Great Amercian Cars

disneyjoe7

audiobliss wrote: »

From wikipedia, a 301ci turbocharged V8 was optional in 1979 and was the standard engine in 1980. When you consider the alternative was the 305, I hope everybody chose the 301!

Then in 1989 you had the LD5, which was a 3.8L turbocharged V6 putting out 250 hp and 340 ft·lb.

Very interesting.

Who made the 301? I knew Pontiac made a 301 but that was a sad little bother to their earlier big bothers 400 / 428 / 455 engines.

audiobliss

Beats me. All this is new info to me. I just grabbed that info off wikipedia.

bobman1235

audiobliss wrote:

The only problem is stupid average Joe consumer is brain washed to think the **** stuff is the best and worth its weight in gold, and won't hear of anything from America. So no one will buy anything domestic, but runs out to buy something from the ****. And the ****, having us stupid consumers under their thumb, raise their prices and let their quality go down (the only two factors they've ever had over domestics). But your stupid, misinformed, apathetic average Joe consumer still raises high the banner of Japanese automotive supremacy and shuns anything domestic.

Yay, you love America. I love America too. Greatest country on Earth. I'm not so much of a cheerleader that I'm going to blindly say that our cars are better just because they're American. I love how you mock people for being sheep for being informed consumers, while you just wave your American flag and claim American cars are fantastic because... they're from here? Are you serious? Every measurable category says you're wrong. ON AVERAGE, and there are exceptions, Japanese cars test better in almost every way. More economical, better fuel economy, quieter ride, better build quality, better reliability numbers, better resale value, better longevity.... how many of these do you need to hear before you can admit the possibility that you're wrong?

The ONLY thing you have going for you is righteous indignation, and some whacked sense of patriotism. So be careful with your name calling.

audiobliss

Well, for starters, 'righteous indignation' is ill-fitting in this case because I'm far from worked up enough to warrant that title. I'm not mad about it. Well, ok...not that mad about it.

Patriotism could possibly have something to do with me in the future choosing to buy American instead of foreign, but it has nothing to do with the ideas I'm expressing in this thread.

So, no, I'm not blindly waving my American flag in support of domestic automobiles. Also, nowhere did I say that American cars are superior. I simply stated that, in my opinion, the general quality and reliability of domestic automobiles has drastically improved here recently due to the influx of then-better imports. It was a case of suck it up and get better or flop. And I'm reading the situation as both are happening.

So, while I quote no numbers, reports, or 'facts' in my argument (neither do you, might I add), I also don't base my opinions on mere patriotism or blind brand loyalty, and nor do I blatantly state one is far and away superior to the other.

In self-evaluating my opinion, I think it's rather balanced.

hearingimpared

audiobliss wrote: »

stupid average Joe

You've officially offended me!!!:D

jcaut

The 301 was actually a Pontiac engine. I believe it was the last actual Pontiac V-8 in production.

Put me down as another person who has, in general, had better luck with domestics than I have with imports. I've actually owned Toyotas and Nissans, and I've done a lot of work to my sister's Honda.

Honest truth: Car I've had least trouble with was a Camaro ( :eek: ) (built in Canada), and the car I've had the most trouble with would be a toss-up between a Corolla and the Olds Intrigue (though I really liked that Intrigue and thus would have been willing to put up with a little more). All were purchased new and driven under roughly the same conditions for roughly the same numbers of miles. The Corolla was a '90 model, Camaro was a '95 V-6 model and the Intrigue was a '98. I've had (still have one) V-8 Camaros that have also been realtively trouble-free. My 97 LT1 developed a minor intake manifold oil leak (common problem) and my 2000 LS1 has been completely flawless but doesn't have many miles on it.

Quality has many facets. I think that quality control, and thus, consistency, is one area where most domestics still lag behind the Japanese cars. IOW, I might get a great example of a given domestic car while my neighbor might have nothing but trouble with the same model. It always amazes me, particularly with GM products, that so many examples of fine engineering and so many examples of "duh! Did they not even test this?!" can coexist on the same car. I think that's either the result of corporate bean-counting, or too many people with their fingers in the designs, or both.

Also, people "see" quality in different ways.

disneyjoe7

Yes the 301 was the last engine Pontiac ever built the last year maybe 1982 or 83? They made the 301 and a 280 something engine, a bit of a heavy engine when compared to the Chevy 305 which is a better engine IMHO. But being a hard core Pontiac lover stating that goes against my grain, still own a Pontiac 428 engine which is in various pieces in the garage as I type this.

And now you couldn't give me a GM anything over the 72 model year or so.

Systems

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

And now you couldn't give me a GM anything over the 72 model year or so.

I like several new GM products and the top of the list would be the GMC Sierra Denali.I have seen a few around and for a truck they look sweet.

ben62670

America has some of the crappiest cars out there, but they have some very good ones too. When it comes time to get them fixed American cars are typically much cheaper to fix, and the parts are readily available. I am driving a Pontiac grad prix with 155k on it. I get 27 city with my driving style, and 33 on the highway. Very comfortable car. I have also had 2 t birds 89 and 94 that were great cars minus the egr valves. I have had many ford trucks. I like to be able to get starters for less than $60, radiators for $200. Alternators for $65, and so on, and so on. I am not easy on vehicles, and the mid to late 80's really trashed the American view on our vehicles. I drive my cars into the ground. When I am done I won't even sell them, because they are not worth the money to get them right.
Ben

sucks2beme

Interesting nobody has listed one of the all time favorites.
late 80's 5.0 Mustangs.
Never had one, neither did my sons. But what a great budget go fast car.
Nothing fancy. Do your homework, save some money, bolt on some speed.
Everyone knows how to make them fast. The budget WAS the only limit.
Yes, there were plenty of doofs that screwed up because they didn't
plan or research. Not to worry. The next guy would pick it up cheap and start over.
No neon, stupid spoilers,or **** pipes.

Primer was always my favorite color. Go fast today, looking pretty can
wait!

rskarvan

I love the 80's Mustang 5.0's (especially the GT). What a rocket of a motor!!! And, an excellent value at the time. 225HP for $19K in an LX 5.0

Jstas

GMC Syclone.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMC_Syclone

It has a fraternal twin in the GMC Typhoon which is essentially a GMC Jimmy with the Syclone drivetrain and bodykit. There is alot more to it though and they are easily modifieble with many examples running 10-9 second 1/4 mile times.

GMC Typhoon



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMC_Typhoon

Oh yeah, what's so special? AWD and a turbocharged 4.3L V6 mated to a 700R4 transmission. The engine put out about 280 under-rated horses. The Borg-Warner transfer case split power 35/65 front/rear. The thing was a little beast and it would scoot with the best of them. It cornered like it was on rails too. The Syclone obtained a 0-60 mph in 4.8 seconds and a quarter-mile run in 13.08 sec @ 100.44 mph as tested by Sport Truck magazine in 1990.


The Buick Grand National used a 3.8L V6 which is essentially a corporate GM 305 with two cylinders chopped off. A 305 is similar to the 350, it has a shorter stroke but overall is the same basic design. The reason the 3.8 and the 4.3 us different internals is the same as the 305/350. However, the 4.3L is a truck engine so it has beefier parts plus the longer stroke than the 3.8L. Otherwise, they are essentially the same basic engine. Just like the 305/350 relationship is based on the Small-Block Chevy design. For another example, the Ford 260/289/302/351W are all the same basic Windsor design with small differences that can make parts uninterchangeable. Otherwise, they are the same engine family. The T-Type though, didn't get the all-black treatment, fancy badging or custom interior. The T-Type was a standard Regal with the turbocharged 3.8L V6 from the Grand National but unlike the GN, it had an option for t-tops.

The same engine was used in a less famous Pontiac Firebird GTA TTA and a Indy 500 Pace Car version of the Firebird both of which which could blow the doors off of every other Pontiac Firebird at the time. At one point, it was the fastest prodiuction car available.

Buick Grand National



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Grand_National

Info on the T-Type: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Type


Pontiac Firebird GTA TTA



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Trans_Am

Hope that straightens out some of this "misinformation" that has been complained about.

jcaut

Jstas wrote: »

The Buick Grand National used a 3.8L V6 which is essentially a corporate GM 305 with two cylinders chopped off.

I think there's some more misinformation there.

The 3.8 doesn't have much in common with a Chevrolet 305 (the "corporate 305") which itself is a smaller bore version of the Chevy 350. The stroke is the same, at 3.48 inches.

The Buick 3.8L V6, and all the various 231, 3800 etc. names for it, basic design dates back to the early 60's Buick 215 V8, minus two cylinders. It existed in a couple of displacements with bore and stroke increases, but the 231 cu. in. or 3.8L version was arrived at by increasing the bore to match the Buick 350 V8.

The Chevy 4.3 V-6 as used in the Syclone and Typhoon, is basically a Chevy 350 with two cylinders lobbed off.

Jason

hearingimpared

rskarvan wrote: »

I love the 80's Mustang 5.0's (especially the GT). What a rocket of a motor!!! And, an excellent value at the time. 225HP for $19K in an LX 5.0

Well we finally agree on something. I bought one for my wife in 1983 after my son was born. It was kind of a, "sorry about all the pain" type of thing. LOL!

bobman1235

I would never buy a Mustang because I think Detroit culture is disgusting.

heiney9

Some light reading:

TUSTIN, CA -- A study released today by noted automotive consulting firm AutoPacific, Inc. summarizes the results of AutoPacific's Image and Consideration Tracking Study that will help manufacturers measure and manage their image.

1,254 VehicleVoice panelists responded to an Internet survey concerning their opinion of automakers in the USA. The key question in the VehicleVoice survey was whether the respondent's opinion of a manufacturer had changed since this time last year. AutoPacific received over 5,000 comments concerning these manufacturers.

The most improved manufacturer is Hyundai Motor Corporation. Comments surrounding the performance of Hyundai give Hyundai credit for substantially improved styling, high durabilty/quality/reliability, a strong value message and a great warranty program.

The opinion of the Japanese Big Three was higher than a year ago. The opinion of Toyota revolves around durability/quality/reliability, value and its hybrid technology. On the negative side, Toyota takes some flack for building a new "gas guzzling" big pickup truck at a new plant in Texas and having bland styling. The opinion of Honda is about durability/quality/reliability, value and concern for the environment. Nissan's scores for leading-edge styling, innovative technologies and good DQR somewhat offset by quality concerns for its large trucks.

The opinion of Volkswagen improved getting credit for its exterior and interior styling, interior materials and technology. These positive perceptions are offset by a reputation for poor reliability and deteriorating value story. Throughout the comments on Volkswagen were positive comments about Audi, "the new BMW."

BMW is rated the most pretentious of the manufacturers but gets good credit for its styling and technology. BMW's head stylist Chris Bangle was mentioned frequently. Negative comments about Bangle contend he has ruined BMW styling. Others credit him for the best styling in the industry. But one thing's certain, the panelists universally hate BMW's iDrive system.

The opinion of General Motors deteriorated over the past year, but not to the extent of Ford and Chrysler. This may be because the media feeding frenzy directed at GM was retargeted at Ford and most recently at Chrysler. VehicleVoice panelists give GM credit for improving products, better styling, better interior designs and using better materials. GM's new 100,000-mile warranty also received positive reviews.

The opinion of Ford Motor Company has deteriorated due to concerns about Ford's management and leadership, its financial situation, hourly and salaried staff cuts, and questions whether Ford has the resources necessary to develop high quality products. It appears that Ford's new Fusion/Milan/MKZ/Edge/MKX vehicles have struck a positive chord with panelists.

The most deterioration in opinion was for Chrysler Group. While Chrysler gets credit for great styling on the 300/Magnum/Charger, panelists criticize the styling of its other products as lackluster. The HEMI is praised for its image and performance and castigated for being a gas-guzzler. Chrysler is perceived as being behind in alternative fuel vehicles -- especially hybrids. But the biggest negative is that DaimlerChrysler put Chrysler Group up for sale and that a buyer has not yet been announced. There are negative comments about the "take-over" of Chrysler by Daimler-Benz. There are several comments to the effect "Why would anyone want a Chrysler product if even Daimler doesn't want it?"

AutoPacific is a future-oriented automotive marketing and product-consulting firm with headquarters in Tustin, California, with an affiliate office in the Detroit area.

To weigh in with comments concerning these results, you can comment on the VehicleVoice blog site, http://blog.vehiclevoice.com/.

hearingimpared

bobman1235 wrote: »

I would never buy a Mustang because I think Detroit culture is disgusting.

Was that necessary?

Sami

hearingimpared wrote: »

Was that necessary?

Maybe not but it was funny. You might have missed the thread about GM being #2:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=627224&postcount=90

bobman1235

hearingimpared wrote: »

Was that necessary?

It was only a joke, see Sami's link.

Face

jcaut wrote: »

I think there's some more misinformation there.

The 3.8 doesn't have much in common with a Chevrolet 305 (the "corporate 305") which itself is a smaller bore version of the Chevy 350. The stroke is the same, at 3.48 inches.

The Buick 3.8L V6, and all the various 231, 3800 etc. names for it, basic design dates back to the early 60's Buick 215 V8, minus two cylinders. It existed in a couple of displacements with bore and stroke increases, but the 231 cu. in. or 3.8L version was arrived at by increasing the bore to match the Buick 350 V8.

The Chevy 4.3 V-6 as used in the Syclone and Typhoon, is basically a Chevy 350 with two cylinders lobbed off.

Jason

Thanks for clearing that up Jason. Here's a great page for Buick's 3.8.
http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/

hearingimpared

bobman1235 wrote: »

It was only a joke, see Sami's link.

I thought it was about something else. I remember that statement.

PhantomOG

what happened to the Yaris thread? Did the resident Club Polk racist manage to get that one closed as well?

ohskigod

I never knew the Yaris was such a focal point for controversy......LOL

PhantomOG

ohskigod wrote: »

I never knew the Yaris was such a focal point for controversy......LOL

Well, you know the Yaris is a foreign made car so the resident Club Polk racist was going to make a stink. I guess people fed the troll too much and he managed to get it closed.

Jstas

Face wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up Jason. Here's a great page for Buick's 3.8.
http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/

Hmmm...to both Face and Jason,

While the Buicks used the Buick V6 up to 83, if I remember correctly, when the Buick Regal switched to Fuel Injection in 1984, they switched to the GM corporate V6 which was the same 3800 in Buicks, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, Chevies and Cadillacs. They were based off of the Buick 225 V6 design but bore was increased to match the GM 350ci V8 to make 231ci and that 3800cc displacement. That 3800 is what the 84-87, all-black GN's turbo'ed V6 was based on and what the Firebird GTA TTA's Turbo'ed V6 was based on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine#3800


The GN's that are referred to in the posted link are all pre-1984 models and use the Turbo 6 symbol which was for both the Grand National and the T-Type Regals. Then again, your linked website has this to say about the GN:

1. What is that? It's an '82 Buick Grand National.
2. But Buick didn't make a GN in '82. It's the first year for the GN.
3. They only made them in 84-87. No, it's the first year for the GN.
4. You mean it's a T Type. No, it's the first year for the GN.
5. It's not black. The '82's were all painted gray and silver.
6. But all GN's are black. No, the '82's were all painted gray and silver.
7. Where's the turbo? Most '82's weren't turbocharged.
8. But all GN's have a turbo. No, most '82's weren't turbocharged.
9. How many did they make? 215.
10. That's cool! Thanks!

While I don't doubt the post that the old Buick and Pontiac engines from the early 80's are dissimilar, after 1984, they are the same 3800 V6 from GM across all brands using the 3800 V6. That 3800 V6 stayed in production until 1995 when the Series II 3800 V6 was released and the whole shebang changed.

Now, that pesky 305 problem:

305

The 305 variant of the small-block Chevrolet was bored and stroked to 5.0 L (305 in³) with a 3.74 in (95 mm) bore and 3.48 in (88.4 mm) stroke - taken from the 350. Some performance enthusiasts have noted a marked resistance to performance upgrades in the 305[citation needed].

Although the 262 was underpowered (it was not used in other vehicles with a wheelbase greater than 110"), GM engineers decided to increase the 262's bore from its 3.671" diameter to 3.736" while the 3.10" stroke cycle was too short - the solution, incorporating the 3.48" stroke from the 350.

Induction systems included carburetors (both 2 and 4-barrel), throttle-body injection (TBI), tuned-port fuel injection (TPI), and sequential fuel injection (GM Vortec).

After 1996, its usage was limited to light trucks and SUVs as the Vortec 5000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_engines

Now, I was mistaken about the stroke on the 305. But the 305, 3800 and 4.3L are all designs based off of or modified to the Gen I 5.7L small block Chevy V8 design. The 4.3L goes even farther to share the same Vortec design for the heads and intake that the 350 uses.

jcaut

Jstas wrote: »

they switched to the GM corporate V6 which was the same 3800 in Buicks, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, Chevies and Cadillacs. They were based off of the Buick 225 V6 design but bore was increased to match the GM 350ci V8 to make 231ci and that 3800cc displacement.

But the 305, 3800 and 4.3L are all designs based off of or modified to the Gen I 5.7L small block Chevy V8 design.

You're still wrong about the 3800. In all variants, including the Series II and up, turobocharged and supercharged, it's still the good 'ol Buick V6 from roughly '73. Now there were a myriad of changes and improvements over that time period such that one could argue that it is a "new" engine. It's bore is 3.8 inches (like the Buick 350) and the stroke is 3.4 inches (like the 225 V6). It's got basically nothing in common with the GM corporate (all Chevy) 4.3, 305, or 350. Except its 90 degree "V". They call it the corporate 3800, but it's still a Buick.

rskarvan

The 3800 engine was one of GM's finest achievements in the 80's. Great power. Great MPG. Great reliability. Just absolutely outstanding world-class great.

disneyjoe7

Ok fill me in on odd fire and even fire Buick V6 the old 231ci one.

GaryZ06

Bottom line...American Muscle...new or old....Rules

TroyD

Yeah, but for every decent American muscle car, I'll show you three or four cars that are less than inspired. C'mon, the Corvette from 75-96? Ok, the motor may have been ok but the fit and finish was absolutely awful. You couldn't tell the interior of a Corvette from a Chevette.

Again, you won't find anyone more American than me. However, to sit there and try to tell me that the American auto industry is awesome and that there aren't serious issues...it's delusional. I'm sorry, but sit and gloat on cars that were built 40 years ago and the odd decent car....it's that sort of mentality in Detroit that is aiding the **** kicking that Japan has been administering.

As far a skaravan, go ahead and continue to throw your arm out of joint patting yourself on the back for the great job the UAW does.....and I'll LAUGH when the last rites are given to the American auto industry.

EDIT:

For you guys that own/like your cars, that's AWESOME. I would love that to be the case. Gary's Corvette is COOL. I'd LOVE for the American auto industry to rule as it once did. However, until there is a mass reality check, it's not going to happen.

BDT