Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

TECHNOKID

mantis wrote: »

People need to make money I get that. Denon is good enough to fight for there right in there price classes. I don't think they lead the way but they are respectable and most can follow. It's an amount of money you pay to have such quality or better. I get that.
Wire???? come on man I have Installed 36k wire from Transparent in a 250k system. The speaker wire was 6 feet. Thats a lot of money for a conductor. The whole system was out of this world but hey the guy who purchased it money meant nothing to him. It was all about what he wanted and he was stopping at nothing to have the best audio system money could buy. It sounded incredible and It was audio at the level of perfection but the system was of higher quality then the recording studio that records the music. I think it was over the line of perfection recreating replay system.

So my words are this once again. Once you achieve the goal , you can't make it any better. You have to get the signal from A to B thats it. I know it's not as simple as that and everyone wants to own nice fancy wire but guys trust me when I tell you, there is a limit to no gain. I learned this the hard way.

Buy high quality cables and make sure they are terminated correctly , pass spec. Make sure you use the proper length to gauge speaker wire and don't allow interference. Buy good quality is really all I can tell anyone to do. Don't go to home depot to buy your speaker wire and IC's. You can but at your own risk. They do have some wire that will work and work well. Just be careful.

Know the limits of your speakers and don't buy wire that exceeds them to much. There is no benefit from running 12g wire to small speakers. NONE. 16 gauge to 14 gauge is all you need unless your runs are longer then spec.

mantis wrote: »

It happens every single day. Guys walk around looking for the sound they want in there system and are not getting it due to the poor quality of speakers they own. Poor placement. Poor calibration. Poor wire management. I could go on and on here. And it's not like they have poor quality speakers , it's they are asking more out of them then they aare capable of. There are sonic limits to all speakers and trying to get high end sound of a pair of RT series speakers is just not going to happen no matter what MIT wire you have or Sunfire amp you power them with. Lsi's have there limits although they benefit from higher end amps and other gear. You get more out of them because they offer more. It's simple really.

I have been watching people on this forum make mistake after mistake trying to get to a level of sonic perfection with so so speakers. Buying amps and separates , high end wire and all kinds of crazy things when the problem lays elsewhere.

I'm not hating on anyone's gear , I'm just point out that maybe the better sound you are looking for doesn't rest in MIT wires or that beautiful Sunfire monster amp. Maybe if you have a higher quality speaker and a good placement , you just might find what your ears are telling you to get. It's funny and I feel bad for some but you can only show them the path , you can't walk it for them.

End Rant. Carry on.

2 great posts mantis! +1

TroyD

C'mon, Dan....it wasn't THAT long ago that you and liv4fam were doing cable shootouts just for fun....Transparent was king and all that...

My, how times have changed.

BDT

TECHNOKID

TroyD wrote: »

C'mon, Dan....it wasn't THAT long ago that you and liv4fam were doing cable shootouts just for fun....Transparent was king and all that...

My, how times have changed.

BDT

I guess people are learning from experience

TroyD

Per usual, you have no clue what you are babbling about.

BDT

mantis

TroyD wrote: »

C'mon, Dan....it wasn't THAT long ago that you and liv4fam were doing cable shootouts just for fun....Transparent was king and all that...

My, how times have changed.

BDT

Hey Troy ,
How are things? It's been a while.

It was that long ago. It was like 2002- 2004 or so when all that madness went down. But to get to your kinda question kinda statement, Transparent was like kool Aid and we drank the hell out of it. Same with MIT. These cable companies swear by there magic boxes. You start swearing by there magic boxed until you talk to enough engineers and see what it takes to pass a signal from A to B. Thats really all you have to do and do it right. What we all miss is the fact that once you achieve this goal, there is no more room for improvement.
The madness Liv4fam an I have done was a waste of time but a really good learning experience. It allowed us to open our minds and listen to so many kinds of wire. We tested everything under the sun. It got so bad that we didn't "Listen" anymore and just "tested" every damn thing.
You didn't ask but I will tell you Liv4fam is doing extremely well.

Once I found my way , I realized wire for the most part is ****. There is to many "ways" of getting it done. How the hell is anyone expected to research all those wire companies and find the right one? It's madness. You listen to this wire then that one, then change something in your system and find out the old wire works better in this system then the new ones do. It's a never ending road. To me it's not all that fun anymore.

I have learned a lot over my Professional 10 year career and all my hobby years. Wire isn't as important as I once thought it was. Don't get me wrong , good conductors are important to any system. But there is a level which you need no more. I feel that way about all things in our hobby. Overkill is a huge waste of money. I don't got it like that so I don't waste my money anymore on **** like Transparent and MIT.

So how is your systems doing? What are you up 2 these days?

TroyD

Hey Dan!

I'm doing pretty well, thanks for asking.

It's amazing how things that you once were so passionate about...over time, well, you point of view, perspectives change.


I did and still do think that wire makes a difference, that there are sonic differences...and all that. Did then, do now.

I also believe that it is up to the individual to make those judgements for themselves...there are too many variables.

Same thing for the companies....sure, it's easy to say that this set of cables is insanely priced....however, there is more at play than what the manufacturer cost is. Advertising, marketing, R&D, economies of scale...and the price of exclusiveity...again, there are WAY too many variables for one person to make a blanket statement.

My system is good, running Quad 988's, restored/modded Heathkit W5-M amps, Melos pre, modded Sony SCD-555ES SACD player, VPI Scoutmaster turntable. MIT cabling....I'm quite happy with it.

Glad to hear things are well with you, as for liv4fam...as you might guess, I still wouldn't piss in his pocket if his nuts were on fire.

BDT

mantis

TroyD wrote: »

Hey Dan!

I'm doing pretty well, thanks for asking.

It's amazing how things that you once were so passionate about...over time, well, you point of view, perspectives change.


I did and still do think that wire makes a difference, that there are sonic differences...and all that. Did then, do now.

I also believe that it is up to the individual to make those judgements for themselves...there are too many variables.

Same thing for the companies....sure, it's easy to say that this set of cables is insanely priced....however, there is more at play than what the manufacturer cost is. Advertising, marketing, R&D, economies of scale...and the price of exclusiveity...again, there are WAY too many variables for one person to make a blanket statement.

My system is good, running Quad 988's, restored/modded Heathkit W5-M amps, Melos pre, modded Sony SCD-555ES SACD player, VPI Scoutmaster turntable. MIT cabling....I'm quite happy with it.

Glad to hear things are well with you, as for liv4fam...as you might guess, I still wouldn't piss in his pocket if his nuts were on fire.

BDT

I agree with you on the way to many variables for someone to make a blanket statement. Personally I have my own opinions, from what I have seen and learned over the years. I personally will not waste my money on really expensive(to me) wire. I still have a fetish with wire , I think I always will.

Your system sounds like it would be fun to listen to. We once a year have a swap sale where we invite audiophiles from everywhere to come in trade , buy sell demo just have a really good weekend with us. You would really love it. We bring in so many different older gear it's not even funny. We had a few pairs of Quads and I think they all sold that weekend. We also have DQ10's which reminded me of you. They sold as well. Fussy speakers they where very placement sensitive but when we got them right, they sounded great. I heard them many years ago but they where old and in bad shape. This pair was mint.

Liv4fam can be an **** but so can we all. he is truly a good guy and a wealth of knowledge and deep experience. He does systems that I even have trouble wrapping my head around. he does the biggest baddest Crestron jobs. It's pretty sick his designs. I'd take up drinking if I had to design on a regular basis the system he puts together. I bet if you met him in person , you 2 would hit it off.

TroyD

I like my rig (sitting in front of it now)....all Stereophile Class A/B gear...I'm pretty much maxed out in terms of upgrades at my income level. I've got no real desire to change anything. I'm pretty much off the swapping bandwagon....

That said, I could go back to a pair of DQ-10s and be happy (the DQ20's make my pants go crazy)....stupid hobby.

Hey, you never know...might take you up on it!

BDT

bigaudiofanatic

hearingimpared wrote: »

Come to my house Bob with your inexpensive cables and we'll A/B them with my MITs and see if you can hear the difference.

I would not mind going and having a listen.

I think that the thicker the cable the less resistance the signal has to flow to the speaker. But might I say that once you get to the speaker you still have to go threw what the speaker has for wire. I think it ends at 10 gauge wire and maybe something a bit nicer than monster. That is just how I see it.

Face

I wonder if Bob is still reading this thread?

NJPOLKER

Bob probably got wise and ran away from all the stupidity.

everpress

Sigh... being somewhat new... I thought I'd bring some gasoline and ask what you guys think of the fire... But seriously, what do you guys think of this:

http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

bikezappa

xcapri79 wrote: »

Mantis you are a voice of reason. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

Ohms Law is the voice of reason.

E=IR

treitz3

everpress wrote: »

Sigh... being somewhat new... I thought I'd bring some gasoline and ask what you guys think of the fire... But seriously, what do you guys think of this:

http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

You obviously have not read this thread.

everpress

treitz3 wrote: »

You obviously have not read this thread.

deleted....

Read through page 10... I've had enough.

Now I have to go sell my kidney for some speaker cable... Anyone want to buy some scrap CAT5?

treitz3

It's all in there. All of the facts, all of the links, everything you would ever want or need to know about your question.

SCompRacer

inspiredsports

"Not everything that can be counted counts,

. . . and not everything that counts can be measured."

Albert Einstein

Lowell_M

xcapri79 wrote: »

That is true. But I believe he was referring to the quantum mechanics world of the physicist and not the everyday real world of you and I.

Einstein was always impressed that many of his theories could be confirmed by measurement. The bending of light by the gravitational pull of the sun is one example.

Quantum mechanics is the foundation of the every day world of you and I.

It has been said a million times on the forum, but I felt like upping my post count by 1...

Most people who are in this hobby for the reason of a quest for the ultimate reproduction (and enjoyment) of audio understand that there is no measurement system for the understanding of the human perception of sound.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

SCompRacer wrote: »

finally some GOOD info getting into the thread!

yummeh yummeh ta ta's

bikezappa

xcapri79 wrote: »

Quantum mechanics explains the sub-atomic that concerns nuclear physics. Yes is it a foundation, but we don't really notice quantum effects until we get into the sub-atomic world. This doesn't apply to audio measurements.

This is true. You don't need quantum mechanics to explain the electrical characteristics of audio frequencies. Just as you don't need quantum mechanics to explain a cars HP or things falling off buildings.

I know this is an over simplifiaction, but you do need quantum mechanics to explain mother nature when things get very small, sub-atomic, or when things move close to the speed of light.

Almost everything we encounter in everyday life doesn't need quantum mechanics to explain or predict it's behaiver.

Except maybe this forum. And that is a joke.

Please forgive my spelling.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

IMO in one way or another physic's applies to everything in life, even though i don' understand most of it i know it's there lol

I could not see myself scavenging cat5 cable and spending hour's upon hour's stripping + braiding to make a set of cable's. I'd much rather buy a decent 4 conductor wire and go from there.

One question that's been floating around my head for some time is: is it really better to not use a connector on the end's of a speaker wire? If yes would it be feasible to "tin" the end's with some lead free 4% silver solder?

Right now i have some Rocketfish cable that was included with my speaker purchase from Futuresh1t and i run bare wire on both end's but i'd like to get better cable's and i am hesitant to "terminate" the end's as 1) it add's cost and 2) can possibly add resistance?

Thought's?

Lowell_M

xcapri79 wrote: »

Quantum mechanics explains the sub-atomic that concerns nuclear physics. Yes is it a foundation, but we don't really notice quantum effects until we get into the sub-atomic world. This doesn't apply to audio measurements.

Yes... thank you for the clarification (my B.S. is in Physics). I think you may have taken my comment a little too seriously.

Point is... Measuring what is actually meaningful in the human listening experience related to how a conductor between an amp and a speaker carries the signal may not be possible and would be very difficult to prove if it were possible. There is far more going on than a 3 variable equation... or even a simple wave mechanics problem.

inspiredsports

xcapri79 wrote: »

That is true. But I believe he was referring to the quantum mechanics world of the physicist and not the everyday real world of you and I.

Einstein was always impressed that many of his theories could be confirmed by measurement. The bending of light by the gravitational pull of the sun is one example.

Upon re-reading it, I guess my Einstein quote could be taken either way.

My point always is, you need to LISTEN for yourself as different people and different systems have differing needs.

I'm personally convinced many high-priced wires transmit harmonics to the drivers that are beyond the human hearing spectrum, but contribute positively to the overall listening experience.

In that sense the performance can be quantitatively measured by a scientist electronically, and argued to be better based on those numbers, and priced accordingly. Qualitatively, various people will or won't hear those differences.

bikezappa

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

If yes would it be feasible to "tin" the end's with some lead free 4% silver solder?

can possibly add resistance?

Thought's?

By "tin" I assume you mean solder the ends of the speaker wire.

I have found that you will get a potentally lower resistance connection soldering the endings of the speaker wire because the solder is soft and will conform to the speaker connection when screwed down better than plain wire. The increased contact area will slightly lower the contact resistance. This lower contact resistance may not be audable however. However, the wire is much easier to get into the hole in the speaker terminal after it is soldered.

Hope my spelling didn't offend you.

bikezappa

inspiredsports wrote: »

.

I'm personally convinced many high-priced wires transmit harmonics to the drivers that are beyond the human hearing spectrum, but contribute positively to the overall listening experience.

QUOTE]

If the transmitted harmonics are beyond the hearing spectrum how can they contribute in any way to the listening experience?

inspiredsports

bikezappa wrote: »

. . If the transmitted harmonics are beyond the hearing spectrum how can they contribute in any way to the listening experience?

Here are a couple of questions I would ask:

1) Are ears the only receptors on/in a human body capable of detecting the presence of varying sound waves (sound pressure levels) around it?

2) Are varying sound waves (sound pressure levels) the only component of sound/music?

If you really want to explore, here's a start

- http://www.sound-thinking.org/index.php?showtopic=2630
- http://www.sound-thinking.org/index.php?showtopic=3666
- http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/loudspeaker_as_musical_instrument

F1nut

mantis wrote: »

It's funny and I feel bad for some but you can only show them the path , you can't walk it for them.

I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to follow your path.

madmax

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm personally convinced many high-priced wires transmit harmonics to the drivers that are beyond the human hearing spectrum, but contribute positively to the overall listening experience.

In that sense the performance can be quantitatively measured by a scientist electronically, and argued to be better based on those numbers, and priced accordingly. Qualitatively, various people will or won't hear those differences.

Excellent thought!
madmax

mantis

F1nut wrote: »

I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to follow your path.

My path is that bad? Yours is so much better? enlighten me