a tie or a belt that didn't match when you looked in the mirror. Audio doesn't need to be hard, you just have to toss out pre-conceived notions and keep an open mind, try a few things for yourself, hear a few things on others systems.

The internet is full of articles both for and against cables. I'll bet you can find articles for or against just about anything, that's the nature of the beast. There is only one opinion that counts though, and that's yours, and you can't form your own opinion unless you try a few things yourself.

tonyb · April 2017

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

K_M · April 2017

vmaxer wrote: »

Everything matters. Including cables.

except......... bias, expectations, and post purchase rationalization?

I am not sure you can have it both ways.
Everything matters, but just conveniently not the things one thinks does not matter?

K_M · April 2017

Again guys, Burden of proof lies on the one making an extraordinary claim.

"I built a rocket that can fly to the moon....."

I would think I would have to provide some proof of this right?
Not expect you guys to "prove a negative"

Thats sorta what we are dealing with.

txcoastal1 · April 2017

They test rockets, so maybe test some cables?

mrloren · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

mrloren wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi mrloren:

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way about your set-ups. What you have is more than plenty to enjoy the music and the movies and have a great listening experience. Enjoy!

oh and your not going to offer me an A21 and some kimber cable to go with it...

This hobby is all about the big dollars you can spend to get that sound. Yes there are deals on used stuff too but once again used can cost a lot, or at least a lot to me. Then I am limited to my family room for my HT, it's on a 15amp circuit so after money that is my 2nd limit.

Some spend thousands and never hit the bliss, others spend a few and get to what they like.

Hi Mrloren:

I would love to have an A21, then I would need to get this or that to go with it, then I would discover that that thing over there needs upgrading, it would start the snow-ball effect that rolls all the way down hill into the poor house. Many people into audio seem to suffer from upgrade itis (a strong, insatiable desire to, forever and a day, not be happy with what is better than 99.999% of what the people on planet earth listen to and instead to forever and a day be looking for that "other man's grass" that is always greener). Truth be told, no matter what I get and what I spend, there is always something better. Hence the $50,000 speaker cables sold at The Cable Company. I'm on a mid-fi quest and will be tickled pink to have a great sounding mid-fi system. Mid fi has improved tremendously since the early 80s and it is more affordable than then.

Basically we all need to learn to love what we already have. You should check "stereo" off of your life-accomplishments list and use the discretionary spending with discretion on other stuff. People are now putting 200 to 300 thousand miles on their cars, try to put some serious miles on the BST (blood, sweat and tears sweat equity) that you have rolled into your audio equipment. Some people seem to buy a new this or that every year and all their audio gear gets sold with the "low hours" description on it. 5 to 8 years or even longer on a nice Marantz AVR is not unreasonable.

I do like my current system, much better than it was a year ago. just a few things left on my upgrade list.

#1 new sub VTF3-MK5
#2 Oppo, will be looking for a good used 93 or 103.
#3 and this will be just a random chance. Next time Fry's has the MC80 in-ceiling speakers for $50 I would like to replace all 4 of my in-ceiling speakers.

Top it off with some minor upgrades,
change the GLS brass locking banana's for Audioquest silver
replace my very old HDMI cables for some new Audioquest cables.

K_M · April 2017

txcoastal1 wrote: »

They test rockets, so maybe test some cables?

I think the part we are all dancing around.....

Someone that expects to hear no difference may tend to hear no difference.
Someone that expects to hear a difference may tend to hear a difference.

As long as the participant is aware, the answer may tend to be right or wrong.

vmaxer · April 2017

K_M wrote: »

vmaxer wrote: »

Everything matters. Including cables.

except......... bias, expectations, and post purchase rationalization?

I am not sure you can have it both ways.
Everything matters, but just conveniently not the things one thinks does not matter?

Everything matters......

Some may matter more than others but everything matters.

I also blind test all CD's and albums I purchase, you know - to remove bias....

Can't tell if it is SRV, Clapton, BB - you know??

Gatecrasher · April 2017

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum then?

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I like the part where the guy who uses an SRT system in this day and age calls others' views into question. Home theater (and professional theaters) have come a *LONG* way since the mid 90s. It's like the 62 250GTO calling the 2014 Enzo worthless even though the Enzo will drive circles around its capabilities (See, I too can make obscure and complete inane references that have nothing to do with the topic).

Anyway, thank you for trying to protect me from "wasting" my money. I will remember to do the same the next time I see you post up about a good deal on an SRT component. I will save you from wasting your money by directing you to much more capable speakers than your antiquated SRTs. Whether you want my advice or not. After all, turnabout is fair play.

So I guess you are claiming that a difference in speaker cables isn't discernible on older Polk speakers? So in your opinion what year Polks do I need to get? Or do I need to get rid of Polk altogether and buy some other brand?

Also, I must have missed the section where I personally attacked you and said your equipment is junk.

Not agreeing with someone isn't a personal attack. It's my own opinion based on my own experience and other information just like you have you have yours. I'm skeptical about stuff like this that's all (and I am not the only one who is).

Unknown · April 2017

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txcoastal1 · April 2017

Gatecrasher wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum then?

Gate,
The problem is every new OP that asks about cables is ran off the forum listening to these debates. All we do is recommend a few cables and the the naysayers come swarming in. All we ask is try it out for themselves w/o all the bs. OP's can do there own research. Naysayers do hawk threads like these and don't deny.

F1nut · April 2017

K_M wrote: »

vmaxer wrote: »

Everything matters. Including cables.

except......... bias, expectations, and post purchase rationalization?

I am not sure you can have it both ways.
Everything matters, but just conveniently not the things one thinks does not matter?

Those right there are extraordinary claims. Burden of proof is on you.

F1nut · April 2017

tonyb wrote: »

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

Of course not. There wasn't a single one that signed up for the MIT cable demos either.

heiney9 · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

Hi Tony:

Maybe some that have not responded are happy with their sound and find it difficult to spend $700 on a pair of speaker wires. For many folks, especially young people with families, there is plenty of competition for the limited discretionary dollar. That $700 could also be spent on an oppo disc player and 5 or 6 blu ray discs, or one could take their sweetheart out for a nice weekend get a way.

For some couples, one is into audio and the other is not. The speaker wires then would provide yet another chance to quarrel over money. Maybe the guy just got out of the dog house with his wife and he says to himself, "Should I bring up the $700 speaker wires again?" And discretion then becomes the better part of valor and he puts his sword away and sues for peace with a nice box of chocolates, a dozen roses, and a night on the town. If he keeps this good behavior up for a few months and banks all of these roll over minutes, just then and only then he can strike at his wife's soft underbelly and say, "Honey, those designer speaker cables would just look lovely in our living room." With the right strategy, all things are possible.

I'm retired, disabled, and housebound and $700 is about three or four months of savings. I would rather buy the oppo than the speaker wires. My 15 year DVD player just died and a Blu Ray disc player is on my shopping list. I'm about two to three years away from buying such speaker wires. There are many life reasons why people do not pop for $700 speaker wires.

Perhaps if I go to the Indian Casino near my home and steal from their one arm bandit.... I then can visit Shangri-la and also get the speaker cables. BTW, the phonetic spelling of Shangri-la is: Ha Why EEEEE!

It doesn't cost $700 to demo the cables. If you can't/don't want to spend the money why are you here debating whether cables matter or not?

H9

heiney9 · April 2017

F1nut wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

Of course not. There wasn't a single one that signed up for the MIT cable demos either.

I would think this would be the perfect opportunity for the naysayers to set up their double blind testing and school all of us that know cables matter.

I guess they're to obfuscated to even realize when a golden opportunity arises to really bolster their POV..........

..............oh wait, they are just parroting and have ZERO interest in actually trying anything on their own to form their own opinion.

Typical

H9

Gatecrasher · April 2017

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Gate,
The problem is every new OP that asks about cables is ran off the forum listening to these debates. All we do is recommend a few cables and the the naysayers come swarming in. All we ask is try it out for themselves w/o all the bs. OP's can do there own research. Naysayers do hawk threads like these and don't deny.

The OP asked if he would be able to hear a difference between the 16 gauge wires he is currently using and a new set of 12 gauge wires. This thread had been diverged into the realm of other more expensive wires long before I chimed in.

If you read my posts you'd see that have tried some different wires. Just like you I strive for the best sound. I have a real nice set of Monster M series bi-wire speaker cables that were over $500 and Monster M series subwoofer cables that were expensive too (although they weren't $5,000). A few years ago I posted the Canare wires I fabbed for my rears that were a few hundred bucks too.

All of them are real-nice and the quality is superior to plain audio cables but I didn't really hear any difference. Maybe ZLTFUL is right? With my crappy old Polks I won't be able to hear a difference? Maybe it takes really expensive brand-new speakers?

Actually I think he was just being mean. I don't know why other than maybe it was late and he was tired and just threw it out there?

Right now I am using Monster MC 12 gauge cable. Nothing fancy other than the larger gauge. My more expensive wires are sitting in the closet. I did a comparison a few months ago in stereo mode to see if I could really hear a difference and couldn't.

That's all I'm claiming. I have yet to try $5,000 cables.

As for the OP's original question? I doubt he'll really be able to tell a difference between his 16 gauge wires and 12 gauge unless maybe he is using some big power over long runs.

From my own experience that would be my expectation. I normally wouldn't expect a lot of difference but I may be wrong. There are some other variables involved as others have noted such as all 16 gauge and 12 gauge wires are not created equal. He may have crappy 16 gauge wires and by switching to good 12 gauge he might experience an improvement.

heiney9 · April 2017

Monster Z is as bad as the generic stuff you get at all these places. I initially used that for the SDA connection cable years ago. I've since used Canare and it was a noticeable improvement.

I got the Monster for free so it's not like I had any ideas about it costing me more therefore it has to sound better. The main reason I replaced it was the green oxidation running 6-8" from the ends under the clear sheath. Figured that can't be good. This was probably about 9-10 years ago.

H9

12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

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