Roger Russell FOS or legit?

heiney9

The thing I have noticed with my Polk speakers is as I've moved up the line in both gear and cables my speakers keep on rewarding me, even a lowly pair of Monitor 5B's. Granted they have also been upgraded w/new caps and resistors as well as the RD0 tweets.

My 1C's have been upgraded as well, but still, not many mid-level speakers are going to keep on giving as you move up, but it seems Polks do. That's not to say I couldn't do better with a higher end speaker manufacturer. IMO, I'd have to spend a helluva lot of $$$ to obtain the type of sound I'm getting now.

H9

hearingimpared

heiney9 wrote: »

IMO, I'd have to spend a helluva lot of $$$ to obtain the type of sound I'm getting now.

H9

I think F1 and DK posted that to get SDA quality (namely 2.3 TL & 1.2 TL) in todays market you would have to spend in excess of $10K. I would imagine that the 1Cs would demand 75% of that.

inspiredsports

hearingimpared wrote: »

I think F1 and DK posted that to get SDA quality (namely 2.3 TL & 1.2 TL) in todays market you would have to spend in excess of $10K. I would imagine that the 1Cs would demand 75% of that.

This is a great point. I've been actively upgrading for a while now and the Polks are never the weakest link. They just keep sounding better and better as the other weaker links are upgraded.

WilliamM2

hearingimpared wrote: »

I think F1 and DK posted that to get SDA quality (namely 2.3 TL & 1.2 TL) in todays market you would have to spend in excess of $10K. I would imagine that the 1Cs would demand 75% of that.

That's assuming a direct correlation to inflation. Problem is, speaker prices have not kept up with inflation. Look at Polk's latest offerings.

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsi/index.php?s=lsi15

The Lsi15 retails for $100 less than my SDA1C's did in 1989. Many would argue that they have higher quality drivers and cabinet work. Adding more drivers would not raise the cost to $7500. Maybe $2500. I'm sure much of this can be attributed to current Chinese labor costs.

F1nut

hearingimpared wrote: »

I think F1 and DK posted that to get SDA quality (namely 2.3 TL & 1.2 TL) in todays market you would have to spend in excess of $10K. I would imagine that the 1Cs would demand 75% of that.

Slightly off topic, but I haven't heard a speaker under $30K that I would consider replacing my SDA's with.

markmarc

Back to RR website. Has anybody noticed that he lacks a bibliography that lists scientific papers, studies, etc., to back up his claims? To me, if you're going to put yourself out there with such an essay and promote it, it would be wise to have documents that support your opinion. Our own Darque Knight (Raife) has supported his Power Line Noise Threads with scientific measurements.

As for myself, synergy is a huge issue. I also personally believe that cabling should take up about 20% of your system cost. $1K cables between $500ea. amp and speakers isn't a wise balance.

inspiredsports

WilliamM2 wrote: »

That's assuming a direct correlation to inflation. Problem is, speaker prices have not kept up with inflation. Look at Polk's latest offerings.

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsi/index.php?s=lsi15

The Lsi15 retails for $100 less than my SDA1C's did in 1989. Many would argue that they have higher quality drivers and cabinet work. Adding more drivers would not raise the cost to $7500. Maybe $2500. I'm sure much of this can be attributed to current Chinese labor costs.

OK, whatever. What exact speaker would you go out and buy to surpass a nice pair of 1.2TL's that have upgraded crossovers, Mortite and Dynamat Extreme ???

Yeah, I thought so . . . Roger Russell's :eek:

inspiredsports

markmarc wrote: »

Back to RR website. Has anybody noticed that he lacks a bibliography that lists scientific papers, studies, etc., to back up his claims? To me, if you're going to put yourself out there with such an essay and promote it, it would be wise to have documents that support your opinion. Our own Darque Knight (Raife) has supported his Power Line Noise Threads with scientific measurements.

As for myself, synergy is a huge issue. I also personally believe that cabling should take up about 20% of your system cost. $1K cables between $500ea. amp and speakers isn't a wise balance.

However, unlike so many skeptics, Raife does not seem to need the documentation more than his ears. He just likes to do it because he can.

You defeat your own argument as you can't quantify synergy. Attempting to put percentages on relative component values flies in the face of the synergistic approach.

I truly go for synergy. When I'm seeking a component, I put 100% of what I can into it.

DarqueKnight

What? You guys are still here?

Since no one around here has heard Cable Naysayer Guru Supreme Roger Russel's high end speaker (IDS-25), I looked to find some reviews.

The IDS-25.com website has four reviews from people who are either friends or personal acquaintances of Mr. Russel. No reviews from audio publications or owners are posted. Curious isn't it?

I found this "review" from an Audio Circle forum member who heard them at the 2008 Rocky Mountain Audio Festival. Bear in mind that the people engaged in this discussion are avid DIY line array speaker builders and enthusiasts.

The link to the Audio Circle thread is here.

==============================================================

FULLRANGEMAN : This IDS25 picture of Engineer Roger Russel use 25 cheap 4 inches full ranges per sealed box and the sound is very beautiful according the reviews.
www.ids25.com

Regards.

Danny: BTW, I heard a speaker like the one pictured below a few years ago at RMAF.

FULLRANGEMAN: Do you listen this same IDS25 at RMAF? What are your opinion about this LineArray do you listen?

Danny: Do you really want to know?

FULLRANGEMAN: Yes I do, cause I have no chance to listen a LA like this. And this IDS25 is very well quoted in the manufacturer Site.

Danny: When I went into the room to see these I was the only one in there (besides the guy running the room). So I handed him a familiar disc and gave them a listen.

Having no crossover they had no baffle step compensation. So from about 1000Hz and down they got a little lean. To compensate for the lack of bass the speakers were pushed right up to the wall.

They were positioned on the long wall and the rooms are 13 feet wide so I was about 10 to 11 feet away from the front of the speakers.

I also quickly noted that the top end was not there. I'd say everything from about 3kHz and up was really rolled off. All the air and space that went along with the piano that I was listening to was gone. Imaging was 2D and sound like it was all playing from the wall forward.

They remind me of the old saying about Bose. No highs, no lows.

To make matters worse, not only did they sound badly but they were very expensive.

FULLRANGEMAN: Thank you, as I live in Brazil any first hand info about a big LA is valuable to me. Regards, Gustavo

opnly bafld: +1 I couldn't believe they were actually letting people in the room to listen to the things.

Lin
===============================================================

Seems like the placebo effect from the Cardas wire and binding posts wasn't workin' at the RMAF.

Such good reviews.

F1nut

Seems like the placebo effect from the Cardas wire and binding posts wasn't workin' at the RMAF.

Ouch, that's going to leave a mark.

DarqueKnight

inspiredsports wrote: »

I would love to see a list from some of the naysayers who have actually voted with their wallets, purchased a progression of higher line wires, and then eventually gone back to lamp cord.

It would be very constructive if naysayers would do this as it would provide valuable insight into what didn't work in a set of circumstances.

It must have been a devastating disappointment be a bitter to the naysayer faithful when the Supreme High Cable Naysayer Guru Extraordinare chose NOT to make a strong stand and banish premium cable from his $18,900 speakers.

Wouldn't this have been the crowning achievement of his naysayer guruism? How could so wonderful and magnificent an opportunity be passed up? Imagine the boost this would have given to the faithful:

"See, we told you all along cable didn't matter. Guru Supreme Russel tried premium cable in his $18,900 speakers and none of it worked any better than commercial grade cable costing a few dollars per spool."

DarqueKnight

In post #140 I said that the Audio Circle member heard the IDS-25 at the 2008 Rocky Mountain Audio Festival. I should have said the 2006 festival.

Some Stereophile staffers heard the same speakers at the same RMAF and came away with these very positive impressions:

"In the amazing bass department, Roger Russell’s towering IDS-25 took today’s cake. With 25 drivers per side, and designed to sit very close to the rear wall with speakers and sweet-spot seat arranged in an isosceles triangle, the $18,900/pair speakers eliminate crossovers, woofers, midranges, tweeters, subwoofers...well, everything but the sound itself."-Jason

"Jason got it right about the incredible bass, but I stayed around long enough to test a wide variety of sources. I think they concentrated their demo on the bass since nobody believed that those small drivers could reproduce it so accurately, but the real surprise was the open and totally transparent vocals. The high end was crystalline and I even stood on a chair to discover that up or down, side to side there was no discernable sweet spot. When listening to the guitar it felt like you were sitting right on the bridge. The dynamic range with such little power requirement is awesome whether acoustic or synthesized. These are a totally remarkable pair of speakers."-Chris


Link: Sterephile IDS-25 Report From 2006 RMAF

markmarc

inspiredsports wrote: »

However, unlike so many skeptics, Raife does not seem to need the documentation more than his ears. He just likes to do it because he can.

You defeat your own argument as you can't quantify synergy. Attempting to put percentages on relative component values flies in the face of the synergistic approach.

I truly go for synergy. When I'm seeking a component, I put 100% of what I can into it.

Interesting point, and I'll grant you that I was a bit short in my reply. But the fact remain, RR has placed a long dissertation for public consumption. That's a far cry from my quick forum reply. Yet, he fails to support his argument with scientific facts. At least I can call upon the endless anecdotal evidence of those in various forums who have compared various cables and found one to be most fitting of their system, including your own statement.

An interesting short read on Synergy in general.

inspiredsports

markmarc wrote: »

Interesting point, and I'll grant you that I was a bit short in my reply. But the fact remain, RR has placed a long dissertation for public consumption. That's a far cry from my quick forum reply. Yet, he fails to support his argument with scientific facts. At least I can call upon the endless anecdotal evidence of those in various forums who have compared various cables and found one to be most fitting of their system, including your own statement.

An interesting short read on Synergy in general.

No argument about RR, I'm one of the 3 out of 4 Polkies who thinks he's basically a tool and would rather stop discussing him other than xcapri just won't quit anytime a wire is mention anywhere within the forum.

However, I am also one of those Polkies who does not believe in the X% for speakers, % for etc.

And I'm definitely one of those Polkies who does not think a good argument is put forth when one simply hangs his argument on links included in his/her post, so let's not get me started.

What I DO LIKE is raw, unadulterated reporting about what Polkies like and dislike about gear/pieces/parts they have stepped up to the counter and purchased with their own hard earned dollars.

nooshinjohn

inspiredsports wrote: »

no argument about rr, i'm one of the 3 out of 4 polkies who thinks he's basically a tool and would rather stop discussing him other than xcapri just won't quit anytime a wire is mention anywhere within the forum.

However, i am also one of those polkies who does not believe in the x% for speakers, % for etc.

And i'm definitely one of those polkies who does not think a good argument is put forth when one simply hangs his argument on links included in his/her post, so let's not get me started. :d

what i do like is raw, unadulterated reporting about what polkies like and dislike about gear/pieces/parts they have stepped up to the counter and purchased with their own hard earned dollars.

+1000000

inspiredsports

nooshinjohn wrote: »

+1000000

A + in 8 figures . . . now that's what I call inflation!

hearingimpared

inspiredsports wrote: »

What I DO LIKE is raw, unadulterated reporting about what Polkies like and dislike about gear/pieces/parts they have stepped up to the counter and purchased with their own hard earned dollars.

Well there are 10 Polkies who think RR is a genius so it looks like the battle and misinformation will rage on.

CoolJazz

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Since no one around here has heard Cable Naysayer Guru Supreme Roger Russel's high end speaker (IDS-25), I looked to find some reviews.

Actually, I saw and heard them at that RMAF too. I took a ton of pictures, so I may have them in one someplace. I'll look.

I remember well that setup as described. Flat up against the wall and a line of chairs on the opposite wall. Very narrow distance...felt like it they fell over you might get hit.

Both me and the guy I attended with went away very unimpressed. It's been a while now, and I don't know that we'd have been quite as brutal as the above review but we heard nothing about it that left any desire. When you see the price then, it just left you on your way out the door shaking your head.

And btw, I do find some qualities very good out of some single driver setups. I've also heard some DIY line sources that were something you'd spend much longer in front of and worked pretty well. Look up info on Dr. James Griffin's Line Array design.

As I've talked about before, anybody that buys into the wire is wire story is missing out on a very affordable way to better their system. It doesn't require going to four digit cable purchases to significantly upgrade! And in more ground we've covered before, the Audioquest demo showed that even on a $50 boombox you could hear the difference in speaker cables!

CoolJazz

nooshinjohn

hearingimpared wrote: »

Well there are 10 Polkies who think RR is a genius so it looks like the battle and misinformation will rage on.

I was one of them when I came here, and I was wrong. Once I pulled my head out of my **** (some will say it's still there) and listened to some of the advice given freely here, my listening experience improved immeasurably. A system is only as good as it's weakest link, and for most, cables is it. Once bias is tossed aside, you become aware of all that you have been missing and audio bliss awaits just around the corner.:D

dorokusai

I picked genius since I don't see any of you with a historical mark within an audio landmark such as McIntosh, or anything else for example. No offense to the sensitive types.

Roger's a stauch believer in his opinion of our collective hobby. I respect that even if I don't agree with it for the most part. John Curl, one of my audio idols, is a complete **** and rude in person but I respect his theory, designs and products.

The only Polkie who has really contributed an actual body of work here, above and beyond the normal tweaks would be our resident oscilliscope ubergeek DarqueKnight (Raife Smith II). Ex-Polkie Dr.Spec (Ed Mullins), currently Product Develop Manager/Customer Service Director of SV Sound (SVS), contributed some of the best subwoofer reviews I've ever read.

This hobby is infectious and sometimes an obsession for alot of us here and that's truly amazing to me personally. Do you guys realize that Club Polk is not just a factory sponsored user forum but I firmly believe on par with many other active user forums like Audio Karma, Audio Circle, Audioholics, Audio Asylum, etc.

We'll never collectively agree on everything but why it has to be so mean spirited, derisive and argued over and over to the point of ad nauseum....boggles me.

Don't let your rigid opinion fog your actual true love of your hobby. Enjoy it, embrace it and secretly hate the ppl who disagree with you. I can't count the times I've made little F1Nut voodoo dolls only to end up snuggling with them and crying like a baby. Damn, I didn't mean to say that out loud.

Later freaks.

F1nut

dorokusai wrote: »

I can't count the times I've made little F1Nut voodoo dolls only to end up snuggling with them and crying like a baby.

That's because my little Doro voodoo dolls have mo' better juju.

inspiredsports

Last two posts . . . now that's some good stuff!

Happy New Year!

snow

An interesting read for the believers and non believers alike.

http://www.vertexaq.com/content/view/36/1/



REGARDS SNOW

F1nut

Good read, thanks Jim.

hearingimpared

snow wrote: »

An interesting read for the believers and non believers alike.

http://www.vertexaq.com/content/view/36/1/



REGARDS SNOW

That was a very eye-opening read Jim. Thanks.

markmarc

From my understanding from those who attended the presentation at RMAF, it's still in its early stages. The next year or so should help to bring the testing into focus and give results that may redefine the cable discussion altogether.

nooshinjohn

Redefining on paper is no substitute for getting your own ears involved and deciding for yourself. I am interested in reading it though.

F1nut

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Redefining on paper is no substitute for getting your own ears involved and deciding for yourself.

Absolutely correct.

snow

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Redefining on paper is no substitute for getting your own ears involved and deciding for yourself.

F1nut wrote: »

Absolutely correct.

Agreed. But it appears that a large portion of the non believers want proof before trying higher end cables.



REGARDS SNOW

ben62670

We should start a new poll. How many people believe that some can't hear a difference in cables? I do find it funny that most of the believers have been around here a while and have actually tried different cables on different gear, and still the non believers tell us we can't hear a difference.
Ben


Edit: I allways think of Elmer Fudd when I hear RR mentioned. Woger Wussell that Wascally wabbit. I know it is childish to make fun of someone's name, but I can't help it.