Great Amercian Cars

TroyD

audiobliss wrote: »

Yeah, they sure have. I can't argue that quality and reliability have always been a strength with domestics, but it is certainly on the rise and, in my opinion, now is pretty much on par with most of the **** stuff.

The only problem is stupid average Joe consumer is brain washed to think the **** stuff is the best and worth its weight in gold, and won't hear of anything from America. So no one will buy anything domestic, but runs out to buy something from the ****. And the ****, having us stupid consumers under their thumb, raise their prices and let their quality go down (the only two factors they've ever had over domestics). But your stupid, misinformed, apathetic average Joe consumer still raises high the banner of Japanese automotive supremacy and shuns anything domestic.

Now we just have to sit back and see if the general populace will realize what's going on before there are no more domestic manufacturers left to choose from.

First of all, would you call someone a '****' to thier face? Thought not.

Second, I was buying/driving cars when half of you wound up as a brown stain on the mattress.

You do not have the capacity in ANY sense of the word to lecture me, or anyone else, on what we 'stupid American consumers' think, do, should think/should do.

The FACT is American cars over the past 30 years have NOT kept pace with Japanese cars in terms of value using any standard you care to apply. If the American consumer was snowed about anything, it was that we are/were somehow obligated to support bloated bureauacracies/unions that made second rate products out of a sense of patriotism. The American auto industry broke that trust. As I said, the onus of restoring that trust is on the screw-er, not the screw-ee.

I have spent the past 15 years in service of this country. Now, I don't feel that entitles me to much but I DO think that it entitles me to NOT be lectured to by a teenager about the percieved lack of patriotism by not allowing myself to be victimized by the American auto industry.

BDT

Mike682

GaryZ06 wrote: »

Bottom line...American Muscle...new or old....Rules

They have and always will:D

madmax

I have to say I've had more fun with my "****" car than most any other I've had for a long time. They have something going for them for sure. I've become so sick of all the "standard" problems american cars give you. I got a whole garage full of chevy replacement parts because to drive one daily you need to have spare stuff, and lots of it.
madmax

dragon1952

I had a '73 Dodge Challenger as my first 'real' car. Bought it a year old with 16K on it when I first went in the service. Nice car. My 'first' car was a used '65 Ford Fairlane I bought for $300. Kept blowing water pumps. I traded that for a beat-up '64 T-Bird. That had bucket seats and a space age center console! It weighed about 4500 lbs and had a 390 with a huge 4-barrel and when you stepped on it you could literally hear the carb sucking the gas in. Ah the good ole days.

Face

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Ok fill me in on odd fire and even fire Buick V6 the old 231ci one.

Follow the link I posted on the previous page.

jcaut

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Ok fill me in on odd fire and even fire Buick V6 the old 231ci one.

These were the same basic motor. Because of an inherent unbalance that dated back to the inception of the motor - two cylinders lobbed off of a V8- the engine had an un-even firing order and a corresponding roughness/balance problem. They fixed it by redesigning the crankshaft into a split-pin design and making corresponding changes to the flywheel and firing order. Thus the "even-fire" name. I think this happened around 1977 but I'm not sure.

And Troy, you make good points and I agree with you on most everything you said, but pick a car other than the Corvette to use as an example. I had a '74 and its fit and finish weren't any better than the '75-up cars you mention. Once production shifted to the Bowling Green plant (late '81, I think), the cars were pretty well put together. Quirky interior design in the C4 for sure, and "shake your teeth and anything not riveted on, loose" ride-- but the cars, especially from about '88 and especially especially the '93-96-- pretty good cars, IMO of course. Besides that, it's a low volume, specialty, love it-or-hate it type car and therefore just not a good example. I've got an '88, BTW.

Corvette freak Jason

Shizelbs

Anyone got $50k to spare? I mean, I've had to live with this feminine name of mine. I should at the very least get the car, right?

madmax

Shizelbs wrote: »

Anyone got $50k to spare? I mean, I've had to live with this feminine name of mine. I should at the very least get the car, right?

Absolutely!
madmax

rskarvan

TroyD wrote: »

As far a skaravan, go ahead and continue to throw your arm out of joint patting yourself on the back for the great job the UAW does.....and I'll LAUGH when the last rites are given to the American auto industry.
BDT

First off Troy... I hope you have a grand child that loves cars and dreams of designing and building them. Then, you'll have to get on a Boeing 747 and travel 13 hours to Narita Airport in Tokyo, Japan so that you can see him do what he loves to do what many Americans have enjoyed doing their entire career - build Great Automobiles.

The future that you give this kid... is one where he is forced to work in a service industry because his Grand Dad (and those like him) didn't have enough of a long-term vision to support the industries that AMERICA built.

So... I believe in Supporting America by purchasing GREAT AMERICAN PRODUCTS. Classic Polk Speakers were built in the USA. Thiel is built in the USA. Krell is built in the USA. I support AMERICA with American earned dollars spent on American built products.

But then again.... nobody is as American as you. Right?

disneyjoe7

jcaut wrote: »

These were the same basic motor. Because of an inherent unbalance that dated back to the inception of the motor - two cylinders lobbed off of a V8- the engine had an un-even firing order and a corresponding roughness/balance problem. They fixed it by redesigning the crankshaft into a split-pin design and making corresponding changes to the flywheel and firing order. Thus the "even-fire" name. I think this happened around 1977 but I'm not sure.

And Troy, you make good points and I agree with you on most everything you said, but pick a car other than the Corvette to use as an example. I had a '74 and its fit and finish weren't any better than the '75-up cars you mention. Once production shifted to the Bowling Green plant (late '81, I think), the cars were pretty well put together. Quirky interior design in the C4 for sure, and "shake your teeth and anything not riveted on, loose" ride-- but the cars, especially from about '88 and especially especially the '93-96-- pretty good cars, IMO of course. Besides that, it's a low volume, specialty, love it-or-hate it type car and therefore just not a good example. I've got an '88, BTW.

Corvette freak Jason

Well on this subject I always felt that a 60 degree V block was a better design then the 90 degree V block. The 60 degree V block the late 90's Chevy 2.8 / 3.1 engines over the Buick 3.8 or Chevy 4.3 V6. Given the fact we are talking 4 cycle engines so 720 degree complete firing rotation and 6 goes in to 720 sweet as 60 degree not the 90 degree. So any 60 degree block V6 was a better design at lease on paper. What Chevy or GM did to it after that, well you know the story....

audiobliss

Dang. I just don't have the energry to address any of that. And sure, go ahead and say that it's because I've been destroyed, slaughtered, annihilated. Whatever.

Simply put, you've taken my words out of context, twisted them a bit, and read a WHOLE NEW attitude into them.

Entire, firey, viscious arguments about absolutely nothing often start that way.

disneyjoe7

Troy, obviously been burned by American built cars like most over the age of 30 have. Sad but I feel the younger ones here well have a hard lesson or two in their lives about cars before long.

markmarc

It seems to me that Detroit's problem is that both management and labor have been too focused on each other as enemies rather than partners. This forced them into focusing on short-sighted goals rather then long-term solutions. You can't tell me the the guy on the line doesn't know that some construction is faulty while putting something together. Or that the constant retructuring leaves managers thinking of ways to save their skin ahead of building the best product.
I highly suggest everyone read Lee Iacocca's autobio, an underlying theme is that true car guys were forced aside to make room for bean counters and lawyers.
If Detroit is to survive a couple of things need to happen: One, retirement costs need to be switched over to 401K style plans. Two, massive bonuses for management failure must end. Three, true car guys in control. Four, fewer choices, and a higher standard of long-term quality, i.e. more durable components, thicker gaskets, attention to detail.

TroyD

Nobody love thier country more than I do, that's for damn sure.

If I have a grandchild and he winds up a member of the UAW, I'll kick him in the shins.

See, this is what you don't get. The very industry you love is doing everything it can, all but ENSURING that doesn't remain competitive. Americans are buying cars, WHY ARE THEY NOT BUYING AMERICAN??? Answer: consumers feel that they don't get value for thier money.

Don't preach to me about MY responsibility to the American auto industry while the beauracracy that runs it and the UAW continue to bleed it dry and leave the consumer holding the bag.

There are LOTS of people that are as American as I am, many of them have different viewpoints and that's fine. The problem, Ron, is you and many like you have your head in the sand (and your **** sticking in the air). You folks have steadfastly REFUSED to face up to the self-induced problems that are leading to the demise of your industry. You want me to hold your hand while you are heading off a cliff? What's so American about that?? That's stupidity. As I said, the American consumer is voting with it's pocketbook in terms of the American auto industry. Go ahead and blame me. Fine, however, that ain't solving your problems.

Oh, and my grandchild will have the opportunity to be successful in whatever he choses to do, hopefully because he has faith and confidence in HIS abilities. Not dependent on collective bargaining through a union.

TroyD

audiobliss wrote: »

Simply put, you've taken my words out of context, twisted them a bit, and read a WHOLE NEW attitude into them.

Entire, firey, viscious arguments about absolutely nothing often start that way.

If I quote the ENTIRE post, how can it be out of context???

****, stupid American consumer.......THINK BEFORE YOU POST.

EDIT:

AB, I have no doubt that you are a nice kid and I like you...however, think about what you post.

BDT

TroyD

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Troy, obviously been burned by American built cars like most over the age of 30 have. Sad but I feel the younger ones here well have a hard lesson or two in their lives about cars before long.

It's not that I've been burned, per se, but I've owned both foreign and US autos. Overall, the foreign cars have performed better, more reliable, less costly to operate and were worth more when I sold them than domestics.

I am not alone in that feeling. I WANT to love American cars but I don't buy this whole schpiel that I'm somehow 'obligated' to reward mediocrity out of some sense of patriotism.

Here is what I've owned:
1981 Ford Escort
1985 Chevy Spectrum (Isuzu)
1987 Merc Topaz GL
1992 Ford Ranger
1989 Chevy Beretta (1st wife car) UNQUALIFIED POS.
1995 Nissan Pathfinder
1975 Volvo 164e
1999 Dodge Ram

1994 Pontiac Firebird (HUGE pile of crap)
1996 Infiniti I30
2004 Kia Sorento (these were all Wendi's cars )

The Escort and Ranger were POS's. The Beretta wasn't even a car. it was a **** with wheels.
The Dodge has been OK, I've had it 8 years but it has been FAR from trouble free. Transmission at 45K, A/C compressor, water pump (2), power steering unit, several A/C switches etc etc....

The Topaz, I LOVED that car. The A/C never worked (I lived in Maine so no biggie) the cruise never worked.....but, man, I loved that car. I put over 100K on that car in college with no major issues....well, except the time I trusted the emergency brake.

The Pathfinder was awesome. The Volvo, despite over 300K, all I did to it was a new fan motor. Wendi's Infiniti was problem free until it hit 160K, then it lost a water pump and radiator. the Kia has been great, blown a couple of tail lights and a power seat motor. None of these cars used oil.

The other thing is that I've found that warranty work is MUCH easier with foreign cars. Ford and Dodge, it's like pulling TEETH for them to do warranty work.

BDT

disneyjoe7

Troy, yes feel 100% of what you're saying. Sad to me the auto industry in dieing and I don't feel that this country has the capability to make anything need in time of war. God forbid well are in world war 3 we can't relay on the **** to make it for us. And sad to think the **** would build it better, then we could. I can see the argument about **** made Tanks vs. US made Tanks now.

TroyD

** could we NOT say '****' ?***

I don't want to be the PC police and I'm FAR from a saint, but I think that we don't need to say that....I mean, why blame anyone for being successful doing what we USED to do. Improvise, adapt and overcome.

I agree Joe....it saddens me that we have a once proud industry going down the tubes. What REALLY saddens me is that there are a bunch of morons sitting on top of this particular **** waving American flags as it's circling the toilet bowl on it's way down the drain.

Ron, I'm glad you like what you do and are proud of what you do. That's cool. However, look in the mirror and say that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the American auto industry. If you can say that with a straight face.....

BDT

bobman1235

TroyD wrote: »

Nobody love thier country more than I do, that's for damn sure.

If I have a grandchild and he winds up a member of the UAW, I'll kick him in the shins.

See, this is what you don't get. The very industry you love is doing everything it can, all but ENSURING that doesn't remain competitive. Americans are buying cars, WHY ARE THEY NOT BUYING AMERICAN??? Answer: consumers feel that they don't get value for thier money.

Don't preach to me about MY responsibility to the American auto industry while the beauracracy that runs it and the UAW continue to bleed it dry and leave the consumer holding the bag.

There are LOTS of people that are as American as I am, many of them have different viewpoints and that's fine. The problem, Ron, is you and many like you have your head in the sand (and your **** sticking in the air). You folks have steadfastly REFUSED to face up to the self-induced problems that are leading to the demise of your industry. You want me to hold your hand while you are heading off a cliff? What's so American about that?? That's stupidity. As I said, the American consumer is voting with it's pocketbook in terms of the American auto industry. Go ahead and blame me. Fine, however, that ain't solving your problems.

Oh, and my grandchild will have the opportunity to be successful in whatever he choses to do, hopefully because he has faith and confidence in HIS abilities. Not dependent on collective bargaining through a union.

You're a poet Troy. I say that without a hint of sarcasm. Well said.

heiney9

rskarvan wrote: »

First off Troy... I hope you have a grand child that loves cars and dreams of designing and building them. Then, you'll have to get on a Boeing 747 and travel 13 hours to Narita Airport in Tokyo, Japan so that you can see him do what he loves to do what many Americans have enjoyed doing their entire career - build Great Automobiles.

The future that you give this kid... is one where he is forced to work in a service industry because his Grand Dad (and those like him) didn't have enough of a long-term vision to support the industries that AMERICA built.

So... I believe in Supporting America by purchasing GREAT AMERICAN PRODUCTS. Classic Polk Speakers were built in the USA. Thiel is built in the USA. Krell is built in the USA. I support AMERICA with American earned dollars spent on American built products.

But then again.... nobody is as American as you. Right?

What a pant load. I buy the products that appeal to me and are reliable and dependable, if that's an American made product so be it. If not, then have an american manufacturer build/design something worthwhile. Blind patriotism is about the stupidist thing I've ever heard of.

H9

heiney9

audiobliss wrote: »

Simply put, you've taken my words out of context, twisted them a bit, and read a WHOLE NEW attitude into them.

Pot...........Kettle..........Black :rolleyes: .

audiobliss

heiney9 wrote: »

Pot...........Kettle..........Black :rolleyes: .

Could you just not come up with anything better than that? I just re-read all my posts in this thread, and that could not be any farther from the truth.

Show me ONE PLACE in this thread where I have specifically addressed anything anyone has said. I simply stated my opinion on the first page (or was it second), discussed the Turbo TransAm for a few posts, and then attempted to defend my opinion (or more like it me, as no one is content with addressing the subject, but likes to attack the person).

sucks2beme

The unions are fading. They no longer can shut down industry. They have been bending a lot more in recent years. I have never worked in a union enviroment. Yet, many of the same quality problems were present at places I worked. WHy?
Some of my current customers still do manufacturing in the U.S. How?
They practice quality feedback. They improve the process. They do finished product feedback. NOTE: this is an important one.
This is what separates Hyundai from Kia. Both are Korean. Both started out making crappy cars. Both introduced extended warranties.
Hyundai started practicing extreme automation. This required very consistant
parts quality. Better parts quality improved and enabled more automation.
Net effect: a better car.
Unions can hamper this process. But management has to buy into it.
Detroit management refuses to deal with the problem. Data on field
problems with autos is out there. Son #1 can rattle off data he has on
car models. His business has to know. The same data could be used to
make Detroit cars better. IT's what Toyota does. Yet, year after year
cars have the same problems. Any mechanic could rattle off the top 10
problems of a Ford F150. Year after year it looks remarkably the same.
Yet, year after year it remains.
The original purpose of this thread was to celibrate the good products
out of Detroit. No one said they didn't have problems. NO NEED TO KEEP BITCHING EVERY 10 SECONDS ABOUT. I THINK WE EFFIN GET IT!
Make F150's in China. Net effect. IT WILL STILL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS.
Until Detroit decides to look at the problem, and practice quality feedback in production at all levels, including field service, Same ol' same ol'.

Back to the real pupose of this thread: American Iron.
Son #1 and his toy.

rskarvan

Troy.... do you realize that many, many UAW factories have re-tooled their factories in time of war to produce military arms. The very same engineers that design car components designed automatic weapons that helped this country win wars.

If you embrace America... you embrace ALL OF AMERICA. Flint Michigan needs your support every bit as much as Seoul, Korea. Certainly you understand the importance of team-work.

I honestly think you have mis-judged the american auto industry and their role in society. It wasn't too long ago that GM was the 20th largest economy in the world (ranking just behind Italy). Economies of that scale are much more complicated than simply building a quality vehicle (an easy task). GM supports entire communities across this country. Good communities. Janesville Wisconsin would be non-existant if it weren't for the fact that they produce GM's large SUV's. That's not the boys in Detroit. Those are Cheese-head Packer Fans that are every bit as american as you.

I'm not asking you to give the UAW charity money. I'm simply asking that you deeply consider the long-term effects of the decisions that you make when you purchase a vehicle.

Think about the 5 year old kid in Detroit on Welfare because his Daddy got laid off (again) from the century-year-old Buick Factory.

Or, stay in your own little comfy world where Flint, MI might as well be another country.

sucks2beme

rskarven
Please post a picture. All posts on this thread should include Detroit iron!!!:D
That should stop all arguments.

rskarvan

A picture says it all!

MSALLA

I said this before. American cars were very bad until the early 90's with afew exceptions. Since then they have really rasied the bar. The problem is there reputation has never been repaired. But you can't compare a Beretta to an Infinity either.

bobman1235

rskarvan wrote: »

Troy.... do you realize that many, many UAW factories have re-tooled their factories in time of war to produce military arms. The very same engineers that design car components designed automatic weapons that helped this country win wars.

If you embrace America... you embrace ALL OF AMERICA. Flint Michigan needs your support every bit as much as Seoul, Korea. Certainly you understand the importance of team-work.

I honestly think you have mis-judged the american auto industry and their role in society. It wasn't too long ago that GM was the 20th largest economy in the world (ranking just behind Italy). Economies of that scale are much more complicated than simply building a quality vehicle (an easy task). GM supports entire communities across this country. Good communities. Janesville Wisconsin would be non-existant if it weren't for the fact that they produce GM's large SUV's. That's not the boys in Detroit. Those are Cheese-head Packer Fans that are every bit as american as you.

I'm not asking you to give the UAW charity money. I'm simply asking that you deeply consider the long-term effects of the decisions that you make when you purchase a vehicle.

Think about the 5 year old kid in Detroit on Welfare because his Daddy got laid off (again) from the century-year-old Buick Factory.

Or, stay in your own little comfy world where Flint, MI might as well be another country.

Essentially what you're saying is that, people shoudl buy what THEY DEEM to be sub-par automobiles - the second biggest purchase most people make in their lives - that they should buy these vehicles that do not make them as happy as a better-built Japanese counterpart, just for charity? To support a community that is making an inferior product?

What makes AMERICA so great in a business is its capitalism. Capitalism isn't "buy from this vendor because they're American." It's "buy from this vendor because they offer the best value." If Flint Michigan, no matter what country it's in, can't compete, they lose. That's teh system we created in this country. If they want to be a viable community based on the auto industry, they need to step the **** up and do something to make money. And that something is make a quality, reasonably priced product.

Every time someone gives you an intelligent response all you do is call them anti-American and say something ridiculous and completely unbased in reality. You say you don't want to give the UAW charity, but you want to consider the societal ramifications of an auto purchase? Huh? If you're buying a car for any reason other than the car itself, it seems like it's charity to me.

You gotta wake up, bro.

RuSsMaN

Why can't we just post related to the original thread? Why is it every time American autos are brought up it ends up in a stupid argument?

What is this, the new cable debate?

shack

The US auto makers have built great cars in the past, still make a few and COULD make them all the time. I don't doubt that some US auto workers take pride in their work. The US autos of today are decent quality and can be a good value because of the lack of demand at times. I was able to get my last US car at $6,500 off sticker and the sticker was under $20,000. It is a good car and has given me little trouble in the 4+ years and 80,000 miles I've driven it. I will say it is a Ford with a Mazda drivetrain.

The US auto industry is imploding and there is lots of blame to go around. Managment and labor share...but I have to give extra shares to the UAW. While some of the rank and file may give a damn (with heavy emphasis on some) the leadership of the UAW only cares what happens to their pocket. By design they are there to protect thier own. UAW contracts promote mediocracy and add thousands of dollars to each vehicle that made.

Management used to be populated by "car" guys. Now the US auto makers are run by bean counters and marketers. Sure they are strapped by some constraints, like aging factories and bloated labor contracts but they could do a much better job.

As far as "Buy Only US Built"... it is an outdated, isolationist idea that has little or no value. Would you like to know which car has more US made parts...the Toyota Avalon or or the Chrysler PT Cruiser. The Kentucky built Avalon has 71% vs the 60% PT Cruiser. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW and Mercedes-Benz all have part and assembly plants in the US and the vehicles made here are of good quality. Better management and they don't put up with UAW BS.

It is a world industry...The current Mustang (can't get much more American than a Mustang) was designed by....Hau Thai-Tang...born in Vietnam. If the US auto industry wants to be as good as the rest of the world both in reality and perception...They must change they way they do business and do it BETTER. That includes management and labor...and hopefully the UAW will go the way of the dinosaurs and become extinct.