Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,685
    edited October 2009
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    TroyD wrote: »
    Hey Dan!

    I'm doing pretty well, thanks for asking.

    It's amazing how things that you once were so passionate about...over time, well, you point of view, perspectives change.


    I did and still do think that wire makes a difference, that there are sonic differences...and all that. Did then, do now.

    I also believe that it is up to the individual to make those judgements for themselves...there are too many variables.

    Same thing for the companies....sure, it's easy to say that this set of cables is insanely priced....however, there is more at play than what the manufacturer cost is. Advertising, marketing, R&D, economies of scale...and the price of exclusiveity...again, there are WAY too many variables for one person to make a blanket statement.

    My system is good, running Quad 988's, restored/modded Heathkit W5-M amps, Melos pre, modded Sony SCD-555ES SACD player, VPI Scoutmaster turntable. MIT cabling....I'm quite happy with it.

    Glad to hear things are well with you, as for liv4fam...as you might guess, I still wouldn't piss in his pocket if his nuts were on fire. ;)

    BDT
    I agree with you on the way to many variables for someone to make a blanket statement. Personally I have my own opinions, from what I have seen and learned over the years. I personally will not waste my money on really expensive(to me) wire. I still have a fetish with wire , I think I always will.

    Your system sounds like it would be fun to listen to. We once a year have a swap sale where we invite audiophiles from everywhere to come in trade , buy sell demo just have a really good weekend with us. You would really love it. We bring in so many different older gear it's not even funny. We had a few pairs of Quads and I think they all sold that weekend. We also have DQ10's which reminded me of you. They sold as well. Fussy speakers they where very placement sensitive but when we got them right, they sounded great. I heard them many years ago but they where old and in bad shape. This pair was mint.

    Liv4fam can be an **** but so can we all. he is truly a good guy and a wealth of knowledge and deep experience. He does systems that I even have trouble wrapping my head around. he does the biggest baddest Crestron jobs. It's pretty sick his designs. I'd take up drinking if I had to design on a regular basis the system he puts together. I bet if you met him in person , you 2 would hit it off.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,124
    edited October 2009
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    I like my rig (sitting in front of it now)....all Stereophile Class A/B gear...I'm pretty much maxed out in terms of upgrades at my income level. I've got no real desire to change anything. I'm pretty much off the swapping bandwagon....

    That said, I could go back to a pair of DQ-10s and be happy (the DQ20's make my pants go crazy)....stupid hobby.

    Hey, you never know...might take you up on it!

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • bigaudiofanatic
    bigaudiofanatic Posts: 4,415
    edited October 2009
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    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Come to my house Bob with your inexpensive cables and we'll A/B them with my MITs and see if you can hear the difference.

    I would not mind going and having a listen.

    I think that the thicker the cable the less resistance the signal has to flow to the speaker. But might I say that once you get to the speaker you still have to go threw what the speaker has for wire. I think it ends at 10 gauge wire and maybe something a bit nicer than monster. That is just how I see it.
    HT setup
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    MIT Exp 3 Speaker Wire
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    Living Room
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited October 2009
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    I wonder if Bob is still reading this thread?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,475
    edited October 2009
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    Bob probably got wise and ran away from all the stupidity.
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  • everpress
    everpress Posts: 862
    edited October 2009
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    Sigh... being somewhat new... I thought I'd bring some gasoline and ask what you guys think of the fire... But seriously, what do you guys think of this:

    http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

    ? Harmon Kardon AVR 55 (dead; replacing with Onkyo TX NR-616)
    ? Polk RTA 11TL's (FR and FL)
    ? Polk TSi200's (RR and RL)
    ? Polk CS10 (Center)
    ? Polk PSW-350
    ? Grado SR-60i Headphones
    ? Fii0 E5 headphone amp
    ? iPod touch (8 gig)
    ? iPod Classic (80 gig)
    ? Mac Mini (as media server)
    ? xbox 360
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  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited October 2009
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    xcapri79 wrote: »
    Mantis you are a voice of reason. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

    Ohms Law is the voice of reason.

    E=IR
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,365
    edited October 2009
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    everpress wrote: »
    Sigh... being somewhat new... I thought I'd bring some gasoline and ask what you guys think of the fire... But seriously, what do you guys think of this:

    http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html
    You obviously have not read this thread.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • everpress
    everpress Posts: 862
    edited October 2009
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    You obviously have not read this thread.
    deleted....

    Read through page 10... I've had enough.

    Now I have to go sell my kidney for some speaker cable... Anyone want to buy some scrap CAT5?

    ? Harmon Kardon AVR 55 (dead; replacing with Onkyo TX NR-616)
    ? Polk RTA 11TL's (FR and FL)
    ? Polk TSi200's (RR and RL)
    ? Polk CS10 (Center)
    ? Polk PSW-350
    ? Grado SR-60i Headphones
    ? Fii0 E5 headphone amp
    ? iPod touch (8 gig)
    ? iPod Classic (80 gig)
    ? Mac Mini (as media server)
    ? xbox 360
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,365
    edited October 2009
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    It's all in there. All of the facts, all of the links, everything you would ever want or need to know about your question.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 9,401
    edited October 2009
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    bumps.jpg
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,502
    edited October 2009
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    "Not everything that can be counted counts,

    . . . and not everything that counts can be measured."

    Albert Einstein
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
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    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
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  • Lowell_M
    Lowell_M Posts: 1,660
    edited October 2009
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    xcapri79 wrote: »
    That is true. But I believe he was referring to the quantum mechanics world of the physicist and not the everyday real world of you and I.

    Einstein was always impressed that many of his theories could be confirmed by measurement. The bending of light by the gravitational pull of the sun is one example.

    Quantum mechanics is the foundation of the every day world of you and I.

    It has been said a million times on the forum, but I felt like upping my post count by 1...

    Most people who are in this hobby for the reason of a quest for the ultimate reproduction (and enjoyment) of audio understand that there is no measurement system for the understanding of the human perception of sound.
    HT
    RTi70 mains
    CSi30 center
    RTi28 Rears
    Velodyne CHT-12
    H/K AVR-247
    ADCOM GFA-7000
    Samsung PN58B860
    Playstation 3
    2-Channel
    Polk Audio LSi15's
    Rotel RCD-1072
    Nakamichi CA-5 Pre
    ADCOM GFA-555
    Signal Cable Analog II IC's
    Signal Ultra Bi-Wire Speaker Cables
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  • sTiLlLeArNiNg
    sTiLlLeArNiNg Posts: 805
    edited October 2009
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    SCompRacer wrote: »
    bumps.jpg

    finally some GOOD info getting into the thread! :D

    yummeh yummeh ta ta's :)
    Media Room 7.1
    Sharp lc37d64u | Sanus vmsab-03 | Sonax ZX8680 | Yamaha htr-6290b | Emotiva xpa1 x 2 & xpa5 | RTiA 9 & 7 | CSiA 6 | FXiA 6 | Sanus NF30B-03 | Velodyne dls-3750r | Dual 505-3 m97xe | Monster avs2000/hts5100

    HTPC
    Intel e5300 | Asus p5q DLX | LG ch08 BD | OCZ 4g reaper2 | WD 1TB | Sapphire 4890 VaporX 1g | Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 | OCZ modXtreme 700w | Antec Fusion remote MAX

    A fool and his money are easily parted
    I don't drink Koolaid

    Need some cable's? Just ask :)
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  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited October 2009
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    xcapri79 wrote: »
    Quantum mechanics explains the sub-atomic that concerns nuclear physics. Yes is it a foundation, but we don't really notice quantum effects until we get into the sub-atomic world. This doesn't apply to audio measurements.

    This is true. You don't need quantum mechanics to explain the electrical characteristics of audio frequencies. Just as you don't need quantum mechanics to explain a cars HP or things falling off buildings.

    I know this is an over simplifiaction, but you do need quantum mechanics to explain mother nature when things get very small, sub-atomic, or when things move close to the speed of light.

    Almost everything we encounter in everyday life doesn't need quantum mechanics to explain or predict it's behaiver.

    Except maybe this forum. And that is a joke.

    Please forgive my spelling.
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  • sTiLlLeArNiNg
    sTiLlLeArNiNg Posts: 805
    edited October 2009
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    IMO in one way or another physic's applies to everything in life, even though i don' understand most of it i know it's there lol

    I could not see myself scavenging cat5 cable and spending hour's upon hour's stripping + braiding to make a set of cable's. I'd much rather buy a decent 4 conductor wire and go from there. :o

    One question that's been floating around my head for some time is: is it really better to not use a connector on the end's of a speaker wire? If yes would it be feasible to "tin" the end's with some lead free 4% silver solder?

    Right now i have some Rocketfish cable that was included with my speaker purchase from Futuresh1t and i run bare wire on both end's but i'd like to get better cable's and i am hesitant to "terminate" the end's as 1) it add's cost and 2) can possibly add resistance?

    Thought's?
    Media Room 7.1
    Sharp lc37d64u | Sanus vmsab-03 | Sonax ZX8680 | Yamaha htr-6290b | Emotiva xpa1 x 2 & xpa5 | RTiA 9 & 7 | CSiA 6 | FXiA 6 | Sanus NF30B-03 | Velodyne dls-3750r | Dual 505-3 m97xe | Monster avs2000/hts5100

    HTPC
    Intel e5300 | Asus p5q DLX | LG ch08 BD | OCZ 4g reaper2 | WD 1TB | Sapphire 4890 VaporX 1g | Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 | OCZ modXtreme 700w | Antec Fusion remote MAX

    A fool and his money are easily parted
    I don't drink Koolaid

    Need some cable's? Just ask :)
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  • Lowell_M
    Lowell_M Posts: 1,660
    edited October 2009
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    xcapri79 wrote: »
    Quantum mechanics explains the sub-atomic that concerns nuclear physics. Yes is it a foundation, but we don't really notice quantum effects until we get into the sub-atomic world. This doesn't apply to audio measurements.

    Yes... thank you for the clarification (my B.S. is in Physics). I think you may have taken my comment a little too seriously.

    Point is... Measuring what is actually meaningful in the human listening experience related to how a conductor between an amp and a speaker carries the signal may not be possible and would be very difficult to prove if it were possible. There is far more going on than a 3 variable equation... or even a simple wave mechanics problem.
    HT
    RTi70 mains
    CSi30 center
    RTi28 Rears
    Velodyne CHT-12
    H/K AVR-247
    ADCOM GFA-7000
    Samsung PN58B860
    Playstation 3
    2-Channel
    Polk Audio LSi15's
    Rotel RCD-1072
    Nakamichi CA-5 Pre
    ADCOM GFA-555
    Signal Cable Analog II IC's
    Signal Ultra Bi-Wire Speaker Cables
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,502
    edited October 2009
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    xcapri79 wrote: »
    That is true. But I believe he was referring to the quantum mechanics world of the physicist and not the everyday real world of you and I.

    Einstein was always impressed that many of his theories could be confirmed by measurement. The bending of light by the gravitational pull of the sun is one example.

    Upon re-reading it, I guess my Einstein quote could be taken either way.

    My point always is, you need to LISTEN for yourself as different people and different systems have differing needs.

    I'm personally convinced many high-priced wires transmit harmonics to the drivers that are beyond the human hearing spectrum, but contribute positively to the overall listening experience.

    In that sense the performance can be quantitatively measured by a scientist electronically, and argued to be better based on those numbers, and priced accordingly. Qualitatively, various people will or won't hear those differences.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
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  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited October 2009
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    sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »
    If yes would it be feasible to "tin" the end's with some lead free 4% silver solder?

    can possibly add resistance?

    Thought's?

    By "tin" I assume you mean solder the ends of the speaker wire.

    I have found that you will get a potentally lower resistance connection soldering the endings of the speaker wire because the solder is soft and will conform to the speaker connection when screwed down better than plain wire. The increased contact area will slightly lower the contact resistance. This lower contact resistance may not be audable however. However, the wire is much easier to get into the hole in the speaker terminal after it is soldered.

    Hope my spelling didn't offend you.
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  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited October 2009
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    inspiredsports wrote: »
    .

    I'm personally convinced many high-priced wires transmit harmonics to the drivers that are beyond the human hearing spectrum, but contribute positively to the overall listening experience.

    QUOTE]

    If the transmitted harmonics are beyond the hearing spectrum how can they contribute in any way to the listening experience?
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,502
    edited October 2009
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    bikezappa wrote: »
    . . If the transmitted harmonics are beyond the hearing spectrum how can they contribute in any way to the listening experience?

    Here are a couple of questions I would ask:

    1) Are ears the only receptors on/in a human body capable of detecting the presence of varying sound waves (sound pressure levels) around it?

    2) Are varying sound waves (sound pressure levels) the only component of sound/music?

    If you really want to explore, here's a start

    - http://www.sound-thinking.org/index.php?showtopic=2630
    - http://www.sound-thinking.org/index.php?showtopic=3666
    - http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/loudspeaker_as_musical_instrument
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 52,406
    edited October 2009
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    mantis wrote: »
    It's funny and I feel bad for some but you can only show them the path , you can't walk it for them.

    I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to follow your path.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2009
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    inspiredsports wrote: »
    I'm personally convinced many high-priced wires transmit harmonics to the drivers that are beyond the human hearing spectrum, but contribute positively to the overall listening experience.

    In that sense the performance can be quantitatively measured by a scientist electronically, and argued to be better based on those numbers, and priced accordingly. Qualitatively, various people will or won't hear those differences.

    Excellent thought!
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,685
    edited October 2009
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    F1nut wrote: »
    I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to follow your path.

    My path is that bad? Yours is so much better? enlighten me
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 52,406
    edited October 2009
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    I'm not the one proclaiming that I have a path to follow.
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  • Knucklehead
    Knucklehead Posts: 3,602
    edited October 2009
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    mantis wrote: »
    It happens every single day. Guys walk around looking for the sound they want in there system and are not getting it due to the poor quality of speakers they own. Poor placement. Poor calibration. Poor wire management. I could go on and on here. And it's not like they have poor quality speakers , it's they are asking more out of them then they aare capable of. There are sonic limits to all speakers and trying to get high end sound of a pair of RT series speakers is just not going to happen no matter what MIT wire you have or Sunfire amp you power them with. Lsi's have there limits although they benefit from higher end amps and other gear. You get more out of them because they offer more. It's simple really.

    I have been watching people on this forum make mistake after mistake trying to get to a level of sonic perfection with so so speakers. Buying amps and separates , high end wire and all kinds of crazy things when the problem lays elsewhere.

    I'm not hating on anyone's gear , I'm just point out that maybe the better sound you are looking for doesn't rest in MIT wires or that beautiful Sunfire monster amp. Maybe if you have a higher quality speaker and a good placement , you just might find what your ears are telling you to get. It's funny and I feel bad for some but you can only show them the path , you can't walk it for them.

    End Rant. Carry on.

    In my case, its about the money....I squeeze all I can out of what I have.
    Polk Audio Surround Bar 360
    Mirage PS-12
    LG BDP-550
    Motorola HD FIOS DVR
    Panasonic 42" Plasma
    XBOX 360[/SIZE]

    Office stuff

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    Life is one grand, sweet song, so start the music. ~Ronald Reagan
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  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited October 2009
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    sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »
    finally some GOOD info getting into the thread! :D

    yummeh yummeh ta ta's :)

    Nice. What's a wonderful view to see. Who needs 1080p !
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  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited October 2009
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    Knucklehead wrote: »
    In my case, its about the money....I squeeze all I can out of what I have.

    Please enlighten me not in term of fancy laws of physics and electronics, I am an old caveman but really love hi-end audio. I own a pair of Martin Logan Sl3, should I drive them with a Carver amps or a Krell amps ? Or amp is just an amp that function is only to amplify the input signal? I really like to hear from your actual experiment not some spec or data print out. Sincerely, Andrew Doan.
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  • Knucklehead
    Knucklehead Posts: 3,602
    edited October 2009
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    Wtf?
    Polk Audio Surround Bar 360
    Mirage PS-12
    LG BDP-550
    Motorola HD FIOS DVR
    Panasonic 42" Plasma
    XBOX 360[/SIZE]

    Office stuff

    Allied 395 receiver
    Pioneer CDP PD-M430
    RT8t's & Wharfedale Diamond II's[/SIZE]

    Life is one grand, sweet song, so start the music. ~Ronald Reagan
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  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited October 2009
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    Knucklehead wrote: »
    Wtf?

    WTF? Not too nice . My fault. Must be another Knucklehead from AVS forum.
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