Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

inspiredsports

suprafantx wrote: »

My experienment is fust for fun. I don't care if it is good or bad at the end. I do not use cat 5 cable. I am using cat 6 shielded cable because I talked to a friend and he explained to me that a good cable is not only base on the quality of the cooper or silver wires, the shield also is an important part of quality cable.

The reasons I picked cat 6 shielded cable:
1) It is better than cat 5.
2) It is shielded.
3) Very easy to customize the size of the speaker wires ( add on latter if I want to):p

Have you been able to do any listening tests? I'm curious how they sound and to learn what other cables you have for comparison.

suprafantx

inspiredsports wrote: »

Have you been able to do any listening tests?

No, not yet.

comfortablycurt

Keiko wrote: »

Curt you nimrod. You honestly don't know what a spearker cable is?

I'll tell ya what a spearker cable is...It's what them pygmy dudes in Africa use. They tie it on the end of their spears so they don't lose em'.

I'll put it in JVC terms for ya...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=idiot+strings

Ahhh...I get it now. I don't know how I could have missed that.

So what's with all the off-topic discussion about speaker cables in this thread?

Let's get it back on topic. What kind of spearker cables does everyone prefer? I've been having trouble with losing my spears lately, it sounds like a spearker cable is just what I need.

inspiredsports

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Ahhh...I get it now. I don't know how I could have missed that.

So what's with all the off-topic discussion about speaker cables in this thread?

Let's get it back on topic. What kind of spearker cables does everyone prefer? I've been having trouble with losing my spears lately, it sounds like a spearker cable is just what I need.

Actually, I'm not sure more than one or two posts in this thread have been "on" topic as you correctly noted the original poster inquired about "speaRker"cables.

The careful reader might also recall he wrote about ". . . "DAM DIFFERENCE", . . . "some violin thing". . . "classic music" . . . "being riiped off" . . . "jokeing" . . . and that "sound is precived".

Even after 1,059 posts, we've not properly addressed those issues either.

Dam Difference: Hoover vs. Aswan?
some violin thing: Charlie Daniels fiddle?
classic music: Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Led Zep?
being riiped off - sold overripe fruit?
jokeing: small man attempting humor on horseback?
precived: a thick yellowish musky-odored substance found in a sac near the **** of the civet?

cnh

String Theory?

seafire

HEHEHE its me again!.I thought this was buried.I only have one piece of advice.On the pics I saw the twisted pairs and termination was wrong.Run all solid colours into one termination and run all striped colours into another termination.This way you get the noise rejection advantage from the twisted pair.Multi strand is more tough against breakage on installs but one of the reasons I use cat 5 is for the solid core effect
KEEP ON PULLING WIRE:D

inspiredsports

seafire wrote: »

HEHEHE its me again!.I thought this was buried.I only have one piece of advice.On the pics I saw the twisted pairs and termination was wrong.Run all solid colours into one termination and run all striped colours into another termination.This way you get the noise rejection advantage from the twisted pair.Multi strand is more tough against breakage on installs but one of the reasons I use cat 5 is for the solid core effect
KEEP ON PULLING WIRE:D

You were off topic too, never once addressing speaRker cables

suprafantx

seafire wrote: »

On the pics I saw the twisted pairs and termination was wrong.Run all solid colours into one termination and run all striped colours into another termination.

I guess you are not talking about mine. The flash of camera made the picture looks like they mixed up but they are not.

timlitton

Conradicles wrote: »

That is TOO funny!

inspiredsports wrote: »

Ah, a graphics designer (with a great sense of humor) in our midst, I see.

lightman1 wrote: »

Somebody PLEASE print this up in poster size! I'll pay you for it.
That's a keeper.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I think this is the one that I want in poster size.

ben62670 wrote: »

I want one of those too. The only thing is I am dissapointed that my name didn't make it on there:(

Awwww shucks. Thanks.

I get bored sometimes and it seems these ads and pictures are the result. As far as printable versions... I'll see what I can do.

suprafantx

Finally, I was able to finish my cat 6 shielded speaker cable and did some listening tests and here is my impression to cat 6 shielded cable. For the low, I can not tell the difference with my other crappy speaker cables I bought from Fry's, Best Buy...For the high and mid, I found a big difference and the cat 6 shielded cable is the winner. My plan is only make one speaker cable for testing purpose but I end up with few of them. They are still in break in period so this is just my initial impression

F1nut

An audio friend sent this to me awhile back and I forgot to post it, so here it is.

Jesse, feel free to post all of it, some of it, or however you want to do it. I just want everyone to see how wrong this guy is....... as well as see the common sense which says it is not a very good idea to use that crap to make speaker cables!!!!! Mike


A look at the actual published numbers and specifications on the whole cat5 wire stupidity.

1. Let's look at the voltage drop numbers for a 12 foot run of Cat5 wire vs a few other cables. A 12 foot run of Cat5 cable at 4 amps A/C specifies a voltage drop of up to 20%, that's right 20 percent! This is mostly because while this wire is made to be able to handle a fairly high voltage level it is not designed to handle large amounts of current (amps). Now, let's look at the published numbers for some cables that are designed to be speaker cables. Let's use some Monster cable for an example. Monster cable says that the voltage drop for their 10ga. cable at 5 amps is a mere .05 volts over a 15 foot length and those numbers are for Monster cable! Some of the cables mentioned here as "rip off" or "stupid expensive" are almost truly lossless in this length. So looking at this comparison I think everyone that has common sense does not need to continue with part 1.

2. The published current handling specifications for Cat5 wire is just over .5 amps per strand giving you a grand total of just over 2 amps. Let's compare this to the amount of current that a 6 ga. PS Audio cable can carry. If you have not seen them let's just put it this way, it is larger than the main service feed cable for the 200 amp service coming into your house. Doing the math it would take approximately 100 runs of Cat5 wire to match the current carrying ability of a PS Audio Cable. Anyone who still wants to question this can just look at the electrode cable on your welder which will likely handle 240 amps or more and you will realize the PS cable is larger and heavier than your welders cable! This should certainly end current handling questions/numbers for part 2.

3. Now, let's compare the published specifications for delay in Cat5 cable and once again compare it to some actual speaker cable. (For those who don't know delay is the time difference that the signal takes to travel the fastest strand or pair vs. the slowest strand or pair measured in N/S.) The performance specifications and national installation code state Cat5 is allowed to have a delay of up to 548 N/S in a 30ft. run. They allow this amount of delay because Cat5 is designed to carry what is quite simply computer data, you can call it whatever you want, but it's not really more than that. Computers have provisions like time clocking and error correction to correct many things one of which is delay. Your speakers on the other hand are counting on all of the frequencies arriving with very very little delay from the lower freq's to the higher freq's and have no fixes or provisions to correct delay in any way shape or form. If parts of the signal do not arrive on time with the rest of the signal it can have many negative effects on what your ears hear. One good example of this is delay issues with subwoofers. The phase adjustment is now adjustable from 0 degrees to 180 degrees via a dial instead of the old switch that only gives you 2 choices 0 deg. or 180 deg. This came about because the I/C cables being used to send the signal to the subs were getting longer and longer which was resulting in delay issues because signal travels a 12 foot run of good speaker cable faster than it travels to the sub through a 30 foot interconnect. So the 0-180 dial allows the delay for the sub signal to be compensated for therefore it will be in proper time with the drivers in the main speakers. No offense, but anyone who can not understand this concept should probably go to the Bose site and just order something from them. Now, let's look at the published delay specs for a couple different makes of speaker cable. I was not able to find published delay numbers for a 30 foot run of speaker cable for obvious reasons, but one can still do the simple math. Cobalt cable specs for a 15 foot run of their premium speaker cable specifies a delay of a mere 5.2 N/S.... Extron cable shows a delay spec of 30 N/S which is six times the delay of the Cobalt cable. There was no formula for this, but if you figure that a 30 foot run of Cobalt cable will have double the delay of a 15 foot run the math is not too tough to calculate. If every additional 15 feet adds another 5.2 N/S you will discover that in order to match the max delay spec for Cat5 your run of Cobalt cable will be approximately 52 times longer than the 30 foot run of Cat5. Even if you find the math here to be total BS you can not deny the original delay numbers of up to 548 N/S for Cat5 and only a mere 5.2 N/S for 15 feet of Cobalt's good cable that is specifically designed to pass signal to speakers knowing that delay is not a good characteristic of speaker cable. These numbers are published specifications that can be easily referenced so this concludes part 3.

4. It is not a good idea to solder Cat5 cable and is actually against code in several states that have done their homework and have added this to their installation code for Cat5. I thoroughly enjoyed the picture of the super high quality bananas hacked onto the ends of the Cat5 that has pairs untwisted further than the published spec. which is 1 to 2 inches depending on who's Cat5 you are using. This will end part 4.

5. The last thing that was not addressed by Wiley Coyote, super cable genius, is the specification for Cat5 bend radius. If he had a degree he would know this and would not have bent up the cable like this. Once again, this is the easiest specification of Cat5 to find. The National Electric code specifies the per inch bend radius for Cat5 to be no more than 4 times the diameter of the cable which in this case works out to as follows. The diameter of the cable is .0201 and the allowance is 4 times that of the diameter which equals out to be .08. To put this in terms that most people will understand... a good rule of thumb is do not bend Cat5 more than approximately 45 degrees over a one inch length. Another thing regarding bend radius is when you take several pairs of Cat5 and twist or braid them as pictured I can guarantee the maximum allowed bend radius is being greatly exceeded down the entire length of the cable. I am not going to bother with explaining what too much bend does to Cat5, but feel free to look it up yourself using the references posted at the bottom. The last thing related to bend radius and termination is the specification which clearly says Cat5 cable can not be kinked or squished in any way. This instantly eliminates all of the ends which attach to the cable by inserting the cable into the hole and tightening a screw down on the cable therefore "Clamping" it in place. The installation code and specifications even states that wire ties must be left loose and may not be tightened to the point where the ties may distort the outer jacket in any way. This is why you see cables of this type laying loosely on the railroad track looking things called “bridges” instead of zip tied, and cable clamped everywhere. This concludes part 5.

I am not a member of this forum, but someone sent me a link to the stupidity being broadcast by "Dr. Cable" who claims to have worked with the cable companies. If he did work with any cable company I bet he was scrubbing their toilets at night! If this “Dr. Cable” guy actually knew anything he would have mentioned that you should try not to exceed the maximum bend radius when attempting to make your Cat5 cables. He also would have most certainly not have ignored the bend radius like he did while building his own cables!!! He would also have known there are only a limited number of approved connectors for Cat5 none of which use solder or clamping! He should also have mentioned the specification regarding the clamps, staples and zip ties. I have been to school for telecommunications equipment installations and I also have my Motorola cellular service certification. I was sent to Motorola school while I was working for Cellular One. Many of the specifications for Cat5 and other types have changed over time, and I do not claim to be the end all expert, but I learned a great deal of common sense things like the bend radius the first day of school! The numbers and codes are not hard to look up because building codes etc. change frequently. When I saw someone ask for some real numbers on Cat5 I could not take it anymore and put this together for you guys. I hope this clears up some of the special ed. stuff on using Cat5 for any type of high power audio application. Don't get me wrong it is perfectly O.K. to use it for a little pee wee single driver speaker in the ceiling over your kitchen sink that does not have to worry about anything but itself.... The bottom line is Cat5 cable is not designed to be fashioned into a braided rope style cable! If you want to make your own cables there are other types of wire which are much better suited for being made into cables. This should pretty effectively discredit the "cable Dr." for everyone to plainly see! This got way out of hand and I hope it can now go back to a discussion that is relevant and helps you guys...

Some of the sources you can use to verify the published performance, installation specifications, and installation codes for Cat5 are as follows..

National Electric Code and Installation Guidelines

The Handbook of Electric Tables and Formulas

The Hewlett Packard website

DarqueKnight

It always tickles me to see these naysayer "savants" call performance enthusiasts "fools" and "suckers" for investing in well engineered and well constructed cables that are designed for the preservation of audio signal integrity, then turn right around and run something worse than coat hanger wire between their amp and speakers. "Hey look everybody...I grabbed some cheap computer cable and made speaker cable with it". It seems that the ones who cry loudest about cable snake oil are always the ones that turn right around and indulge in this type of voodoo.

I'm just curious...are there any double blind studies out there that confirm that kitty kat kable sounds as good as, or better than a proper speaker cable?

Are there any peer reviewed studies out there that have verified with rigorous scientific methods that kitty kat kable performs as good as, or better than a proper speaker cable with regard to audio frequency response and noise characteristics?

I don't worry about these fools leading (too many) others astray. Anyone who keeps an open mind and who is willing to invest the proper amount of time in serious study will come to a good understanding...and to good sound.:)

Wiley Coyote...how appropriate.

BlueFox

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I'm just curious...are there any double blind studies out there that confirm that kitty kat kable sounds as good as, or better than a proper speaker cable?

"kitty kat kable"; sounds like a good name for a company. Of course, you need to be careful how you use the acronym.

CoolJazz

I especially got a kick and a good laugh out of the "I used Cat 6 because it's better than Cat 5"! What a hoot!

What makes 6 "better" than 5? Cause the designation number is bigger?

Cat 6 is spec'ed to a higher speed data transfer than Cat 5. If your trying to get above 100mb transfer speed, then that's cool. But what does this have to do with use as speaker cable??

They achieve the greater throughput by a number of little things, the primary of which is probably tighter tolerance on the twist rate and keeping the twist more uniform. This is all important stuff for what is essentially balanced transmission line theory. But not much to do with audio coupling.

Which brings up something else I haven't seen mentioned here....the twist rate is different for each pair of a Cat cable!! So if you use all four pair as it comes, then you've got a very nice time smear built into the cable by nature of having very different lengths of cable!! I counted the twist rate one time and if I recall correctly, the lowest rate was something like 27 twists a foot and the highest something like 43 a foot.

Also, the comment above about shielded cable. Did you wonder why typical speaker cable isn't shielded? Maybe you figured out something all the experts don't know??? Maybe you figured out how to neutralize the extra capacitance the shielding would add???

And....I've seen no mention above about concern of the type of jacket is used on the wire. It will vary a bit depending on manufacturer and the cost level the wire was made to. A tip would be to look into plenium rated wire and it's teflon jacket.

CoolJazz

seafire

F1nut wrote: »

An audio friend sent this to me awhile back and I forgot to post it, so here it is.

Having read this post my response.
1 Specified voltage drop is what is allowed for but not actual.Typical losses are at about 2-4% tested
2 Amps per strand are also "allowed for" in terms of a safety guideline.A single piece of cat 5 can easily handle 5 amps but is not recommended as it was not designed for this originally.This doesnt matter anyway because I use multiple strands that can comfortably handle the current in question.
3 I never advocated braiding.I will use multiple pieces of cat 5 still in their jackets. .
4 My speaker cables are no more than 8 feet long
5 Just how much current do you think a mid and tweeter draw?
6 Soldering of cat 5 is not recommended for computer network installations.This has no relevance with regards to using it in audio.
7 My best cat 5 cables use multiple strands of solid core twisted pairs for highs and mids(above 220hz) and thick gauge ofc copper multistrand on the lows(under 220hz).
8 Speaker phasing can still be out even using the best cable in the world depending on room acoustics speaker location room volume etc.Part of the joy of DIY cable is tweeking it until it sounds perfect with more ore less strands which directly affects phasing.
9 Bend radius is a specified installation guidline so that your cat 5 cable does not get damaged while installing through tight turns and nicks and so compromise signal strength and purity.It has no relevance to me because I do not braid the wires.
10 Cat 5 recommended termination length is directly related to maximizing noise rejection from the twisted pair.If terminated to long you lose the noise rejection because the wire is no longer in twisted pair,This is much more applicable in network applications where low voltage dc current is used and is very sensitive to noise interference.
Some food for thought.
Are the tracks on your xovers made from multi strand cable? Answer NO
Are voice coils in all our speakers wound with multistrand cable or silver for that matter? Answer NO
My theory is to try and transfer the signal from the amp(solid copper foil track) to the speaker xover(solid copper foil track and solid core wire) to the speaker coil (solid core copper wire).
My theory is tainted in that for maximum bass response heavy gauge ofc copper multistrand sounds better.However the opposite is true for the high end.I find solid core there gives faster and cleaner response
So in the end I sit with a midstream situation.
Ultimately I would love to use something like a 10-15 mm solid core"buss bar" on the bass but this is to damm unpractical

seafire

CoolJazz wrote: »

I especially got a kick and a good laugh out of the "I used Cat 6 because it's better than Cat 5"! What a hoot!

What makes 6 "better" than 5? Cause the designation number is bigger?

Cat 6 is spec'ed to a higher speed data transfer than Cat 5. If your trying to get above 100mb transfer speed, then that's cool. But what does this have to do with use as speaker cable??

They achieve the greater throughput by a number of little things, the primary of which is probably tighter tolerance on the twist rate and keeping the twist more uniform. This is all important stuff for what is essentially balanced transmission line theory. But not much to do with audio coupling.

Which brings up something else I haven't seen mentioned here....the twist rate is different for each pair of a Cat cable!! So if you use all four pair as it comes, then you've got a very nice time smear built into the cable by nature of having very different lengths of cable!! I counted the twist rate one time and if I recall correctly, the lowest rate was something like 27 twists a foot and the highest something like 43 a foot.

Also, the comment above about shielded cable. Did you wonder why typical speaker cable isn't shielded? Maybe you figured out something all the experts don't know??? Maybe you figured out how to neutralize the extra capacitance the shielding would add???

And....I've seen no mention above about concern of the type of jacket is used on the wire. It will vary a bit depending on manufacturer and the cost level the wire was made to. A tip would be to look into plenium rated wire and it's teflon jacket.

CoolJazz

In CAT5 the twists on all pairs are equal.I admit that on some cheaper cable this is not so.I therefore only use Gov spec tested cable from a reputable supplier and make all my cable from one batch.One also has to be very careful in not pulling to hard on the cable as this can stretch the twisted pairs putting them out of sync

lightman1

seafire wrote: »

In CAT5 the twists on all pairs are equal.I admit that on some cheaper cable this is not so.I therefore only use Gov spec tested cable from a reputable supplier and make all my cable from one batch.One also has to be very careful in not pulling to hard on the cable as this can stretch the twisted pairs putting them out of sync

How 'bout Gov-Specin' yer **** outta here?

treitz3

Yo' Seafart......You never read the posts that dispute your POV do you?

Who cares? Carry on wiff yo' bad self.

treitz3

She must be the pride of her homeroom. :rolleyes:

seafire

It's amazing.Laughable to say the least.
Your childish insults are the best.
I must be a big thorn in your side hehehehehe

ben62670

Report the troll.

Flash21

I can't believe 5 of you posted useless, pointless complaints after seafire posted something actually addressing the subject of the thread (whatever your opinion of it's accuracy)...you guys are just as big a problem in this thread as he is IMHO...

Lowell_M

I just swapped out my Canare Star-Quad wires in my 2-channel with the Signal Ultra Bi-wire cables from my HT. Don't know why I never did this before... Frank did an excellent job with the Signals. I like the sound of the Canare, but the Signals opened up the detail in my 2-channel rig a little more and solidified the soundstage a little bit in all directions. Very nice and easy tweak... and my ears can hear the difference. Bite me haters!

treitz3

Flash21 wrote: »

I can't believe 5 of you posted useless, pointless complaints after seafire posted something actually addressing the subject of the thread (whatever your opinion of it's accuracy)...you guys are just as big a problem in this thread as he is IMHO...

No, not at all. We have been there and done that with this jackass. We have given good input and good advice. We have asked the hard and simple questions.

Did he and some other loons actually read, comprehend and answer? Nope. They just keep spewing out the same crap that we have heard from countless others over the years. It gets old.

Now if he and others would actually like to have a gentleman's discussion about "spearker" cables, then that's one thing that would be welcome.....always, BUT when asked questions? They are deflected as if they weren't written. When asked for proof? Again, it's as if it wasn't asked.

All we get is the same old "shove it down everybody's throats" BS with nothing to back it up when we have done so on our part. Why wouldn't you expect us to toy with his sorry ****?

If you have noticed, the "sheep" of this forum hold a vast amount of experience and audio knowledge and at the same time, help when the situation is genuine. With this thread? Pffft!

If you don't know what I'm referring too, go back and review the entire thread again.

DarqueKnight

a_mattison wrote: »

Bite me haters!

Be careful of what you wish for...;)

Lowell_M

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Be careful of what you wish for...;)

I really tried to start out just a regular ol' positive thread about my cable swap but threw that in for good measure.

I'm on my third CD after the cable swap and couldn't be happier. I've listened to hours and hours of these same CD's in the old setup and can tell everybody without a doubt that the Signal Ultra Bi-wires blow my Canare wires away (and they really aren't bad wires either)

DarqueKnight

The differences are all in your mind.:p

Lowell_M

:eek:

DarqueKnight wrote: »

The differences are all in your mind.:p

My mind is pretty creative then. :cool::rolleyes:

The reason the Signals were in my HT is because I got them at a Polkfest and didn't really know anything about them. this was before I had my 2-channel rig and before I knew much about this. then I put together the LSi rig and built some CAnare Star Quad cables. that was a while ago and I just decided I'd try the Signal's up in the living room 2-channel. So it was a free tweak and i didn't expect much because nobody talks about the Signal speaker cables much. I'm telling you they are great wires!!

Lowell_M

Kex wrote: »

Are we to understand that you, by this statement, are admitting to a thus far undeclared fetish for some part of a_mattison's anatomy? If so (if I may be so bold), which part would that be?

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:;)

DarqueKnight

Keiko wrote: »

I really was hoping he had drowned.

C'mon...now. I know trolls can be annoying. But are they really any worse than ants at a picnic? Is being a pest worthy of death?

---

I have several cell phone videos of you stomping some poor hungry ants who dared infringe on your al fresco dining experiences. Were those pests worthy of death?

I don't think you can compare stomping insects to drowning a...tro...hmmmm....maybe Keiko a point.