Roger Russell FOS or legit?

Polkersince85

I have documented hearing loss of 50% in the 4000-4500 hz range. If the cables/wires changed that frequency range, I could spend 50K on wires and it wouldn't help. I am willing to try anything that improves above or below that range. Thirty years of machining will do that to you. I think the older we all get, the investments may have diminishing returns. Enjoy it while we can.

ben62670

Is that called tonal deafness?

hearingimpared

Polkersince85 wrote: »

I have documented hearing loss of 50% in the 4000-4500 hz range. If the cables/wires changed that frequency range, I could spend 50K on wires and it wouldn't help. I am willing to try anything that improves above or below that range. Thirty years of machining will do that to you. I think the older we all get, the investments may have diminishing returns. Enjoy it while we can.

Yep I'm starting to notice the 50's hearing loss!:(

gdb

http://www.vertexaq.com/content/view/36/1/


Do these people mean defense when they print "defence" or, is it an intentional mis-spelling to convey another meaning ?? If the former, I wonder why they don't enlist the services of a proof reader?!?!

BlueFox

gdb wrote: »

http://www.vertexaq.com/content/view/36/1/


Do these people mean defense when they print "defence" or, is it an intentional mis-spelling to convey another meaning ?? If the former, I wonder why they don't enlist the services of a proof reader?!?!

They are English. They constanly butcher the English language. :rolleyes:

gdb

BF, tell me about it !! Sometimes when I watch British movies or TV shows, I have to use the closed captions to figure out just what the Hell is being said !:eek:

inspiredsports

gdb wrote: »

BF, tell me about it !! Sometimes when I watch British movies or TV shows, I have to use the closed captions to figure out just what the Hell is being said !:eek:

Exactly, but it's still confusing as the CC's are misspelled

Sami

gdb wrote: »

BF, tell me about it !! Sometimes when I watch British movies or TV shows, I have to use the closed captions to figure out just what the Hell is being said !:eek:

It just means you have a poor English skills.

As BlueFox said, defence is the correct spelling and defense is the butchered version. It's also theatre, not theater. You Americans really should learn some English.

everpress

I grew up in an odd little place in Louisiana... For a short time, I guess, they taught spelling like this:

theatre
grey
and the like...

I still get **** from proofreaders whenever I write copy, as even punctuation is different in a few ways...

JohnLocke88

BlueFox wrote: »

And show the same improvement on the component side. They all seem to have entry level equipment, and act as if that equipment is the pinnacle of audio perfection.

Not that there is anything wrong with entry level equipment (such as LSi speakers, Emo amps, etc.), but tweaks (cables, ICs, room acoustics) can make it sound better, and higher level equipment will sound better still.

Lsi's are entry level? I guess that makes my RTi series, white van speakers.

everpress wrote: »

I grew up in an odd little place in Louisiana... For a short time, I guess, they taught spelling like this:

theatre
grey
and the like...

I still get **** from proofreaders whenever I write copy, as even punctuation is different in a few ways...

I do the grey thing all the time. Screw em... (spell check)

As for the poll, I voted genius, just because I'm too poor to afford expensive cables So it makes me feel better!

In all seriousness though, I think the underlying reason for denouncing higher end cables is out of fear for the possibility of lack of return on investment. Most would agree that in this hobby, there will come a point where your investment will start to increase exponentially for linear returns in quality.

That said, I think John is totally correct with "get your ears on some and decide for yourself." Audio is not cold hard numbers. It is a sensory hobby that involves emotional response to audible stimuli. Why take a hobby like that and attempt to reduce it to numbers. If using it to improve, sure; but not to belittle possible improvements or reject new directions in audio research. Again, I am keeping an open mind. I'm probably in the minority that I have actually only heard the extremes; one (the lower end) is my system, 12 awg monoprice wire, the other (the higher end) is a family friend's system, http://www.transparentcable.com/products/show_product.php?recID=24&perfID=1&catID=1&modCAT=1

Needless to say, I'm sure there is a broad middle ground between those two extremes.

For right now, with money what it is for me, 12 AWG monoprice wire will have to suffice. However, I am very much looking forward to having the opportunity to experiment with better cables in the near future.

inspiredsports

I wish there was a way to view the number of total number of posts behind those who voted "windbag" versus the total number of posts behind those who voted "genius".

I'll bet it would skew the results to about 99% windbag.

I'm guessing based upon the way it's been playing out, TROLLS / ACORN are registering accounts with 1 post and voting genius.

JohnLocke88

inspiredsports wrote: »

I wish there was a way to view the number of total number of posts behind those who voted "windbag" versus the total number of posts behind those who voted "genius".

I'll bet it would skew the results to about 99% windbag.

I'm guessing based upon the way it's been playing out, TROLLS / ACORN are registering accounts with 1 post and voting genius. :mad:

Am I a troll / ACORN employee?

megasat16

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm guessing based upon the way it's been playing out, TROLLS / ACORN are registering accounts with 1 post and voting genius. :mad:

I talked with Roger Russell and told him to register several accounts with different emails address and vote himself a Genius. I love the guy even though I don't like all his BS.

megasat16

FYI polkies, I started to think Polkies are FOS too. It's a hobby, take a step back and take a deep breathe! You'll know it's not too hard to disagree with someone and no personal attacks are required for disagreement.

snow

I wish this poll had more options, I dont think that RR is stupid just a hyprocrite that is attempting to profit by his hypocrisy. Which in my mind is worse than being stupid, stupid can change with understanding. Being a hyprocrite is a lack of moral discipline.



REGARDS SNOW

nooshinjohn

JohnLocke88 wrote: »

Am I a troll / ACORN employee?

Yes on both counts is my vote.:p


j/k:)

treitz3

snow wrote: »

I wish this poll had more options, I dont think that RR is stupid just a hyprocrite that is attempting to profit by his hypocrisy. Which in my mind is worse than being stupid, stupid can change with understanding. Being a hyprocrite is a lack of moral discipline.

I could always create another poll, I just figured I'd see what the general consensus was while having a bit of fun. I have asked before what some other options may have been and nobody chimed back in, so I'll ask again...

What other options would you have liked to have seen?

megasat16

Try a few of these.

Do you think Roger Russell have understandings of Hi-Fi sound?

Do you think Roger Russell made Scientific Statements based on measurement or knows what he is talking about?

Do you know if Roger Russell has hearing problems?

Do you think Roger Russell is a hypocrite?

Do you hate Roger Russell for disagreeing with your cable experiences?

Do you think you are 100% right and Roger Russell is 100% wrong?

inspiredsports

JohnLocke88 wrote: »

Am I a troll / ACORN employee?

Um, well, you live on the left coast

Sami

snow wrote: »

I wish this poll had more options, I dont think that RR is stupid just a hyprocrite that is attempting to profit by his hypocrisy. Which in my mind is worse than being stupid, stupid can change with understanding. Being a hyprocrite is a lack of moral discipline.

I don't agree. The world is not as perfect yet where a product will sell by its technical competence alone, you need marketing as well. As an engineer I wish it was that way, and to some degree it is in Northern Europe as there a good product can sell even with poor marketing, where as in USA marketing is king and technical merits sometimes take a back seat.

As an engineer I can tell you cable makes a difference in our systems, that's why we need to calibrate every time even if single cable has changed in the system. However we are dealing with frequencies that are far above the level that human ear can detect and with equipment that are far more sensitive than the rather primitive human ear.

I am not that far in my audio hobby that I could tell anyone cable makes a difference or doesn't, but I can tell you it is not only about the absolute sound quality, it is also very much about the PERCEIVED audio quality. Our ears only transport the sound, our brains process it. There are so many variations of our mood that colour (<- dictionary is trying incorrectly to change this to color) the sound; our mood, the lighting of the room or how clean it is, HOW GOOD THOSE NEW CABLES LOOK. That is why you cannot say for sure if the new cables made your system sound better or not because they might have affected your brain and changed your perception of the sound. That is where these double blind studies come in. How many of you that have heard a difference have done the testing correctly? Note: if your perception of the sound quality changed with new cables, that's all that matters, whether it actually changed the sound quality or not. If someone switched back your old cables without telling you and you couldn't see them and you couldn't hear a difference, it's still a perceived improvement in sound.

Overall, it's an endless debate since it really has not been proved one way or another. I know many of you who don't bother to read what I have said will ridicule me saying they have heard the difference themselves so it must be true, but that just tells they have not fully understood the concept of perceived sound quality and brains influence in this whole matter. If it was purely a function of the ear, I am pretty sure Bose would not exist, no matter of marketing would save them.

Mon40CSMM10

In my own case, I'm running affordable speaker cable: Royal Cable RCSW16GCP50/RCSW18GCP100.

(The RCSW16GCP50 is available as 50 feet of 16 gauge cable. The RCSW18GCP100 is available as 100 feet of 18 gauge cable. Where did I find both of those? Car audio section of a WalMart store.)

Now, I've got a bi-wired arrangement going to the front mains, with the 16 gauge cable going to the lower binding posts and the 18 gauge cable going to the upper binding posts. (Bi-wiring itself did not produce a major audio improvement, though I did find it helped the receiver run cooler.) The rest of the speakers all only use the 18 gauge cable. Cable runs are no more than 12 feet, so it is a very compact home theater arrangement.

Long story made short, I am more than happy with the sound I am getting from the receiver/speaker/speaker cable combination in use.

Could I get even better sound with more expensive cables? Maybe, or maybe not. But unless high end cable manufacturers want to send me cable lengths free of charge to try out, I also don't see why I should spend a significant amount of money trying cables I'll likely not be able to return (once I've cut them to various lengths and removed insulation to allow for connecting to speakers and receivers).

WilliamM2

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm guessing based upon the way it's been playing out, TROLLS / ACORN are registering accounts with 1 post and voting genius.

Are you really that insecure? Even though the poll is in your favor? I don't know about the genius voters, but I do know that DK has more than one account, maybe you all do.

tonyb

hearingimpared wrote: »

Yep I'm starting to notice the 50's hearing loss!:(

Me too Joe. Funny thing is, I hear less when people are talking,yet more in the music. I have become more sensitive to the music, more aware of tiny notes, the way they decay. When someone talks to me though, if I have no interest in what their saying,my ears turn off like a cold shower. Women call that selective hearing in men....maybe some truth to it.

treitz3

It may just be Tony that your ears are getting fine tuned to the subtle nuances that have always been there, but you never picked up on or even noticed before.

snow

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Are you really that insecure? Even though the poll is in your favor? I don't know about the genius voters, but I do know that DK has more than one account, maybe you all do.

Yes your right it's a conspiracy I voted 12 times :rolleyes:



REGARDS SNOW

nooshinjohn

xcapri79 wrote: »

The real vote might be a lot closer, perhaps close to being a tie?!
Interesting. True science isn't decided by a vote anyways.
Votes happen in religious and political matters.
Based on some of the more recent posts, at least, I see that rationality is entering into this discussion.
Let me also apologize for owning entry level equipment.

Rationality is not your strong suit... The vote is hardly close to being a tie, but continue seeing what you want to see. I will continue looking for the truth by using informed opinions and my ears.

snow

Sami wrote: »

I don't agree. The world is not as perfect yet where a product will sell by its technical competence alone, you need marketing as well. As an engineer I wish it was that way, and to some degree it is in Northern Europe as there a good product can sell even with poor marketing, where as in USA marketing is king and technical merits sometimes take a back seat.

As an engineer I can tell you cable makes a difference in our systems, that's why we need to calibrate every time even if single cable has changed in the system. However we are dealing with frequencies that are far above the level that human ear can detect and with equipment that are far more sensitive than the rather primitive human ear.

I am not that far in my audio hobby that I could tell anyone cable makes a difference or doesn't, but I can tell you it is not only about the absolute sound quality, it is also very much about the PERCEIVED audio quality. Our ears only transport the sound, our brains process it. There are so many variations of our mood that colour (<- dictionary is trying incorrectly to change this to color) the sound; our mood, the lighting of the room or how clean it is, HOW GOOD THOSE NEW CABLES LOOK. That is why you cannot say for sure if the new cables made your system sound better or not because they might have affected your brain and changed your perception of the sound. That is where these double blind studies come in. How many of you that have heard a difference have done the testing correctly? Note: if your perception of the sound quality changed with new cables, that's all that matters, whether it actually changed the sound quality or not. If someone switched back your old cables without telling you and you couldn't see them and you couldn't hear a difference, it's still a perceived improvement in sound.

Overall, it's an endless debate since it really has not been proved one way or another. I know many of you who don't bother to read what I have said will ridicule me saying they have heard the difference themselves so it must be true, but that just tells they have not fully understood the concept of perceived sound quality and brains influence in this whole matter. If it was purely a function of the ear, I am pretty sure Bose would not exist, no matter of marketing would save them.

I cant agree with that. He could simply have ommitted the Cardas wiring part and said if he felt it was important to list the wiring as being hi purity content copper and been honest and true to his beliefs. He chose to do otherwise. I really dont think it would matter though whether or not the Cardas wire made a difference or not the speakers are truly butt ugly and few people would ever take the time to give them a listen for that reason alone.



REGARDS SNOW

Sami

snow wrote: »

I cant agree with that. He could simply have ommitted the Cardas wiring part and said if he felt it was important to list the wiring as being hi purity content copper and been honest and true to his beliefs. He chose to do otherwise.

True, but he also doesn't tell anyone the Cardas in his speakers makes a difference. That would have made him hypocrite. It's marketing and in this country it sells.

snow wrote: »

I really dont think it would matter though whether or not the Cardas wire made a difference or not the speakers are truly butt ugly and few people would ever take the time to give them a listen for that reason alone.

Which just proves the point that a product will not sell on technical merit alone. If it makes more attractive to some potential buyers by using Cardas then why not use it? When you make a commercial product it's totally different than making one for your own use.

gp4jesus

I've EXPERIENCED the difference good wire makes both at the line level and speaker level. I've talked to people at Best Buy & Circuit city to name two stores who kinda hawk what RR does: gage doesn't matter as much as some think. read on to draw your own conclusions

I'll post something I wrote to another thread.
Hmm... this topic of wire, gage/quality of same, and ICs seems to be as, if not more, controversial than Christ's existence.
Before I give my $.02 worth: I'm using fresh, new OFC AR 12 gage with my A1s (surround channels cut off @ 100hz) I plan to purchase A5s myself for front L&R. Using separate stereo amp for a CSI A6-I have the wire and channels available so why not!
My EXPERIENCE on gage is simple: BIGGER IS BETTER!!. I've told these stories many times, but never on-line.
Experience 1: a pair of speakers that I paid $650 in 1980. About 6 months after I got them I decided to rewire them w/12 ga monster cable. Did one cabinet. Reconnected it to my system w/the other the other speaker still stock. Had to set the balance control between 10 & 11 o'clock to "balance" the modest volume setting. when I did the other speaker the "balance" problem went away.

Experience 2: about 10 years later, had a pair of subs with 2 12s in each, one driver daisey chained to the other. They came hard wired w/about 10' of 10 ga Monster cable. I EXO'd @ 110 hz, driving them with a Belles Series I power amp. About 6 months after I got them I decided to rewire them. In a nutshell, I shortend the cable and gave each driver its own connection. Yeah that right-twice as thick, half as long. Had to make a signifcant change to XO LP output setting because EVERYTHING sounded fat & heavy.

Experience 2 served to fortify my belief with experience 1. I plan to rewire all my HT speakers given time & bi-amp the LCR channels! I'll visit another time w/ my experience with ICs.
So to anyone that preaches wire size doesn't matter... ...you best plan to take 29 years to change my mind! And it will be a hard sell!"

heiney9

M* cable is a joke and the insulation is ALWAYS thicker than the cheap copper wire inside. And cable size is only one very small part of the equation. If one simply goes for the largest gauge wire and nothing else...........they will be sorely disappointed.

H9